The Instigator
lightskinnedblackkid
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
16kadams
Con (against)
Winning
13 Points

Puerto Rico should become a state

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
16kadams
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/31/2011 Category: Politics
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,308 times Debate No: 20143
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (8)
Votes (3)

 

lightskinnedblackkid

Pro

I affirm that the nearly 4 million U.S. citizens residing in the unicorporated territory of Puerto Rico deserve to to be full represented in their country and be granted admission into the union.

First round is acceptance the others are arguments.
16kadams

Con

my moms from there. I accept
Debate Round No. 1
lightskinnedblackkid

Pro

I thank my opponent for accepting. Now, let me begin by going into further detail. In 2012 a two part referendum will be held in Puerto Rico to help determine the Island's ultimate status. The first part will ask do they wish to retain the status qua or a non-territorial status. if more people check the second option a second vote will be held on November 6, to asking whether the people would prefer statehood, free association, or independence. If the second vote is required it it highly plausible that they will choose statehood. I believe if they do congress should honor this desire.

The people of Puerto Rico have been U.S. citizens for since 1917 yet, they are not represent in congress and cannot vote for president. They are effectively second-class citizens. If we are to preach democracy and fairness across the world we must be fair to all of our citizens.
16kadams

Con

My arguments would refute yours. If I have space I will refute:

C1: ALLOWING THEM IN WOULD LEAD TO ECONOMIC DETRIMENT




Puerto rico has high unemployment and allowing them it would increase the deficit through wellfare cost. [1]

The puerto rican delegation would be twice the size of west vigrginia so they would have leverage to increase cost towards them, increasing costs further. [1]

Their income per capita is 8,509$, thats much less then the american average, allowing them in would increase poverty rates. If allowed to be a state they would have the 25th biggest state via population, also that would lead to more social security costs, increasing deficits. Money spent on puerto rico is money that cannot be spent in other areas i.e medicare and medicade and other programs that help the other 50 states. We cannot afford a 51st state. [2]


C2: Language

Their language is english AND spanish.



Many people in PR (puerto rico) do not know english and the only official language of america is english. This is a fundamental problem. [3]

Only 20% of PR's population speak english fluently [3]

the language used in PR houses is spanish 95% of the time [3]



C3: Politics

People might like this argument (if your democrat) but it's the principle of the thing:


Pr would have at least 5 members to congress and PR is predomonatly liberal. [4]

But a PR commonwealth rep dissagrees (so this is a benifit to republicans):

78% are pro life, 91% oppose SSM, and 30% are evangelicals. They also supoort spending and tax cuts [4]

So it may go either way, but it would without a doubt help someone, hurting swaying the other 50 states views. in my opinion it would be a republican benifit.

C4: they are already considered americans

They are already US citizens that can travel in and out of all 50 states, except their wellfare programs are local not american federal. [5]

So they are US citizens, but don't drain our already empty treasury.




C5: the people of PR do not want it.

1950 PR vote-didn't pass [6]

1967-fail
1998-fail
recent-you yourself said they denied it the fist time.


Polls:

In the last status plebiscite, in 1993, 48 percent of voters chose
commonwealth status, 46 percent said they supported statehood and most
of the rest favoured independence. [7]

So most support independence, so be it.



Refutations:


"The people of Puerto Rico have been U.S. citizens for since 1917 yet, they are not represent in congress and cannot vote for president. They are effectively second-class citizens. If we are to preach democracy and fairness across the world we must be fair to all of our citizens."

Sicne they aren't currenlty a state then they do not get either, they get noon voting reps that try to persuade congress. I don't know if that works but they have something. [8] they have 1.


Your first argument isn't an argument it is just backround. It is just an I hope they vote state and other backround info.

==end==

SOurces:

http://englishfirst.org...;[1]

http://www.nopuertoricostatehood.com...;[2]

http://www.nationalreview.com...;[3]

http://www.prfaa.com...;[4]

http://www.washingtontimes.com...;[5]


http://en.wikipedia.org...;[6]


http://www.latinamericanstudies.org...;[7]


http://www.house.gov...;[8]




















Debate Round No. 2
lightskinnedblackkid

Pro

1.) It has been shown time and time again that allow a territory in as a state causes a period of marked economic growth. If they were to become a state they would also have to pay federal income tax.

2) The United States of America does NOT have an official language. English is the de facto language of the country but, it is, by no means, federally recognized as the official language and this thus cannot be used to deny them admission to the union of the United States of America.

3). That is a terrible argument. Whether or not they would be more likely to vote democrat or republican should have no barring in this situation. At most, however, it could be said that Puerto Rico would be swing state. Mississippi, the poorest of the current 50 states is a solidily red state.

4.) Opinions change over time. With each referendum statehood has gotten more and more votes. Last time it was only narrowly defeated. I see no reason to put a cap on how many votes they can have. If they want to stay the same they will but, if they want statehood (or independence) it should be made so.

5.) They have a non-voting commissioner in congress. He may express what is thought could help Puerto Rico, but, he cannot vote and thus truly has no say in matters relating to Puerto Rico.
16kadams

Con

" It has been shown time and time again that allow a territory in as a state causes a period of marked economic growth."

Yes because the areas we adopt have a lot of natural reasources. PR would be the least wealthy (sounds nicer) state which would drain our social programs, and raise debt. Places we have adopted example Utah have abundant reasources and other benifits, PR is a bad state as it's economy struggles.

" The United States of America does NOT have an official language"

I was hoping you would say this:

In a new twist to the contentious immigration debate, the Senate has voted to designate English the national language of the United States, and to effectively ban federal government ordinances and services in any language other than English. [1]

So yeah recently this happened.

Also language can be a reason to keep them out, if lets say the congo (if their crime and economy improve) become a common wealth and then try to be a state, then we could say "how would you function? You don't speak english." It is a good reason.

"That is a terrible argument"

Not to be rude, but your arguments aren't better. Also it is a good argument as PR would totally effect this country, and out do our other 50 states. It would give republicans free wins (by small margins) which is good lol but isn't good as I think that if it cancels out the other 50 states, then it isn't worth it.

"Opinions change over time."

Yes so do cars but is it not fair to say a Jaguar Xk2 is better than a toyota prius and will be for a long time. Also so what? At the time the people said no, the elected goverment was elected to do what the voters want, so them ignoring them is bad. So at the time my argument stands. In a few years then we converse. It is a valid argument until it changes. Also you forget on the second ballot they have independant country or state. ONLY if it passes the first one, which it won't because of the poll, and IF it gets to the second and then it has a fight for independence, and the commonwealth people will go and vote independance as common wealth is more independant then state, and they would go with their 2nd best thing. So it would be unlikely that it would pass. [2]


"They have a non-voting commissioner in congress. He may express what is thought could help Puerto Rico, but, he cannot vote and thus truly has no say in matters relating to Puerto Rico."

Yes but why do they need to vote as the federal goverment doesn't affect puerto rico that often:

do not pay federal income taxes on wages earned in Puerto Rico. [2]


C1: economic detriment



unemployment:
15.7
[3]


In May 2007, local economists expressed serious concerns when it was revealed that the Puerto Rico public debt equaled 76% of its gross national product (GNP), making it one of the most indebted countries by percentage in the world, [4]

we really don't need an extra ounce of debt



C2: Language

well proven. Here's how it hurts:

Language is the most obvious difference between the US and Puerto Rico. That's the reason, perhaps, that both conservatives and liberals speak about the linguistic differences as the evident cultural difference between both societies. However, the problem is deeper than this. Some statehood advocates say that in a few decades, the Latin minority will dominate US society, requiring some states to have Spanish as an official language in some states. This would lead us closer to the United States. [6]





C3: Politics

proven that it would affect

C4: already considered americans

proven, but I will do more as some still probably would deny:


Puerto Rico is a territory (Commonwealth) of the United States of America and Puerto Ricans have common citizenship, currency and defense. Although Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens, residents of Puerto Rico pay no federal income tax, nor can they vote in presidential elections. As citizens, Puerto Ricans do not require a work visa (also known as green cards) to live and/or work in the United States. Over 2 million Puerto Ricans live in the United States, primarily in the northeast. [5]

proven.


C5: the people don't want it

PROVEN and he conceded the poll to me.

==conclusion==

My mom is from puerto rico, I am in a devils advocate, but based on the debate so far my arguments are stronger and supported with facts. Vote con!



sources

http://www.independent.co.uk...;[1]
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com...;[2]
http://www.bls.gov...;[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org...;[4]
http://www.topuertorico.org...;[5]
http://www.prosario-2000.0catch.com...;[6]
Debate Round No. 3
lightskinnedblackkid

Pro

1.) None of your links worked and I could not find anything about the senate making English the national language so unless you repost I considering it false and hope the voters do as well.

2.) Puerto Rico actually does have pockets of valuable natural resources a la silver.

3.) As I have already stated Puerto Rico would most likely fall under the category of a swing state. That is obvious by its three main political parties which coincidentally each advocate a different political future for Puerto Rico. Here is something my opponent might like - the PNP the party that advocates for statehood is conservative and they hold the majority of power in Puerto Rico right now. If anything that indicates that Puerto Rico could be a red state but, as I stated earlier whether they lean republican or democrat should not have any barring in this situation.

4.) English is mandatory for all Puerto Ricans from grades 9-12 and in college. It use to be from grades k-12 but was changed in the 70s. Although, language should not affect their status they could simply make it mandatory in all grades again. It sounds like a nice compromise. You also stated having them might help the Latin minority to dominate the country and cause some states to make Spanish their official language. Considering that Spanish ALONG WITH English are already the de facto languages of several states including your own state of New Mexico it seems irrelevant for you to argue this. I also find it strange how you seem to be threatened by the growing Latino presence when you yourself are Latino but, that should be saved for another time.

5.) If the people really don't want it then it shouldn't get past the first vote and you have nothing to worry about. IF, however, they do get to the second vote it is almost guaranteed that they will choose statehood. That choice should be honored by congress so as to finally provide representation to these disenfranchised citizens. On a side note there are actually more like 4 million Puerto Ricans living on the mainland not 2 million.

I think I have broken down all of my opponents arguments and shown why Puerto Rico should be granted statehood if its people choose it. Vote pro.
16kadams

Con

aw my links failed :( all of them worked for me except 1. Here it is again: http://www.independent.co.uk...

ok lets do this.

1) only one didn't work. at least I tried to have sources. You had none voters I deserve those 2 points.

2) you have provided no source for this claim I have, your statements are unsupported. All of mine where supported second round so even if the links don't work I still have a source earlier. Yes there are 3 main parties, there are 2 in the US, but that doesn't affect voting. Texas goes republican even though they can choose from many other parties. So having multiple parties means nothing.

3) According to the 2000 Census, 60.0% of the population attained a high school degree or higher level of education, and 18.3% has a bachelor's degree or higher. [1]
So sure they learn it in school but 40% don't finish high school.
Unlike most schools in the United States, public school instruction in Puerto Rico is conducted entirely in Spanish. [1]

So most of their classes are Spanish, and public schools aren't that good, as they use the same US system. [1]

4) lol skipped the silver thing.

also what a fail because they have silver and their economy is terrible. Joining america won't make it better. So their economy now will just translate over, and I do not want another few million poor people in this country, and those rates would make our economy seem bad. And their debt that we would have to take would be bad.

5) It won't pass the first vote as the polls suggest. Also the pro-common wealth people would just go vote for independence in the second vote, the combined force would overdo your remarks. It will not become a state. (through them anytime soon anyway).

6) His conclusion says he has broken down my arguments, so fact less statements break me down? Not to be rude but really? (use sources it helps). You have not broken down my arguments. Vote con.

I have proven my arguments with sources. I do not need to add on as he didn't have counter sources. Vote PRO as I have defeated his arguments once, twice, and a 3rd time. I used sources and logic. My opponent used...fat less statements. Remember vote pro.

sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org... [1]
Debate Round No. 4
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
hey pro want to learn debate tips?
Posted by lightskinnedblackkid 5 years ago
lightskinnedblackkid
Well looks like I'm going to loss good debate though, and it will help with any others I am involved in.
Posted by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
I convinced myself
Posted by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
Yay!
Posted by Mr.Infidel 5 years ago
Mr.Infidel
Yes. I use to agree with PRO, but after you provided your evidence, I thought that you are correct. This is one of the few debates that actually changed my views. Excellent work.
Posted by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
you agree with me now infidel :)
Posted by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
I will pwn
Posted by MasterKage 5 years ago
MasterKage
So you mean become a state in the United States. You should probably add that to the resolution.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by imabench 5 years ago
imabench
lightskinnedblackkid16kadamsTied
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Total points awarded:15 
Reasons for voting decision: con's arguments regarding the economic strain statehood would put on the us could not be overcome along with many other arguments, sources worked fine for me, spelling goes to pro though and conduct was tied
Vote Placed by Lordknukle 5 years ago
Lordknukle
lightskinnedblackkid16kadamsTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: CON provide empirical evidence. PRO didn't
Vote Placed by Mr.Infidel 5 years ago
Mr.Infidel
lightskinnedblackkid16kadamsTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro failed to respond adaquetly to any of CON'S arguments. Likewise, pro failed to adaquetly defend his arguments.