The Instigator
Kylar
Pro (for)
Tied
6 Points
The Contender
Lexus
Con (against)
Tied
6 Points

Puerto Rico, State of Jefferson, North Colorado and DC should be made states

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/14/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 578 times Debate No: 68317
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (3)

 

Kylar

Pro

Hey all it's Kylar. I am offering a debate on whether these places should be made US States. I think they should be because it means a stronger economy and more stars on the flag, among other things. I'll explain more later :). Let's have a good debate!
Kylar
Lexus

Con

I'm going to go ahead and assume that first round is acceptance, so I accept.

Just to clarify, pro has most of the BoP, and must show that every single one of those proposed states should become part of the US. As con, I only have to prove that one of the proposed states should not be added to the union, and thus negating the resolution.

Here are some definitions, since I don't think that many people know what the State of Jefferson is.
  • Puerto Rico: a self-governing commonwealth associated with the United States occupying the island of Puerto Rico
  • State of Jefferson: a proposed U.S. state that would span the contiguous, mostly rural area of southern Oregon and northern California
  • Northern Colorado: a name for a region in the state of Colorado, and a proposed state in the northeastern portion of Colorado
  • DC: Washington, D.C.; the capital of the United States.
  • State: a nation or territory considered as an organized political community under one government; an organized political community or area forming part of a federal republic.
Debate Round No. 1
Kylar

Pro

I want to thank Lexus for accepting my debate challenge first of all :). This should be a good one :). Ok, so looking at these proposed US States, here's why I think it's better in the long run to grant them statehood. Puerto Rico has been a territory of the United States of America since 1898 during the Spanish-American War. They have had several referendums on statehood, and in the most recent in 2012, 61% chose statehood (CNN). This proves Puerto Rico's people, at least the majority desire to have their flag as a star on the United State flag. Now in the case of the State of Jefferson, this one has been around for a very long time. Granted, it would be a hassle with state boundraries, but the State of Jefferson would finally have it's own state and this disagreemant over poltics and borders would cease. North Colorado, a proposed state of 11 counties in Colorado is mostly Republican, the rest of Colorado is mainly Democrat. Granting statehood to North Colorado would elimnate at least some of the politcal diffrences and issues there. Now in the case of DC, you have an interesting proposal. DC is a city, but it also has all the government offices and such, and statehood would establish who really owns these buildings and such. I'll elaborate more on these arguments as we go on :).
Thanks again for the debate Lexus :)
Lexus

Con

Before I begin, I want to thank Kylar for instigating this debate. I'm going to start the round off by making my own constructive case, then go on to refute some of what my opponent said, since the rules never specified if this round was to be used solely for constructive cases or not. Each of the "parts" that I use in my first part of the round are going to be parts of my constructive case, just as an FYI.
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Part I: Washington D.C.
Our founding fathers never meant for Washington, D.C. to be a state. In their minds, this would grant more power to an individual state (D.C.) than to the others (such as Nebraska or California), since they are in charge of the central government. State powers and federal powers ought to be separate, since the establishment of federalism is that very basic concept. One could argue about the whole "No Taxation Without Representation!" deal that is going on in the D.C. area, but we can actually off-set this entire argument by just amending the constitution to allow D.C. to have a representative and a couple senators, since they actually ought to have some representation.
Another reason that I believe that Washington, D.C. should not become its own sovereign state is because it is such a small area, that it would be pretty bad to make it its own state. If we should make Washington, D.C. a state based on population, we should make "North New York City" and "South New York City" states too, because that is just as logical. Having a city-state will lead to the erosion of federalism, which come on, we don't want, since that is basically the erosion of the basic idea of the united states. Bad, bad, bad.
Part II: Puerto Rico.
I want to start off this little "part" of my constructive speech by giving you this statistic: 14% of Puerto Ricans are out of work [1]. Now, do we want to give statehood to a territory that would bring down this great nation with such high unemployment numbers and such high poverty rates? Do we want to gain statehood to a territory that would lead to the downfall of this nation? NO!
One of the main points that people have about granting statehood to Puerto Rico is that they ought to have the right to vote. Yes, I totally agree! BUT, we can give the right to vote to territories WITHOUT bringing down this nation! We can just pass a bill in the congress that says, "hey, puerto rico, you can vote. thanks for waiting <3". Another point that I want to make, is that establishing statehood to Puerto Rico would mean that we would be cutting out their culture by enforcing the Westernization and America-nization to them.
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Rebuttals:
Puerto Rico: Yeah, you are correct in saying that 61% of people in Puerto Rico want to be a state, but that doesn't mean that it's a good idea. 61% of people could say "we should kill all blacks", but that doesn't mean that we should in fact do that. Your logic doesn't really follow through, unless you can provide a card that says that 61% of already STATE-BORN Americans want Puerto Rico want to be a state.
North Colorado: Because you like ending political disputes, I assume that you're in favor of gerrymandering? Just because it would reduce debate on the state level does not mean that it is beneficial to the state. You have some okay logic in saying that only 11 counties are republican, and thus we should make those 11 counties their own state, but then that would mean that we should make "Omaha, Nebraska" it's own state, since it tends to vote democrat in a red state. Logic = false.
State of Jefferson: Thanks for conceding that the work that it would take to make this a state would be VERY much. Besides that, it's just not the morally right thing to do. "Trololol california im takin ur land that u rightfully own trol!" is basically what you are trying to do, and that's immoral. Taking away federally given things is not good, so you cannot stand in affirmation of granting statehood to the State of Jefferson.

[1]: http://www.tradingeconomics.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Kylar

Pro

Thank you Lexus for your great insight and for debating me on this topic first of all :). Now where to begin...oh here we go.
DC is a very small area, that I can conceed to :). They are a very wealthy area, but also a city as well. A city state of the USA could very well be problematic. However, I think that they should also be given statehood because they could benifit the US economy in the long run.
Puerto Rico does have a high poverty rate this is true, but I think if they became a state we could help lift them out of it slowly but surley. It might take a while, but I think we can do it, together as good Amercians.
In the case of North Colorado, I do like resolving political problems, and I think Colorado needs reformed. The dividing of Colorado would help ease the tensions of poltics there, for instance, the recent governor's race.
The State of Jefferson would take a lot of work, yes. They would really create a lot of border disputes, however, it could be resolved by Congress. They might yet be able to be a viable US State. I will explain more in the next rounds.
Thanks again for the debate, I'm enjoying it, and you have a lot of good points.
Lexus

Con

This round is just going to be a bunch of rebuttals, I don't really see a reason to make any more constructive "parts".
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Rebuttals:
" A city state of the USA could very well be problematic."
Thanks for conceding to that fact. Remember, you have to prove that every single one of the "states" in the resolution ought to be made states, instead of just most of them, or I win by default.
"Puerto Rico does have a high poverty rate this is true, but I think if they became a state we could help lift them out of it slowly but surely."
Mississippi has a pretty high unemployment rate, and as part of the Union, they ought to have lower unemployment rates/poverty rates, since automatically being a state equals having low unemployment rates. Yeah, no.
" good Americans. "
inb4 NYC
"In the case of North Colorado, I do like resolving political problems, and I think Colorado needs reformed"
OK, I live in a pretty republican state, but I live in a kind of liberal city (Lincoln, NE, just for a fun fact), so should we make that its own state, just to resolve political conflict? You also haven't answered my question, are you in favor of gerrymandering to resolve conflict?
"The State of Jefferson would take a lot of work, yes. They would really create a lot of border disputes"
#Concession
"I will explain more in the next rounds."
You should just make 1 huge constructive speech instead of making it throughout the rounds... that would help a LOT.
"Thanks again for the debate, I'm enjoying it, and you have a lot of good points."
I'm loving this debate, thanks for instigating it. You make some good (but refutable!) points, looking forward to more rounds.
Debate Round No. 3
Kylar

Pro

First off thank you again for this debate Lexus :) and I am sorry it took so long to post my round 4 arguments. Ok, so let's look at what you posted :).

I feel that Puerto Rico could be lifted out of poverty if we all pitch in. America could bond together under the spirit of brotherhood and lift them out of poverty, if they were granted statehood. They would benifit in the long term, Puerto Rico's citizens could finally have a say in who becomes the US President, and who their senators and governors are, these are appointed by the president. (CIA). In the case of DC, they are a city, yes that is true. But they hold most of the government offices, and they are very wealthy. Statehood to DCwould also in the long term benifit the country, so Maryland and Virgania aren't always fighting over who owns it. In the case of North Colorado, no I am not in favor of gerrymandering at all. I just think it would solve a lot of political problems there. North Colorado voted for Bob Beauprez for the most part in the most recent governor election, but he lost due to the liberals in the southern half of the state, which I conceed, is fair and square poltics. However, Colorado has had a number of political issues, if the North were to become their own state, this could cease easily. The State of Jefferson has a legit case for statehood also. They have no representation in some of their counties in the California State Senate. (state of jefferson website). They need to become their own state so they can have a true democracy.
I rest my case for Round 4.
Thanks again for the debate, I am really enjoying it :)
Lexus

Con

Thanks for this debate. I'm going to be busy in the following few days, so it might be possible that I have to forfeit the last round due to time constraints. If that does happen, I apologize in advance.
------
"I feel that Puerto Rico could be lifted out of poverty if we all pitch in"
We don't have the moral obligation to bring Puerto Rico to prosperity when we have our own states (Mississippi!) failing in terms of educational ability, corruption, and (get this!) financial stability. We can't really say that we should help foreign, proposed states when we cannot help our own states. This point of yours is negated.
"In the case of DC, they are a city, yes that is true. But they hold most of the government offices, and they are very wealthy"
Okay, two things:
1) A city state in the union will not work. Arguing in favor of DC statehood when they have less people than NYC is illogical. If we allow DC to get statehood, then we should grant all other big cities to do this as well.
2) One of the main reasons why DC statehood would blow is because of the fact that they hold most of our government offices. If we grant DC statehood, they would have an unfair advantage over the other states. We are not going to be offering some states the ability to have more influence over the senate than the others, that is immoral. Point negated.
"Statehood to DCwould also in the long term benifit the country, so Maryland and Virgania aren't always fighting over who owns it"
They don't fight over it. DC is its own "sovereign" district.
" In the case of North Colorado, no I am not in favor of gerrymandering at all"
Then you are not in favor of North Colorado, since this state would follow the exact definition of gerrymandering. Not a very good idea.
"North Colorado voted for Bob Beauprez for the most part in the most recent governor election, but he lost due to the liberals in the southern half of the state, which I conceed, is fair and square poltics"
Good for them. But we're not debating whether they voted their own way, we're debating whether they ought to be their own state. I guess you are in favor of a single-party country, since that would resolve political conflict, as well!
"They have no representation in some of their counties in the California State Senate"
Good for them, but since they have such sparse populations, I don't see this as a bad thing. The San Antonio area should have representation, but a county with 5 people should not have equal representation in the senate.
"state of jefferson website"
Very very biased source, don't use these in debates since they are so one sided.
"They need to become their own state so they can have a true democracy."
We're not a democracy. We're a republic. True democracy doesn't work on a scale such as this. Don't be crazy.
-----
Rest my case for round 4. I have sufficiently proved all of the proposed states should not be granted statehood, so I win this debate. I apologize again if I forfeit the next round due to time constraints. Thanks for instigating this debate, as well as understanding.
Debate Round No. 4
Kylar

Pro

Again, thank you for a great debate, and great arguments :). There is a good chance of you winning, this I conceed and accept willingly :). I think I have made my case quite clear in the 4 rounds previously :). Yet, I will close with the following arguments for each proposd state.
Puerto Rico: your arguments are just fine, and I like them :). I see no reason to elaborate here.
State of Jefferson: you are correct, too much bias, but I thought it was a legit source. I think they should make a state to solve border disputes.
DC: Correct, I forgot they were a district. Silly me, i lose there.
North Colorado: I agree...I don't intend to start a political problem, I just think it will resolve some things.

Thanks again for the debate, we should do another one sometime :) I had a good time.
No problem if you can't do round 5
Lexus

Con

As mentioned, I cannot do round 5 due to time constraints. Voters, give PRO conduct because I have to forfeit a round.

However, I would like to mention that I am winning the debate because I have efficiently proved that at least one of the proposed states should not be added to the union, and thus winning the debate., which is all that I had to do, as CON.

Thanks Kylar for a fun debate, I really enjoyed this resolution and debating you.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by 16kadams 2 years ago
16kadams
PR's population is only 3.6 million. SO 50,000 of them are out of work. There are about 9 million unemployed Americans. So unemployment would increase 0.005%. DOWNFALL OF THE COUNTRY. If you use the u6 unemployment rate, it would only increase 0.0005%. WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE FROM PUERTO RICAN STATEHOOD OH NO AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

(note the 50,000 number is likely an overestimate)
Posted by The-Voice-of-Truth 2 years ago
The-Voice-of-Truth
Sounds interesting.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by chrisjachimiak 2 years ago
chrisjachimiak
KylarLexusTied
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Total points awarded:43 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro- Made more convincing arguments, due to the fact that he really convinced me that Puerto Rico, North Colorado, and DC should be states. Con- Had more reliable sources and I found some spelling mistakes in pro so had to give con spelling as well.
Vote Placed by Leo.Messi 2 years ago
Leo.Messi
KylarLexusTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: conduct goes to pro for last round.
Vote Placed by Paleophyte 2 years ago
Paleophyte
KylarLexusTied
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Total points awarded:13 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct to Pro as Con forfeited the final round. Con made more thorough arguments in most instances.