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pro_debater_chick
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The Contender
TheRobocrat
Con (against)
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Purgatory is a money making scheme

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/23/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 723 times Debate No: 88667
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (32)
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pro_debater_chick

Pro

Purgatory is not biblical. The only way it has been filtrated into the church is through corrupt leaders. It is simply a money making scheme and none of the money that is given is used to save people form purgatory, that doesn't even make sense, you can't save a dead man!? Purgatory is not real, the money made from the lies the church tells goes to the building of elaborate and unnecessary churches. If you loved or knew God you would know that he does not require elaborate services and churches! He loves and accepts us for who we are, as we are and that can not be bought by money. PURGATORY IS A LIE!! GOD HAS PAID FOR OUR SINS!! STOP GIVING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH YOUR MONEY, THEY WASTE IT!!!!!
TheRobocrat

Con

Of all the misunderstood Catholic teachings and there are a few of them purgatory is often seen as the most embarrassing. Thousands of Catholics leave the Church every year. Their faith is questioned and their religious education doesnt rise to the challenge. You've probably heard these questions yourself: Where in the Bible does it say you have to confess your sins to a priest? Where does it say that the pope is infallible? That Mary was conceived without original sin? And, Where in the world did you Catholics get the teaching on purgatory?

The case against purgatory seems to be based on three major objections. First, the teaching of purgatory seems to contradict the finished work of Christ and offend the basic understanding of God as a loving, all-caring, all-merciful God who has forgiven our sins in Christ Jesus. Second, purgatory seems to offer a second chance for those who did not follow Christ in this life. Third, purgatory does not appear to be a biblical teaching. Before examining the truth about purgatory, lets take a look at these objections and see why they should be taken seriously.

Scripture stresses the truth of Gods love, and Evangelical Protestants have frequently had a powerful experience of Christs forgiveness. St. John explains: In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his son to be the expiation for our sins (1 Jn. 4:10). Jesus Christ Himself stresses mercy over judgment, stating,

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life (Jn. 5:24).

The second objection against purgatory is that it is a manufactured second chance. If you dont really want to follow Christ, you can still get to heaven through the backdoor. Yet Scripture is clear that spiritual mediocrity is unacceptable (cf. Rev. 3:15-16). Jesus calls for complete commitment. He is either Lord of all, or He isnt Lord at all. There is no second chance; we are either for Christ or against Him (cf. Lk. 11:23). The doctrine of purgatory seems to be an end run. But Jesus said, I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me (Jn. 14:6).

The third argument against the doctrine of purgatory flows from a main dogma of Protestant theology, sola scriptura (the Bible alone). After all, where in the Bible do we find purgatory? A quick word check in any concordance will demonstrate that the word is nowhere to be found in Scripture. Theres no discussion of some third place between heaven and hell. Surely something as important as purgatory would be clearly taught in the pages of Scripture!

In the following debate I hope to refute all this arguments as well as set things clear with any rebuttal I make against the pro.
Debate Round No. 1
pro_debater_chick

Pro

pro_debater_chick forfeited this round.
TheRobocrat

Con

Since my opponent did not give a second argument, I will begin mine. I will refute the arguing statement that purgatory is not biblical - because it is.

All who die in God"s grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (1030).

This seems so simple. Its common sense. Scripture is very clear when it says, "But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Hab. 1:13 says, "You [God]... are of purer eyes than to behold evil and cannot look on wrong..." How many of us"will"be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths? I dare say"most of us will be in need of further purification in order to enter the gates of heaven after we die, if, please God, we die in a state of grace.

In light of this, the truth about Purgatory is"almost self-evident to Catholics. However, to many Protestants this is one of the most repugnant of all Catholic teachings. It represents "a medieval invention nowhere to be found in the Bible." It's often called "a denial of the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice." It is said to"represent "a second-chance theology that is abominable." We get these and many more such charges here at Catholic Answers when it comes to Purgatory. And most often the inquiries"come from Catholics who are asking for help to explain Purgatory to a friend, family member, or co-worker."

A Very Good Place to Start

Perhaps the best place to start is with the most overt reference to a "Purgatory" of sorts in the Old Testament."I say a "Purgatory of sorts" because Purgatory is a teaching fully revealed in the New Testament and defined by the Catholic Church. The Old Testament people of God would not have called it "Purgatory," but they did clearly believe that the sins of the dead could be atoned for by the living as"I will now prove. This is a constitutive element of what Catholics call "Purgatory."

In II Maccabees 12:39-46, we discover Judas Maccabeus and members of his Jewish military forces collecting the bodies of some fallen comrades who had been killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying "sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear" (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin. Therefore, Judas and his men "turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out" He also took up a collection... and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably" Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."

There are usually two immediate objections to the use of this text when talking with Protestants. First, they will dismiss any evidence presented therein because they do not accept the inspiration of Maccabees. And second, they will claim these men in Maccabees committed the sin of idolatry, which would be a mortal sin in Catholic theology. According to the Catholic Church, they would be in Hell where there is no possibility of atonement. Thus, and ironically so, they will say, Purgatory must be eliminated as a possible interpretation of this text if you"re Catholic."""

The Catholic Response:

Rejecting the inspiration and canonicity of II Maccabees does not negate its historical value. Maccabees aids us in knowing, purely from an historical perspective at the very least, the Jews believed in praying and making atonement for the dead shortly before the advent"of Christ. This is the faith in which Jesus and the apostles were raised. And it is in this context Jesus declares in the New Testament:

And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come (Matthew 12:32, emphasis added).

This declaration of our Lord implies there are at least some sins that can be forgiven in the next life to a people who already believed it. If Jesus wanted to condemn this teaching commonly taught in Israel, he was not doing a very good job of it according to St. Matthew"s Gospel.

The next objection presents a more complex problem. The punishment for mortal sin is, in fact, definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed in Hell according to Catholic teaching (see CCC 1030). But it is a non-sequitur to conclude from this teaching that II Maccabees could not be referring to a type of Purgatory.

First of all, a careful reading of the text reveals the sin of these men to be carrying small amulets "or sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia" under their tunics as they were going in to battle. This would be closer to a Christian baseball player believing there is some kind of power in his performing superstitious rituals before going to bat than it would be to the mortal sin of idolatry. This was, most likely, a venial sin for them. But even if what they did would have been objectively grave matter, good Jews in ancient times"just like good Catholics today"believed they should always pray for the souls of those who have died "for thou [O Lord], thou only knowest the hearts of the children of men" (II Chr. 6:30). God alone knows the degree of culpability of these "sinners." Moreover, some or all of them may have repented before they died. Both Jews and Catholic Christians always retain hope for the salvation of the deceased this side of heaven; thus, we always pray for those who have died.

A Plainer Text

In Matthew 5:24-25, Jesus is even more explicit about Purgatory.

Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny (Matthew 5:25-26).

For Catholics, Tertullian for example, in De Anima 58, written in ca. AD 208, this teaching is parabolic, using the well-known example of "prison" and the necessary penitence it represents, as a metaphor for Purgatorial suffering that will be required for lesser transgressions, represented by the "kodrantes" or "penny" of verse 26. But for many Protestants, our Lord is here giving simple instructions to his followers concerning this life exclusively. This has nothing to do with Purgatory.

This traditional Protestant interpretation is very weak contextually. These verses are found in the midst of the famous "Sermon on the Mount," where our Lord teaches about heaven (vs. 20), hell (vs. 29-30), and both mortal (vs. 22) and venial sins (vs. 19), in a context that presents "the Kingdom of Heaven" as the ultimate goal (see verses 3-12). Our Lord goes on to say if you do not love your enemies, "what reward have you" (verse 46)? And he makes very clear these "rewards" are not of this world. They are "rewards from your Father who is in heaven" (6:1) or "treasures in heaven" (6:19)."

Further, as St. John points out in John 20:31, all Scripture is written "that believing, you may have [eternal] life in his name." Scripture must always be viewed in the context of our full realization of the divine life in the world to come. Our present life is presented "as a vapor which appears for a little while, and afterwards shall vanish away" (James 1:17). It would seem odd to see the deeper and even "other worldly" emphasis throughout the Sermon of the Mount, excepting these two verses.

I will continue with more evidence in my next entry.
Debate Round No. 2
pro_debater_chick

Pro

pro_debater_chick forfeited this round.
TheRobocrat

Con

TheRobocrat forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
pro_debater_chick

Pro

pro_debater_chick forfeited this round.
TheRobocrat

Con

TheRobocrat forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
pro_debater_chick

Pro

pro_debater_chick forfeited this round.
TheRobocrat

Con

TheRobocrat forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
32 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by TheRobocrat 1 year ago
TheRobocrat
@More_philosphy

Aye as I said I would have presented a case from the get-go but as I usually follow a proceedure of opening statements where I stated the things I would be objecting to as my opponent did not give a very clear argument other than its not biblical and it's a scheme (of course, he didn't back them up very well). I will present my case even further next round with or without my opponents participation.
Posted by More_Philosophies 1 year ago
More_Philosophies
Robocrat: Thanks for your reply! Looking at your 2nd round statement, I saw that you finally presented your case! Looking at your 1st round statement, though, you did no such thing, but merely recited the kinds of objections to purgatory that are out there -- hence my confusion that this was all you had to offer. ;) So, *sigh*, it's good to finally see you present your case.
Posted by dsjpk5 1 year ago
dsjpk5
Dear Robocrat, I chose not to accept the debate because I thought the resolution was too broad.
Posted by TheRobocrat 1 year ago
TheRobocrat
@More_Philosophies

Well well well, my dear friend, if you actually read my whole statement, I was merely issuing the arguments I would refute in the debate as it was my understanding that I thought the debate would last for awhile, if you actually read my stuff you would notice I said "These are the common misconceptions" and at the bottom I had stated that I would refute them all in the next argument. It's too bad you never read that though, or maybe you would have been so quick to, what was it *sigh*? I didn't know debate.org was now a role play site.
Posted by dsjpk5 1 year ago
dsjpk5
Vice, I would assert the reward mentioned in verse 14 refers to the reward of salvation since he/she doesn't need purification.

And it seems we're misunderstanding each other. I still contain that passage supports Purgatory. It says the person is only saved after suffering the results of a purification process on judgment day.

Matthew 12:32 speaks of a sin that can't be forgiven in this age or the next. This implies there are some sins that can be forgiven in the age to come.

Matthew 5:21ff speaks of judgment, of Hell fire. It speaks of the judge putting someone in jail, and then letting them out, but only AFTER they've paid their debt.
Posted by ViceRegent 1 year ago
ViceRegent
Verse 14 speaks of rewards.

But I am glad we agree that I Cor 3 does not teach the lie of purgatory, since it says nothing about people being saved via a purification process and speaks of their works being purified, not them.

How does Matt 12:32 and Matt 5:35-26 [Sic] teach purgatory?
Posted by dsjpk5 1 year ago
dsjpk5
Vice, as I have said from the beginning, the Catholic Church does NOT say Purgatory involves actual fire. That is why your fire questions are irrelevant, and nothing more than a red herring. You are flat out wrong to say otherwise.

Please stop creating straw man arguments, and deal with the ACTUAL doctrine.

And there's no mention of "rewards" in the verse. You are forcing that concept into it. The verse speaks of people being saved because of the purification process where their works are tested.

To answer your question:

Matthew 12:32 and Matthew 5:35-26 for starters
Posted by ViceRegent 1 year ago
ViceRegent
It cannot be both, for it means different things. In fact Paul is making a simile as to what salvation will be like, not what it is. The lie of Purgatory says some actually go though fire. Thus, I Cor 3 provides no justification for this heresy.

Right, it is our works that go through the fire for puridication, not us, when the lie of purgatory says some go through the first for purification. Thus, I Cor 3 provides no justification for this heresy.

While you dodge this Q yet again, I Cor 3 does not state that we suffer purification through fire, but that we suffer loss of rewards. Thus, I Cor 3 provides no justification for this heresy.

Your cult's sodomite priests have lied to you.

Where else is this lie taught in God's Word?
Posted by dsjpk5 1 year ago
dsjpk5
Vice, despite them being irrelevant, I will answer your questions in an attempt to move our conversation along:

1. My preferred translation say we'll be saved "as through fire". Having said that, other translations say through fire. So the real answer is "both".

2. What is burned up? Our works.

I did give you scripture ... 1 Corinthians 3:15. Remember, that's only my favorite verse that teaches Purgatory. As for my interpretation, that's a necessary part of discussing scripture.
Posted by ViceRegent 1 year ago
ViceRegent
Just answer the questions. I am not asking is we suffer lose, but if we suffer the fire.

And I did not ask for you worthless opinions, but Scripture.
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