The Instigator
RacH3ll3
Pro (for)
Losing
5 Points
The Contender
Ragnar_Rahl
Con (against)
Winning
7 Points

Puppy mills should be illegalized

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Ragnar_Rahl
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/19/2009 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 10,419 times Debate No: 8359
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (9)
Votes (2)

 

RacH3ll3

Pro

Hello and welcome :)

---DEFINITIONS-----

Puppy mills: large scale commercial dog breeding facility that operates under substandard conditions regarding the well-being of dogs in their care.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
illegalized: to make illegal
http://dictionary.reference.com...
-----

I will say my arguments in each round. I am PRO. You are CON. I must prove to you why they should be illegal, and you must attack my points. You may also, prove to me why we need them.

Thank you to whomever accepts this :)
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

The purpose of laws is the protection of rights from violation by other parties.

Politics, the field in which rights are discussed, begins when one realizes the impact other rational creatures tend to have on one's life. Any discussion of "rights," the proper relations between rational creatures, must begin with the goal of one's own life. We start simply, with A is A- with life as the goal of rights, the first right and the source of all others is the right to life, that is, one defends one's life from others, and since they are rational, that means they will defend theirs from you if you attempt to encroach. They will do so by eliminating the threat, i.e. you. Thus you do not deny them their right to life, so as to facilitate their denying you yours. This changes when they deny yours first, as they prove themselves irrational by doing so, and remove any future causality between your attacks on them and theirs on you. Indeed they reverse it, because you now have to kill them or otherwise interfere with their life in order to preserve your right to your own.

The rights of liberty and property are derived from this, because with the requirement of the conforming of one's actions to the use of a reasoning mind to live, one's actions cannot be conformed to the dictates of force instead in order to live; and with the requirement to produce things necessary to one's existence, one's production must be reliably available in order to live.

In summary rights require two things: Rationality, i.e. they are a code of action that applies to other rational beings, and Reciprocity, for treating beings in a manner consistent with rights that they do not treat you with is not only not helpful to your life, it's harmful to it.

Now, where do puppies fit into this framework? No puppy has ever demonstrated rationality nor reciprocity, as such, none can have the protection of the term "rights." And so, it cannot justly have the protection of the law.
Debate Round No. 1
RacH3ll3

Pro

Thank you, and very original way of debating :)

"In summary rights require two things: Rationality, i.e. they are a code of action that applies to other rational beings, and Reciprocity, for treating beings in a manner consistent with rights that they do not treat you with is not only not helpful to your life, it's harmful to it"

I took this part of your round so I can sum it up in one sentance: Basically you are saying: "puppies [do not, or should not] have rights, as they are not humans and they are just animals that can't help your life"

Actually, dogs (as well as other animals) have laws protecting them.
Animals cruelty is not only wrong; It's against the LAW. These include: animal cruelty, hoarding, canned hunts, cock fighting, neglect, tethering, and many more.
http://www.aspca.org...
If what you have written above is true, then why are there so many laws pertaining to animals? You may say: animal cruelty and puppy mills are not the same.
Animal cruelty: "Animal cruelty encompasses a range of behaviors harmful to animals, from neglect to malicious killing. Most cruelty investigated by humane officers is unintentional neglect that can be resolved through education. Intentional cruelty, or abuse, is knowingly depriving an animal of food, water, shelter, socialization, or veterinary care or maliciously torturing, maiming, mutilating, or killing an animal."
Puppy mills: (In my definition in round one, I defined the formal definition of puppy mills. This definition overlooks the inhuman treatment of breeding dogs and puppies. Most are fed inadequatly, and are malnurished. I will go into depth later about this in my arguments)
Puppy mills are an act of animal cruelty.
---
Now to my arguments

1. Puppy mills are inhumane, and most dogs and puppies are treated wrong. They are confined to small wire cages for thier entire lives, they are fed inadequetly, kept in unheated buildings, and denied basic vetanarian care. Why are these legal? (None of the 50 states have laws banning puppy mills) However, if you were to keep your dog in these situations, it would be illegal.

2. Dogs from puppy mills have health problems. "...These dogs always—without exception—have health problems, most of which have been chronic and neglected for years."
{SOURCES FOR ARGUMENTS ONE AND TWO: http://www.almosthomerescue.org... }

3. {most} Dog mills just don't care. Because a puppy is a business, the facility is designed for profit, not the well being of dogs. http://stoppuppymills.org...
Here is a website that lists things they found wrong with some puppy mills:
http://www.stoppuppymills.org...
Here are a few excerpts from this website:
--"The owner had told USDA that he performs surgical procedures (i.e. tail docking, ear cropping, and/or dewclaw removal) on animals.....Owner has no analgesic or anesthetic agents and no sterilization apparatus present at the facility, and is not licensed to practice veterinary medicine or surgery"
--"The head, face, and neck areas of a pregnant Boxer dog housed in the whelping building are covered with flying insects. When this animal was forced to stand and turn toward USDA inspectors, it was noted that its left eye was clouded over, and that a thick white-to-yellow exudate was present around the eye. The attending veterinarian has not been informed of this condition, which has been neither diagnosed or treated"
--"Minimum Age Requirements ... Six puppies were transported underage by dealer."
--"There was a lab female with 7 puppies that was very thin. Her ribs were visible. There was no fresh food in the pen … and the dog was digging in the gravel trying to get to old food that had spilled and was wet."

...as you see, This is very sad for these dogs who have to live in these conditions. The owners do not actually care about the dogs, just what they are able to put on the table because of the dogs.

-----

These are my arguments for round two. Thank you everyone for reading :)
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

"
Actually, dogs (as well as other animals) have laws protecting them."

And Jews once had laws persecuting them.

The law is not inherently right by virtue of being the law.

"
If what you have written above is true, then why are there so many laws pertaining to animals?
Because the government is wrong :).

"
1. Puppy mills are inhumane, and most dogs and puppies are treated wrong. They are confined to small wire cages for thier entire lives, they are fed inadequetly, kept in unheated buildings, and denied basic vetanarian care. Why are these legal? (None of the 50 states have laws banning puppy mills) However, if you were to keep your dog in these situations, it would be illegal.
"
The answer I offer is legalizing "you keeping your dog in these situations." This renders the law consistent with both itself and rights.

"
2. Dogs from puppy mills have health problems. "...These dogs always—without exception—have health problems, most of which have been chronic and neglected for years.""
Irrelevant until it can be shown WHY they merit protection.

"
3. {most} Dog mills just don't care."
Nor is it the business of the law to, however often it may arrogate things not it's business to itself.

"
...as you see, This is very sad for these dogs who have to live in these conditions."
It is very sad that S0m31john constantly gets rejected by females. This does not justify outlawing female rejection of S0m31john.

Certainly, puppy mills are not humane treatment of dogs. Lovely. But show why inhumane treatment should be-- not is, should be-- illegal.
Debate Round No. 2
RacH3ll3

Pro

Since school is ending that means finals are coming up. I will have to make this shorter than usual, since I should be studying. Thank you :)

"The law is not inherently right by virtue of being the law."

I was trying to say that if there are so many laws for dogs, why are puppy mills legal? It is considered animal abuse.

"The answer I offer is legalizing "you keeping your dog in these situations."

This would be going backwards, and every law against animal abuse would be lowered. This would make things worse.

"Irrelevant until it can be shown WHY they merit protection."

They deserve protection because many of the puppies either end up in pet stores, although some are sold directly to the public. This means anyone just looking to get a cute puppy may see the puppy in the store window, not knowing it came from a puppy mill. Then, when they take it home, they find out it has all sorts of problems. Puppies that come from puppy mills can have diseases/pain problems in the foot, gross deformities from birth that goes untreated, and many more. Dogs also need love and attention, and puppy mills do not give this affection to their dogs.
http://www.puppymillprotest.org...
http://www.paloaltohumane.org...

"It is very sad that S0m31john constantly gets rejected by females. This does not justify outlawing female rejection of S0m31john."
S0m31john will not die or be malnutritioned because of that. Puppies in puppy mills can die because of these conditions. Plus, he will find that special girl one day ;) But these puppies may not find that special home.

"Certainly, puppy mills are not humane treatment of dogs. Lovely. But show why inhumane treatment should be-- not is, should be-- illegal"

They should be illegal because they:
-false advertise--They give false AKC registered papers to the pet stores and to the buyers, claiming the puppy is 100% of that breed, when it usually is not fully one breed.
-sell puppies under the age requirements-- 8 weeks is the minimum age to sell a puppy. They do not follow the "rules"....and everyone knows, if you break a rule, you have to suffer the consequences.
http://www.animallaw.info...
http://www.barkrescue.net...

---Arguments---

1. Sex, Lies, and Unlicensed.---Breeding dogs suffer continuously, breeding litter after litter till they can no longer reproduce. (sex). Dogs at puppy mills are often not actually purebred, and the breeders sometimes lie about lineage records. (lies). Unlicensed puppy mills often sell puppies at six weeks of age even though federal laws prohibit licensed mills from selling puppies under eight weeks of age. (unlicensed)
This should be illegal. They are like sex slaves. They also are liars and many don't know what they are doing.
{they are committing all seven deadly sins!!} They shouldn't just be illegal, they should also burn for what they did!
http://www.dosomething.org...

I am sorry I will not be able to post anymore, as I have stated previously. Thank you.
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

"
I was trying to say that if there are so many laws for dogs, why are puppy mills legal?"

Dunno. Not really relevant to the resolution though, since that's a question of interest groups, not what should be.

"
This would be going backwards"
Let's say Obama outlaws having ears, and mandates that anyone who has them be chopped off.
Reversing this policy would be "going backwards." Does that mean the policy shouldn't be reversed?

"and every law against animal abuse would be lowered."
Wonderful.

"This would make things worse."
How so?

"
They deserve protection because many of the puppies either end up in pet stores, although some are sold directly to the public. This means anyone just looking to get a cute puppy may see the puppy in the store window, not knowing it came from a puppy mill."
Sugar plants deserve protection from being made into candy, because many end up in candy stores, and the public won't know what kind of sugar plantation it comes from.

As you can see your warrant does not warrant your claim :).

"Then, when they take it home, they find out it has all sorts of problems."
Which would justify, at best, puppies raised in better conditions being labelled for those conditions, and false advertising being illegal. Not puppy mills as such being illegal.

"Puppies that come from puppy mills can have diseases/pain problems in the foot, gross deformities from birth that goes untreated, and many more. Dogs also need love and attention, and puppy mills do not give this affection to their dogs."
Need is not a rightful claim.

"
S0m31john will not die or be malnutritioned because of that. "
Irrelevant until it is shown that puppy death or puppy malnutrition warrant legal protections against them as such.

"Plus, he will find that special girl one day ;)"
Not demonstrable unless you're making an offer, in which case I suggest you go comment on his profile again.

"
They should be illegal because they:
-false advertise--They give false AKC registered papers to the pet stores and to the buyers, claiming the puppy is 100% of that breed, when it usually is not fully one breed."
Not usually?
This means some of them do and some of them don't. False advertising is extrinsic to the practice, and therefore a separate issue from the mill itself.

"
-sell puppies under the age requirements-- 8 weeks is the minimum age to sell a puppy. They do not follow the "rules"....and everyone knows, if you break a rule, you have to suffer the consequences."
By what right can such a rule be established?

"This should be illegal. They are like sex slaves"
All dogs are like slaves, except the ones in the wild. Otherwise they would not have collars. Adding sex to the issue does not change the morality of the matter, either they are yours to do with as you wish, or they are theirs to do with as they wish. I uphold the former by reference to their nature.
Debate Round No. 3
RacH3ll3

Pro

Hello :)

This will have to be a quick round. Today is my birthday, and I will not be home all day. (I only have seven hours left as of now.)

"Dunno. Not really relevant to the resolution though, since that's a question of interest groups, not what should be"

Since there are so many laws protecting dogs, puppy mills should be considered one of them.

"Let's say Obama outlaws having ears, and mandates that anyone who has them be chopped off.
Reversing this policy would be "going backwards."

Yes, it would be going backwards for him. :)

"Wonderful."

...Do you have any pets? Would you care if someone abused those pets?

"How so?"

Because everybody would be thinking, " oh I don't have enough food. Let's not feed Fido until we get enough money in two weeks. "

(Not feeding your animals is illegal: malnutrition.)

"Sugar plants deserve protection from being made into candy, because many end up in candy stores, and the public won't know what kind of sugar plantation it comes from"

But that sugar won't come home and be scared to death because they never have been outside of a cage or socialized with people, will they?

"Which would justify, at best, puppies raised in better conditions being labelled for those conditions, and false advertising being illegal. Not puppy mills as such being illegal"

There are such conditions as these above. They are called responsible breeders. These breeders actually take care of their dogs. This is the only kind of dog breeding business I like. Of course, they are not puppy mills. They do not keep their puppies in a pen, and they make sure the puppies are in good quality health, or your money back!
That being said, these puppy mill breeders will continue doing it privatly...and not wasting money to make advances on their pups.
http://www.hsus.org...

"Need is not a rightful claim"
So, if your job stopped paying you, and stores stopped selling food, you wouldn't try to change anything? You wouldn't tell your job that you worked so they need to pay you? Oh, sorry, I forgot, "Need is not a rightful claim"

"Irrelevant until it is shown that puppy death or puppy malnutrition warrant legal protections against them as such."
quote out of my source:
"adequate food provided at suitable intervals of quantities of wholesome foodstuff suitable for the species and age, sufficient to maintain a reasonable level of nutrition to allow for proper growth and weight and adequate water provided with constant access to a supply of clean, fresh, and potable water provided in a suitable manner for the species"
As I have mentioned in previous rounds, puppies do not get the proper food supply they need. The quote above comes from ANIMAL LAWS AND REGULATIONS.
http://animalpetdoctor.homestead.com...
(you can find what quote I wrote in chapter one)

"By what right can such a rule be established?"
That puppy mills should be illegal

"All dogs are like slaves, except the ones in the wild. Otherwise they would not have collars. Adding sex to the issue does not change the morality of the matter, either they are yours to do with as you wish, or they are theirs to do with as they wish. I uphold the former by reference to their nature"
So is it okay to beat you kids? They are yours, after all.

---
I think puppy mills should be illegal because most of the things they do are illegal, and it would better to shut them down, instead of running the cruel business. It would be better for the puppy's sake (and if that's not good enough, it would also be better for the buyer's sake, because they would not have to worry about getting a puppy that is sick or mentally sick, somehow.

Like I said, I have to go, I am actually already running late, but I would like to thank my opponent, and thank the voters.

Also, please give RFD's when voting.

Thank you :)
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

"
Since there are so many laws protecting dogs, puppy mills should be considered one of them.
"
Since there are so many laws mandating the stoning of adulterers, America should get one too.

Does not follow :).

"
Yes, it would be going backwards for him. :)
"
in other words, you concede that it doesn't matter what would be "going backwards."

"
...Do you have any pets? Would you care if someone abused those pets?
"
No I do not. If I did, I would care because it would be MY pet, and no one but me would have the right to abuse it (and it's kind of pointless to abuse it). But the dogs in question belong to the puppy mill until sold, thus, it only matters if they care-- if a potential buyer cares, they are quite able to boycott without need for laws involved.

"
Because everybody would be thinking, " oh I don't have enough food. Let's not feed Fido until we get enough money in two weeks. "
Irrelevant until you can demonstrate why Fido's stomach is government business.

"
(Not feeding your animals is illegal: malnutrition.)
"
Again, an appeal to what our current policies are to prescribe future ones, which is logically invalid until one demonstrates the validity of the current ones.

"
But that sugar won't come home and be scared to death because they never have been outside of a cage or socialized with people, will they?
"
How do you know? Are you not a sugarcane? http://www.collegian.psu.edu...

Fear is not relevant to rights, reason and reciprocity are.

"
There are such conditions as these above..." This paragraph does not address my point.

"
So, if your job stopped paying you, and stores stopped selling food, you wouldn't try to change anything? You wouldn't tell your job that you worked so they need to pay you? Oh, sorry, I forgot, "Need is not a rightful claim"
"
This has nothing to do with need. This has to do with a breach of contract. A contract is a rightful claim. When presenting a counterexample, first make sure it actually exemplifies the subject matter in question.

"As I have mentioned in previous rounds, puppies do not get the proper food supply they need. The quote above comes from ANIMAL LAWS AND REGULATIONS."
As I have mentioned many times in previous rounds, what the current laws are does not demonstrate what they should be.

"That puppy mills should be illegal"
That is not a "right."It isn't even phrased as one.

"
So is it okay to beat you kids? They are yours, after all."
No, they are not. A kid is rightfully property of themselves, once they can reason, so long as they reciprocate on rights.

"
I think puppy mills should be illegal because most of the things they do are illegal,"
I think living should be illegal because most of the things you need to do to live have been illegal for someone somewhere :).

"and it would better to shut them down, instead of running the cruel business. It would be better for the puppy's sake (and if that's not good enough, it would also be better for the buyer's sake, because they would not have to worry about getting a puppy that is sick or mentally sick, somehow."
Until the buyer has bought, neither the buyer nor the puppy is rightfully relevant. The current owner is. Just like it's not illegal to paint your car, even if someday you might sell it.
Debate Round No. 4
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by RacH3ll3 7 years ago
RacH3ll3
RFD:

Before and after: pro (I still believe they should be illegal)
conduct: pro (I said thank you, etc. more often)
S&G: I believe it was a tie.
arguments: I gave it to con because he did make some good points and he was original.
sources: Pro because con didn't use any.

Very good debate R_R
Posted by RacH3ll3 7 years ago
RacH3ll3
fyi: the last sentance in my argument on round three is a joke :)
Posted by RacH3ll3 7 years ago
RacH3ll3
oh okay, I see now:)
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 7 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
I made the comment before I accepted, lol.
Posted by RacH3ll3 7 years ago
RacH3ll3
okay because I was like: "didn't he read the first round before he accepted?"
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 7 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
Jk of course.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 7 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
Aww, you defined it. And here I was gonna argue for Puppy alternative energy.
Posted by RacH3ll3 7 years ago
RacH3ll3
'nother typo. Meant to say: I will type my arguments NEXT round. I accidentaly said in each round. sorry! (it's two in the morning here.!.)
Posted by RacH3ll3 7 years ago
RacH3ll3
on my definitions of puppy mills, I forgot to add: dogs in these mills usually end up having health problems, due to lack of exercise from being in cages all their life.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by crackofdawn_Jr 7 years ago
crackofdawn_Jr
RacH3ll3Ragnar_RahlTied
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Total points awarded:24 
Vote Placed by RacH3ll3 7 years ago
RacH3ll3
RacH3ll3Ragnar_RahlTied
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Total points awarded:33