The Instigator
dan1
Pro (for)
Losing
7 Points
The Contender
Nu-cleur021
Con (against)
Winning
17 Points

: Public high school students in the United States ought not to be required to pass standardized exi

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/20/2009 Category: Society
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 9,381 times Debate No: 9279
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (17)
Votes (4)

 

dan1

Pro

Affirmative Constructive
Resolved: Public high school students in the United States ought not to be required to pass standardized exit exams to graduate

Definitions:
Ought: Used to indicate moral obligation or duty

Standardized exit exams: A test that if passed, graduates you from high school.

Graduate: To advance in a new level of skill, or achievement.

Observation 1: Government is the source of the problem.
Too much government is never good. The great society act is one example, on how government intervention, harms the systems it is trying to help. The act tried to help, education, Medicare, and Medicaid. 1) The Great society act created the public schools we have today, that are atrocious. The act gave the schools 1 billion dollars to reform, but the schools have wasted that money, and the chance of a good system. The government failed to help with education. 2) The Government lists Medicare as a "high-risk" government program in need of reform, in part because of its vulnerability to fraud and partly because of its long-term financial problems. Ronald Reagan states, "If you don't stop Medicare and I don't do it, one of these days you and I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it once was like in America when men were free. George H.W. Bush states, "Described Medicare in 1964 as "socialized medicine." The government made a bad system. This is why we can't have standardized tests because it all stems from the failures of the great society. So we look at the past to predict the future.

Valued Premise: Quality Education,
The only way public schools in the United States will have quality education is by keeping government standards and regulations out. They have already corrupted the public school system, and by implementing standardized test, the government is taking more control, and telling the students what is important to learn, so the students can't make choices for themselves. There are two impacts, 1), by negating the resolution you are letting the government take more control of the public schools when they have already destroyed them. 2), By setting the standardized test as the standard the government is telling the students what is important to learn, therefore not letting the students make their own choices.

Valued Criterion: Fairness,
By administering standardized exit exams, we are being unfair to minorities, tax payers, and students. We strive for fairness, yet this graduation requirement keeps us from achieving this goal. Therefore, public high school students in the United States ought not be required to pass standardized exit exams to graduate. My VC directly links to my value premise because if we are fair to everybody, they are all getting a quality education.

Contention 1: Standardized exit exams are unfair to students in districts that have greater needs and fewer resources

Sub-point A:
There is a better chance that privileged children will pass the tests, because the tests are biased. Many standardized tests are unfair, because they require knowledge and skills more likely to be possessed by children from a privileged background. This discrimination is normally shown in norm-referenced tests where the goal is to spread out the scores often creates questions that require knowledge gained outside of school. This provides a great advantage to those students whose parents are wealthy and well-educated. This is unfair to minorities that do not have these experiences that are needed to pass the tests. For instance, according to CEP figures, on the first attempt to pass the state exit exam last year, there was a gap of more than 40 percentage points between the pass rates of white and black students.

Contention 2: Perverseness in Public Schools
Joel Klein, the man in charge of public schools in NYC, lists perverse incentives, States are rewarded for increasing the proportion of students who pass their exams, but not for raising a child's score from low to nearly good enough to pass, or brilliant. So they are tempted to lavish attention on those on the cusp of passing, while neglecting the weakest and strongest students." As you can see from this quote a school is not rewarded for helping a way below average student to become average. So there is no incentive for the school to do so. So they only help the "on the cusp of passing students" so they can get rewarded, while they neglect the weakest and strongest students. Link this back to my VC of fairness.

Sub-point A: Tests limit schools
Standardized exit exams are extremely expensive. The state Department of Education says that it should cost about a total of 160 million dollars over six years to create and administer these tests. Schools across the US are cutting back on creative programs, such as the arts, sports, and music because of budgets, but they are creating these expensive exams. No one has the right to deprive students of the arts, because they think that these tests are more important. It's not fair that the Department of Education is choosing what the core subjects are. Creativity is an important part of the childhood of students. These exit exams are socially unequal and unfair.

Contention 3: Other nation's way of teaching students
According to the fair test website, the national website for open and fair testing they state," The U.S. is the only economically advanced nation to rely heavily on multiple-choice tests. Other nations use performance-based assessment where students are evaluated on the basis of real work such as essays, projects and activities. Ironically, because these nations do not focus on teaching to multiple choice tests, they even score higher than U.S. students on those kinds of tests." Other nations use these types of methods that require individual thinking and becoming independent and thinking for themselves. Finland teenagers are among the smartest in the world, and they have no exit exams to graduate high school. The public schools make sure that the teachers are well trained and responsible. And instead of pushing kids to GT, they help with the struggling students. Every teacher has a master degree, and the government gives them more freedom. The Finland dropout rate is 4% to US's 25. We need to adopt Finland's method

Contention 4: Standardized tests are useless.
New Jersey must have an educated work force with young men and women who can handle the demands of our technological age. For years, New Jersey has claimed to have the highest graduation rate in the nation. This is an absurd claim. Students in New Jersey high schools are required to pass the High School Proficiency Assessment (HSPA) in order to earn a diploma. According to Commissioner of Education, Lucille Davy, the HSPA is an eighth grade level test. A score of 47 percent is required to pass the language section and 50 percent to pass the mathematics section, scores that would be considered failing in most testing scales. If students fail the HSPA three times, they are eligible to have an alternative assessment conducted, the Special Review Assessment (SRA). Initially, the SRA was meant only for children with severe learning problems that prevented them from taking and passing the regular timed test. It was never meant for everyone who failed the HSPA. But, over time, the SRA was weakened until almost every child that failed the graduation test three times was given the opportunity to take the SRA. In fact, according to Rev. Reginald Jackson of the Black Ministers' Council in testimony he gave before the State Board of Education in April, nearly 20 percent of New Jersey students receive their diploma through the SRA. If we subtract the children who are given this back door diploma, New Jersey ranks in the mid-range of the United States graduation rate, not first. We need a test that means something. If a child does not have a severe physical or mental problem he or she should
Nu-cleur021

Con

I negate the resolution...

As Con, Pro has the burden of proof. He must prove the resolution's benefit outweighs the harms.

I have no qualms with his definitions.

Rebuttals:

Observations:
1. Without the intervention of the government there will be no requirements and rewards for students and schools to achieve, thus schools have no desire to improve the quality of education. Schools wasting their money isn't the government's problem, the school has earned the money through educating students well. The government cannot be the source of the graduation problem because: 1.By eliminated standard exit exams governments cannot observe the flaws of their system 2. Schools have no requirements to meet thus they cannot be ranked and everyone, even the dimwitted ones, can graduate with a poor education by sleeping through class. 3. A majority of poor educated will extremely affect society over time, such as increasing poverty and destroying the middle class.

V: Quality of Education.
-Students, even in high school, have not fully developed judgement to make right choices. For example is doing drugs a right choice? No, it is not yet students still do it because they lack keen judgement. With the government interfering by making certain drugs illegal their "using" rates have gone down. With the school interfering by education students about the harms of drugs and enforcing drug consequences on campus are extreme, thus this dissuades students from doing drugs and harms. In this example I have proven that the government must intervene to secure justice.
-Allowing students to make their own choices it is harmful for 2 reasons: 1. Reasoned above. 2. They do not know what choices are beneficial for the future. For example: We put the baby on the table mixed with sweet foods and other foods that's healthy. Would the baby naturally go for the healthy food or the sweet food? Study shows that babies are more prone to sweet foods. This is a metaphor, the baby=teen; sweet=harmful in disguise; healthy=bright future. If we take out government intervention then teenagers are at the stage of the baby, not knowing what's right and wrong, thus they take what they instantly favor, failure in disguise. So by taking the government out and allowing students to make choices we are destroying them. (Hobbes) 3. People in general are already evil, the government is there to encase this evil; so by removing government intervention we are allowing this "evil" to create chaos (Hobbes).
-Standardized test to graduate actually increases the quality of education because schools are striving to be the top; standardized test allows schools to observe their ranks and form ways to compete and do better to gain more students and by having more students they school receives more and better resources from the government. Basically standardized tests increase the quality of education.
-Refer to observation rebuttal.
Thus with the government doing it's duty and requiring standardized test for graduation they are attempting to lead us into the right direction and this increases the quality of education.

VC: Everyone is getting a quality education. Prove how it's unfair to tax payers. Fairness cannot be used as a VC because VC is an action to achieve V and fairness is a noun. Therefore your VC cannot achieve your V and your V contradicts your VC and position.

Note-Sub-points are used if you have more than one point. Just a tip:)

C1:
-Standardized tests cannot be biased otherwise they'll be sued, states don't want that. Prove that state test requires outside knowledge. You don't need knowledge about "matching price" to pass a test. In CA we take the CAHSEE which includes math to Alg 2 and basic grammar, a majority from my school passed. Standardized tests isn't unfair because students can simply switch schools if they feel their district is too lenient. As school districts see a decreasing amount of students attending they will naturally reform and increase quality to compete for students. As for the CEP evidence this shows that blacks need to work harder, they are not naturally dumb. Therefore the standardized test is crucial for the quality of education.
C2:
-There are numerous ways schools can receive money such as the amount of students attending, the intelligence of the students, etc. Again as described above standard test ranks schools and naturally schools compete for the top to gain students and impacts include increasing the housing market, population, and overall the income of the government to prevent furloughs. An example would be the competing ranks of colleges. Say we don't have standard tests requirements then these way low students would graduate and end up in the streets because they simply cannot comprehend a job application, how did you achieve fairness?
-By educating the average to become more intelligent and adding the already brilliant we have a majority of intelligent citizens that are ready to work. As for the low students they can keep studying until they pass, thus they are able to at least read the job application rather than seeing them half-rotten on the streets in the future.
sub a: High school students are becoming adults we don't require much creativity. Cutting out on arts, sports, and music for tests are justified because after all getting a steady job is more important than playing a guitar on the street hoping for money. Art has reach it's limit, limit's abstract. There could never be another type of art. Sports can be fundraised by players. Children can still express themselves through writing or clubs that are crucial for college acceptance. Tests do not limit schools instead they allow students to seek new alternatives.
C3:
This contention has no link to VC so it falls. If we wish to adopt Finland's method then it isn't just the standard test we must eliminate but our nation's morals, values, and virtue because Finland is different from the U.S. For example if we adopt China's education system then we are forging the future of communism.
C4:
This evidence contradicts with his VC and his position because the language section and math section are so low that poorly educated students can graduate so there is no need to remove the standardized test. My opponent also goes on to describe an alternative, this contradicts again because even if you can't pass the exit exam you will still graduate, thus requiring exit exams achieves fairness (supporting con's position). Not requiring it doesn't achieve fairness because the ones that party late at night that didn't have to sweat to graduate and the ones that study until 3am graduate, meaning both graduates but the one that studies adds more effort into graduation. If you put more effort on a science project, another student simply had his little brother doodle on his board on the last day and in the end you both tied for 1st place, is it fair for the other guy who didn't do anything to win? No, similarly here removing exit exams doesn't achieve fairness. If he wishes to keep this argument then his VC and position are invalid.

In conclusion I have attacked all points made. His value and value criterion contradicts his position. For the reasons above public high school students are required to pass standard exam to graduate. It remains negated. Thank you. I look forward to your rebuttals.
Debate Round No. 1
dan1

Pro

Opponents case:

VP: The standardized exit exams do not give students a quality education, if you look to my contention 4 the exams are a joke. They will find any way to pass you. (Look at C4)

He also says we can not let high school students make their own choices. We have to take out the current government education because they have corrupted the public school system, (look to my C2.) Ronald Reagan states that it is the governments job to protect their citizens, not control their lives. My opponent seems to think that we should control teenagers life, should we tell them what job to get, they might want to be a barber, but has the potential for something better. Then we are leading them to a "better future." We can not control their lives, we are a democratic nation, not a communist one.

We can already measure the students, the standardized tests prove nothing. And the students are already failing, why would they pass the standardized test?

My case:

VC: ok, it's a noun, but it is assumed that I am really saying, enacting fairness to the public schools system. It is unfair to taxpayers because they are paying for these tests that do nothing, and that are useless. And how does my VP contradict my VC. I want a quality education for everyone, and the only way to do that is to be fair to all students, which standardized tests don't provide.

C1: Really? I don't think the kid knows that it is biased. I would like to say my opponent states that standardized tests lead to a quality education, but he never states how, he never states how to achieve his VP, he has no VC, and no contentions.

C2: Obviously, but if the school gets so many failures the schools will lose funding. And he does not attack the point I make that schools don't get rewarded for bringing a below average student to above. They neglect the strongest and weakest students. They get more funding for the on the cusp of passing students, extend that.

C3: It does link, if we use this method we will get quality education. Well I'm not using China's method, I'm using Finland's. And my opponent does not state what is wrong with Finland, extend this argument, for my opponent makes no real argument.

C4: It does not contradict, and when do I say, " There is no need for tests to be removed". My opponent says I state that they will find any way to pass you, and he says that because of this exit exams achieves fairness. What? I say how exit exams are unfair! And his studying example, what if the one who parties is smarter and knows he doesn't need as much studying. And know one is going to study till 3 AM with the current standardized tests. My C4 does not give a counter plan, so My opponent does not give an argument to this, extend

My VC does not contradict with anything, my opponent says it does but with no proof.

Affirmed
Nu-cleur021

Con

So...we're having an actual mock LD. I just got the topic two days ago, so I didn't have a Neg case ready. So I'll run a critique on Pro's if he doesn't mind.

V:
-By saying "they will find any way to pass you", prove that removing the exam will be better. By removing the exam it shows that the government doesn't care about education, thus the world will see U.S as a collapsing country.
-The public school system is linked to the government for resources without the government there is no "public" schools. What will the government get in return for protection? My opponent would like to raise anarchism by removing the government and raising future generations of lawless kids, that wouldn't secure democracy. The government isn't controlling their lives but encouraging students to reach their potential and lead them into the right direction.
-How do we measure students? The standardized test allows them to see how far they must learn to pass, this promotes perseverance.
-He has dropped my argument about school competing for ranks=more students. He cannot bring this back up.

VC: Your V is quality of education, no specific level of quality. VC is Enacting Fairness. By enacting fairness every students get a poor-quality education (budget cuts...). Does it look like poor-quality education for smart and above average parents and students? Thus this contradicts if you say no, if yes I don't know how VC/V will stand.

C1: Prove how it's biased, if it is the state is sued for offending someone. (dropped) Again I'm running a critique. Just a tip dan1: don't use the same V and VC as your opponent, if you do then try to advocate your position achieves it best.

C2: Obviously my opponent is a soph-novice due to his usage of terms, you can only extend whole contentions, V, VC but not subpoints. I attacked both your tag line: Perverseness in Public Schools and impact: Tests limit schools. All you have left is reasoning that has no impact or topicality. I did not have to attack your quote because I leads to nothing. NYC is just one city out of millions across the U.S. The resolution is regarding the whole U.S. Picking one city isn't reliable enough.

C3: This achieves his V but not describe achieving VC. Finland is different from the U.S. My opponent doesn't describe how Finland's education system functions but merely says getting rid of tests will raise student's score. There are more factors than just removing tests, yet he doesn't describe them. Oh and what's easier writing an illegible essay or bubbling circles that 25% chance is right? U.S students are frustrated with SAT essays because a certain SAT group is grades it (do essays after essays wouldn't they get tired?) yet you'll expect students and graders to like it more, multiple choices scantrons are easy, reliable, and efficient to grade? Again I stated by using Finland's method we are casting our morals, virtues, and ideals; he drops this and C3 is invalid.

C4: Prove it. There is no link or explanation saying that taking out exit exams achieves V or VC.
-Now your C4 contradicts VC: You say in NJ if a student has failed HSPA 3 times he is eligible for SRA, 20% graduates passed SRA (the test for the guys who didn't pass HSPA), ("almost every child that failed the graduation test three times was given the opportunity to take the SRA."). So thus by saying 20% graduates through SRA, we have a fair system because nearly everyone graduates, thus there is no need for the removal of tests because Con's position has achieved enacting fairness.
-Pro's VC isn't achieved through C4, C4 achieves Con's position. He has contradicted himself.

By the way as a tip when a mommy judge is present keep offensive arguments for 1AR not 1AC.

Resolution remains negated. Thanks.
Debate Round No. 2
dan1

Pro

In the C4, were wasting money for the bad tests. And it is not fair for someone to fail 3 times and just graduate, and for the guy who passed, and got all A's but they get the same diploma, worth the same amount. It is not fair what I state in my C4.

V: "By removing the exam it shows that the government doesn't care about education, thus the world will see U.S as a collapsing country, completely false. It shows they do care if you look to my contention 4 where they put a crap test in there. And link this to my C3, it will show that the government cares so much, that there willing to adopt another system, and change their ways.

VC: I'm not saying that everyone should be fair, and being fair is giving everyone a bad education, im not arguing for that. I', arguing that tests are not fair, (C1) and Finland's method is.

C1: I do, read my C1, extend

C2: Pretty rude, this is no argument, extend

C3: All he says does not link, extend

C4: Listed on top, extend, does not achieve neg, no contradiction.

My opponent puts no real arguments on my contentions, extend all of them

Affirmed
Nu-cleur021

Con

Please note: Extending is after a drop or when no refutal has been made. And voters, please vote based on arguments not personal opinions, thank you.

I wasn't being rude, just wondering about my opponent's experience. I'm a soph going into JV for anyone who's interested.

Just a point: He has no qualms with my rebuttals to his observation 1, thus the government isn't the source of problems.

Let's begin.

V:
-"And link this to my C3, it will show that the government cares so much, that there willing to adopt another system, and change their ways." Where does it in C3 say U.S will adopt another plan?-> "The U.S. is the only economically advanced nation to rely heavily on multiple-choice tests. Other nations use performance-based assessment where students are evaluated on the basis of real work such as essays, projects and activities. Ironically, because these nations do not focus on teaching to multiple choice tests, they even score higher than U.S. students on those kinds of tests." Where does it say in C3 "government will change," prove it??? If you claim in C4 that the government does care (to educate) then by removing it we lost that strong support, thus our education system will suffer more severely. And if the government does care then it would not corrupt the system. Value falls.

VC: Where in the resolution states we ought to adopt a new method? You don't need a counter-plan. I am arguing exit tests are fair, yet you have not met your burden. I have refuted C1 and you also dropped a point I made and still didn't attempt to mention it. Again resolution doesn't state we should implement a method.

C1: No reasoning why it isn't biased thus you cannot extend. You also dropped my point about states being sued for being a racist on exit exams. I have refuted sentence by sentence on this. He cannot extend because he fails to prove it is biased. This contradicts his C4 because if it exit exams are biased then they will keep out certain people, but in C4 he states everyone graduates even if they didn't pass.
Big point before: "Standardized tests isn't unfair because students can simply switch schools if they feel their district is too lenient. As school districts see a decreasing amount of students attending they will naturally reform and increase quality to compete for students."

C2: How can you extend if you have no impact and ideal? All he has left is reasoning. It's like I took out the wheels and the engine of his car, can it still move without those parts? No, similarly here his C2 has no purpose. I have also attacked the reasoning that he did not refute: schools have other means to receive money from the government, receiving money like his example is a small fraction. C2 has no point, no rebuttals, no purpose.

C3: Son, please learn about the basics of LD before embarrassing yourself. You cannot extend because it has not link. Dan1 has provided no reason to why it does links to VC. In LD contentions must link to VC and VC is the best way to achieve VP. He has also failed to recognize my direct argument about implementing Finland. We must cast aside our pride, morals, virtue, and ideals that we shed years of blood on if we implement Finland's example. Finland is different in terms of history, morals, population, allies, and ideals. Example Finland was ruled by Russia thus it still has communists ideals, when me adopt it we are also adopting some communists ideals. Another example U.S' population 307,230,000, Finland 5,342,344; obviously Finland has a smaller population thus more teachers are able to focus on them.
Anyway without a link to the VC it cannot achieve his value, it either falls or if he wishes to keep this contention then his VC isn't the best option to achieve his VP, thus his VC is invalid because there's a better way to achieve is value.

C4: You agreed with my point! In the end they both get the same diploma with the tests thus it fair.
-They both took the test and in the end got the same diploma that worth the same; very fair don't you agree?
-By taking out the exit exam, this only makes the system easier, thus more people do not have to study to graduate leading to an increase in poverty rate, Con's impact (no attacks on that point).
Achieves fairness at one point, yet in the ultimate end...doesn't. Con's ultimate end is the impact, reason why my augment wins.
-R1 VC: "We strive for fairness, yet this graduation requirement keeps us from achieving this goal"-C4 says everyone graduates even if they fail, and VC says tests keep students from graduating. Don't you see that it contradicts?

"Extending all of them"...hehehhe I attacked every point made how can you possibly extend them all.

Voting issues:
1. Dropped some points I made. Never attempted to mention them.
2. R3 was filled with nothing, no C1,2,3 refutals.
3. C3 has no link, he advocates C3 stays thus his VC, best way to achieve V, is invalid.
4. C2 no weighing impact, no purpose.
5. Con attacked C1 numerous times, Pro fails to refute any. I have proven exit tests aren't biased. His C1 also contradicts C4.
6. C4 contradicts VC's goal.
7. Overall he had a contradictory case.
8. I have proven my burden. Pro has not.
9. Clearly exit exams' benefits outweighs its harms.

Reasoned above vote Con. Thanks. Dan1 good luck on your actual H.S debate.
Debate Round No. 3
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Nu-cleur021 7 years ago
Nu-cleur021
V rebuttal means is by removing exit exams it shows that the government has lost interest in education thus the new U.S world image would look like a careless nation.
Posted by m93samman 7 years ago
m93samman
Con: Round 2

"V:
-By saying "they will find any way to pass you", prove that removing the exam will be better. By removing the exam it shows that the government doesn't care about education, thus the world will see U.S as a collapsing country."

so if that proves that removing the exam will be better, isn't that supporting pro's burden?
remember- the contention states: Public high school students in the United States ought **NOT** to be required to pass standardized exit exams. "Not" confuses the debate, but switching sides will kill you.
Posted by m93samman 7 years ago
m93samman
Con: you say in the last round that pro's C1 contradicts C4, and C4 contradicts V, etc.

How does C1: standardized tests are unfair

Contradict C4: standardized tests are useless

???
Pro: All you did in round 3 was

extend, extend
extend, extend

explain why. and explain how con didn't refute your contentions.
Posted by RoyLatham 7 years ago
RoyLatham
No references were used by either side. That's a serious defect in a debate full of assertions about what works and what doesn't. Way too much arguing about LD constructs.
Posted by dan1 7 years ago
dan1
lol, thanks. what level of debate are you in, and what did u think of my case?
Posted by Nu-cleur021 7 years ago
Nu-cleur021
Hooray!
-Dan1 you posted yourself as 19 yrs old and you're in 8th grade!!
-You broke at harvard...impressive.
-It's great to know you are starting early. Keep it up.
Posted by dan1 7 years ago
dan1
yea when I did my rebut all i did not feel like doing it
Posted by dan1 7 years ago
dan1
I broke at Harvard last year, when i was in 7th grade
Posted by dan1 7 years ago
dan1
I started early
Posted by Nu-cleur021 7 years ago
Nu-cleur021
-How could you be in H.S level LD if ur in 8th grade?
-Incoming JV level, impacts are the weighing criterion of the argument. Very crucial. Without it what's the purpose of your reasoning?
-Who told you that you could extend subpoints? Subpoint are part of contentions. When a whole contention falls so does the subpoints.
-You repeated that point. I have attacked it.
-My V argument is a false alternative??? You dropped several points on the government's purpose, thus you agreed on my attacks on your value.
-1 AC is for a load, not stocked, aff arguments fill time up with reasoning, evidence, etc. Mommy judges would prefer a easy to follow debate. By have offensive and defensive arguments in 1AC you will confuse the judge because some AR arguments would have nothing to do with your opponent's case. (personal experience)

These are just some tips when you reach H.S debate. If you thought I was being rude, I apologize I was only trying to help your aff case.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by scottkayla34 7 years ago
scottkayla34
dan1Nu-cleur021Tied
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Vote Placed by LDdebaterCG 7 years ago
LDdebaterCG
dan1Nu-cleur021Tied
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Vote Placed by RoyLatham 7 years ago
RoyLatham
dan1Nu-cleur021Tied
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Vote Placed by krazzybrandon 7 years ago
krazzybrandon
dan1Nu-cleur021Tied
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