The Instigator
Al-Kitab
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Dragonfang
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Quran alone : The misled Sunni/Shia (the followers of hadith for guidance)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/18/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,560 times Debate No: 49337
Debate Rounds (5)
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Al-Kitab

Pro

I will use Quran to justify my opinion.

Doesn't matter which of the two major sects accept the challenge.

If hadith or Quran quoted must make exact reference.
(If required I too will use hadith (from authentic sources) for cross interrogation purposes.
Dragonfang

Con

I will accept this debate as a Sunni.

Although there is no rule that states I can't start from the first round, I won't in order to allow an equal number of rounds. Since the burden of proof, based on the resolution, is heavier on your side, I will take the last round since it is more suited for rebuttal, which will also allow you a smoother first round to present your claims and evidence.

I hope for a fruitful debate InshAllah.
Debate Round No. 1
Al-Kitab

Pro

Selam my friend,

Insha'Allah with peace and patience we can agree to disagree.......even if we don't agree.

For the first round I would like to begin by raising the narrations of Prophet Musa and 3 questions in regards to his account.
Also 3 general questions.

May Allah give peace and blessings upon all the messengers within this debate.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Explanation 1:
The first time the Quran was revealed was not in the cave with prophet Muhammad,
that was the revelation of the "final" chapter.

Prophet Musa on the mountain is the first revelation. (Before Prophet Musa, revelations were orally transmitted)

As prophet Musa is receiving revelations on the mountain, an Israelite named Samiri decides to create a calf.

What does he say?

20.96 He said, "I noticed what they did not notice, so I took a portion from the teaching of the messenger (footsteps/tracks), and I cast it away. This is what my person inspired me to do."

For every equal there must be an opposite.
As the light is being revealed to the prophet,
so is the darkness to those who seek guidance in anything besides the light.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question 1:
Does not EVERY hadith (besides Ahsan Hadith (The Quran as it refers to itself)) fall under the words of Samiri?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I" noticed what they did not notice...... Every hadith is a witnessing from one person perspective.
I took a portion from the teachings...... Every hadith (to be authenticated properly) is based on portions of the teachings

While the Prophet Musa was bringing them the words of Allah,
Samiri decided that something else was worthy of being recorded.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Explanation 2:
There is a very common word in the Quran
"Nun-Zay-Lam" (reference from my site: http://www.islamawakened.org...
meaning to descend, come down, go down, happen, alight at, settle in a place, lodge.
anzala - to send down, give.
nazulun - that which is prepared for a guest's entertainment, abode, gift.
manzil - mansion, station.
nazzala - to cause to descend, send down.
tanziil - sending down, divine revelation, orderly arrangement and authentic compilation, gradual revelation.

E.g of "Sent down" of revelation
2.4 And who believe in that which has been sent down (unzilna) to you and that which was sent down (unzilna) before you and they are sure of the hereafter.

Another E.g of "Sent down" of revelation
2.23 And if you are in doubt as to that which We have sent down (nazzalna) to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

We also find Manna and Quail (food to eat from above) "sent down"
2.57 And We made the clouds to give shade over you and We sent to you (wanzalna) manna and quails: Eat of the good things that We have given you; and they did not do Us any harm, but they made their own souls suffer the loss.

So food (in 2:57), revelation (e.g 2.4, 2.23), Water (many ayats) are unzila -
Good things and blessing are sent down.

Remembering this, lets look at what the Israelites say about the sent down food - "The manna and quail"

2.61 And when you said:
O Musa! we cannot bear with one food, <-----------------
therefore pray Lord on our behalf to bring forth for us out of what the earth grows, <-------------
of its herbs and its cucumbers and its garlic and its lentils and its onions. He said: Will you exchange that which is better for that which is worse?
Enter a city, so you will have what you ask for....

we notice the Israelites asking for "out of what the earth grows".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question 2:
Why should I follow from what "the earth grows" when Allah has guided mankind with sending revelations down?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Explanation 3:

We will all be behind our Imams on that day.

Even Firoun will be an imam (28:38-41) on that day.

Say I accept a hadith as guidance.

That means I have also accepted every person who narrated that chain of hadiths (authentic or not) all the way to the prophet.
From my shiekh (or imams) to his teacher, to his teacher and so forth.

It means instantly I am standing 1400 years behind the prophet.....whom there is no doubt the prophet followed only the book and its contents and would be at the front of the line.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question 3:

Why would you want to stand thousands of years behind the prophet,
with thousands of humans in between, who ALL were tempted by shaitain at least once in there life (no one is sinless),
when just by accepting the Quran alone (as your guide), you could be standing....
Right beside the prophet (side by side) like a Muslim?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

3 General Questions.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Explanation 1:

The Jewish Torah and the Christian Bible have been corrupted, most Muslims agree to this.

They were 100% Perfect from Allah

Now <100%

THE QURAN however is 100% Perfect then now and always.
It is 100% our guide.
It is 100% perfect Hadith

ANY imbalances of 100% is an IMPERFECTION.

(As 99% (<100%) is imperfect, so is 101% (>100%)

101% is not greater than perfect.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question 1:
If Allah has given you a cup full of water PERFECTLY measured Hadith for guidance - The Quran,
Why would you add anything more to overflow it?A279;
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hadiths are an addition to perfection. In essence, it means you doubt Allah as the only guide and think his word is lacking.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Explanation 2:
Quran is not a book about someones life but life itself.
Allah guided our prophets with the same examples in the book.
PROPHET MUHAMMAD was guided with the examples of Nuh, Ibrahim, Musa, Isa etc.
They were taught to him, he taught the world.

Its the examples Allah gave to Prophet Muhammad to make him an example Muslim.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question 2:
If the Quran is the teacher and the student was Prophet Muhammad,

Why should I follow the examples of the final prophet written by man,
when ALLAH gave me the best examples in the Quran?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE BEST EXAMPLES are in the Quran. Every topic is covered.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Explanation 3:

For Allah to choose Prophet Muhammad for such a great task, his character MUST have been in line with the Quran.
I agree he was a walking, talking, living, eating breathing Quran.

he IS the Quran because when reading it....

Whatever he heard is in the book word for word.
We listen to the words of Allah through the prophet.

They are both the same thing
Prophet = Quran
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question 3:

Why should I ask anybody else (hadiths) about Prophet Muhammad if I can ask the prophet (Quran) myself?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All of his jihad was to get the book of Allah recorded,
not record a book about himself
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Awaiting your response.

May Allah judge us accordingly.
Dragonfang

Con

I thank my opponent for a quck response.
So my opponent's argument is divided into main points (explanations), and sub-points (questions). I shall begin by presenting a rebuttal, inwhich I will only focus on you argument's shortcoming and leave my case at the end.



1- Samiri

First of all, the Quran is different from other revelations or holy books. What Moses (PBUH) recieved was the Torah. Also, there isn't really enough information to claim or deny that revelations sent to prophets before Moses (PBUH) were only orally transmuted. However, Moses's (PBUH) revelation is the chronologically earliest one mentioned by name in the Quran.


Anyway, to the issue at hand. You totally misinterrupted the story of Samiri. The verse talks about him creating a false calf idol, known as "The golden calf" in Jewish scriptures. [1]



And We took the Children of Israel across the sea; then they came upon a people intent in devotion to [some] idols of theirs. They said, "O Moses, make for us a god just as they have gods." He said, "Indeed, you are a people behaving ignorantly. (Quran 7:138)

http://quran.com...


So no, the words of Samiri inherintly don't apply to hadith. Samiri did not record anything as far as we know.
The translation (of the meaning) is questionable. It refeers to Samiri trying to make the calf idol look holy.

He said, "I saw what they did not see, so I took a handful [of dust] from the track of the messenger and threw it, and thus did my soul entice me." (Quran 20:96)

http://quran.com...

Refer to source [1] for full story.


Are you saying that every testamonial should be discareded (because it uses a person's perspective) without even bothering to examine it? What about testamonials in courts?
What about multiple hadiths where different narraters describe the same incident?



I don't see you point regarding how talking about a relevant portation of the teaching is wrong. So should, for example, a doctor recite an entire medical encyclopedia in order to describe an illness for a patient? Should an Imam recite all chapters of the Quran in order to answer a question someone asked? What you imply is not realistic due to multiple obvious reasons.

I believe what you are talking about is misinterrupting, which includes missing or ignoring portation relevant to a certain subject.


O you who have believed, do not approach prayer while you are intoxicated until you know what you are saying or in a state of janabah, except those passing through [a place of prayer], until you have washed [your whole body]. And if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and find no water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and your hands [with it]. Indeed, Allah is ever Pardoning and Forgiving. (Quran 4:43)

http://quran.com...


Someone who is ignorant of the verse that forbids alchohol might conclude that it is OK to drink alchohol and get intoxicated as long as you aren't worshipping.



2- Sending down revelation

What you have shown is confirmation that the Quran is sent down from Allah. However, I don't see the connection between Israellies demanding for gardens of fruit and vegetables being sent down, and Allah sending revelation. You seem to make it some sort of dilemma, but I don't get it. So kindly further explain the point.


3- Thousands of years inbetween

You seem to assume that Hadiths are orally transmitted for +1400 years through hundreds of generations. Incorrect.


Then you said that Pharoah can become an Imam based on the following holy verses:

{38}And Pharaoh said, "O eminent ones, I have not known you to have a god other than me. Then ignite for me, O Haman, [a fire] upon the clay and make for me a tower that I may look at the God of Moses. And indeed, I do think he is among the liars."
{39}And he was arrogant, he and his soldiers, in the land, without right, and they thought that they would not be returned to Us.
{40}So We took him and his soldiers and threw them into the sea. So see how was the end of the wrongdoers.
{41} And We made them leaders inviting to the Fire, and on the Day of Resurrection they will not be helped.
(Quran 28:38-41)

http://quran.com...


This is a linquistic fallacy. Unless you are claiming that Imam who leads people during prayer will lead people to fire because he is called an "Imam".
There are different types of Imams or leaders. The standard and most used context is "Religious leader". Ofcourse, that doesn't mean we should follow blindly as they can make mistakes. The most important attribute is ijtihad (Striving for a good cause).


And just because we as humans can be tempted, doesn't mean that we will go astray. You make it seem that everyone will be fabricate which is unreasonable.

By following authnetic hadith you would be both following the Quran, and standing by the prophet. (See my argument below)

Hadiths aren't perfect, and some of them might not be authnetic. However, their accuracy is taken seriously, so a hadith that is slightly doubtious for various reasons would be overlooked.


4- Perfection of the Quran & Following example & Asking the Quran

I will combine your final three points since they are similar.




In an educational system, it is possible for them to simply hand you the material and inform you off dates where you submit your assignments and take exams. However, they don't; they offer teachers.


[We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought. (Quran 16:44)

http://quran.com...


The word used is "litubayyina", which means to make clear. So his role was not only to deliver but to explain, not drop a package and leave.

Certainly did Allah confer [great] favor upon the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from themselves, reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom, although they had been before in manifest error. (Quran 3:164)

http://quran.com...

It would be a shame if those teaching are lost. No?




No, the false claim your arguments are made from is that "Every topic is covered".
If so, then please pray tell these essential information:
1- The steps and number of prayer using the Quran only.
2- The steps of performing Hajj using the Quran only.
3- The amount of Zakat we have to pay from the Quran.

The Quran doesn't talks about details for various wisdoms we may or may not understand. However, we get them from Mohammad (PBUH).


Question: Why should I follow the examples of the final prophet written by man?

Answer: Because it was instructed in the Quran?

There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often. (Quran 33:21)

http://quran.com...

"By man" is the only method we are learning of said examples.

And what Allah restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns - it is for Allah and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and orphans and the [stranded] traveler - so that it will not be a perpetual distribution among the rich from among you. And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty. (Quran 59:7)

http://quran.com...

Following what the prophet instructed and avoiding what he had forbidden would be more than troublesome if we don't know what he had instructed or forbidden.

{3} Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination.

{4} It is not but a revelation revealed,

(Quran 53:3-4)

http://quran.com...

We must remember that while Mohammad (PBUH) is only a human, by definition, as a prophet what he says regarding religion would be instructed by Allah.

The only statement of the [true] believers when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them is that they say, "We hear and we obey." And those are the successful. (Quran 24:51)

http://quran.com...

It is a fact that numerous chapters have a separte command to obey the prophet after the command to obey Allah.

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. (Quran 4:59)

http://quran.com...

Therefore, by neccessity, hadiths are needed to both fulfil the commands written in the Quran and to gain a better understanding.

Thank you, and may Allah guide us all.



[1] http://islamfrominside.com...
http://quran.com...

Debate Round No. 2
Al-Kitab

Pro

1. Saimiri
The word used for the calf of samiri is of great importance. Usage in the Quran, not etymology is how a word should be translated.

Ref to my site: The word is http://islamawakened.com...

Meaning to to hasten, make speed, accelerate, be hasty, act hastily, hurry over, do speedily.
ajalun - precipitation, haste.
ajil - that which hastens away, transitory.
ista'jala- to seek or desire to hasten, urge one to make haste in doing anything.,
ijlun- calf.

The calf represents those who were impatient with the words of Allah and created their own guidance.

You mention as merely creating a false god with..
They said, "O Moses, make for us a god just as they have gods." He said, "Indeed, you are a people behaving ignorantly. 7:138

My friend, what is a false god?
The reason I ask is because the same people say

20:91
They said:
"We will remain devoted to it until Moses comes back to us."

This indicates they have not accept it as God (capital G) but a short term god to settle their desires until the return of Musa

This minor god / false god was made by Samiri with the intention of misleading

20:88
He then produced for them a statue of a calf that emitted a sound.
So they said:
"This is your god and the god of Moses,
but he had forgotten!"

A guidance made without the approval (or from) Allah only to mislead man in other words besides Allah complete word inherently does apply to hadith. Especially when taking into consideration his words/motive and intention.
______________
Are you saying that every testamonial should be discareded (because it uses a person's perspective) without even bothering to examine it?
What about testamonials in courts?
_______________
I never said it shouldn't be questioned.
20.95 He said: "So what do you have to say O Samarian"

Prophet Musa asked for his testimony for purposes of examining.

Before I continue explaining,
notice I said in the title "hadith for guidance", not historical purposes

I have no problem accepting it for historical reference, but not for guidance.

2.2
That book
in it no doubt
IT IS THE GUIDE <---- FI HI HUDAN
of the God conscious.

EVERY Muslim who is on the straight path fall under the category of "God conscious"
The guide however is not the prophet or anything besides Allah.
He is the teacher, everyone else is a student.

A testimony can be accepted if agrees to the truth only.
i.e
Quran says
Prophet Nuhs ship was Fulki (round, circular - perfect for balance)
Discoveries show us in fact it was round
http://m.digitaljournal.com...

....hence we can accept it as the truth when evidence suggest so.

The topic of discussion isn't about accepting hadith for historical reference or to prove it is authentic,
we are speaking in regards to Allah guidance vs any other guide.
_______________
What about multiple hadiths where different narraters describe the same incident?
_______________

What are the last statements in the Farewell Sermon (Khutba al-Wida) which was reportedly witnessed by more than 100,000 sahaba, making it by far the most authentic hadith among the thousands of hadiths?

I leave you my sahaba; you may follow any of them.
I leave you the Quran; you should follow it.
I leave you the Quran and Sunna; you should follow both.
I leave you the Quran and Ahl-al- Bayt (my family); you should follow them.

100,000 witnesses still cant get one statement right.

______________
I don't see you point regarding how talking about a relevant portation of the teaching is wrong.
_______________

It is not me who thinks this is wrong.

I only follow what I know.

*Allah said it was wrong and so did the Prophets and mummims with them.

Your statement signifies you accept taking a portion of revelation (20:96) that Samiri was condemned for as not wrong.

Do you accept the words of the calf creator?

_______________
So should, for example, a doctor recite an entire medical encyclopedia in order to describe an illness for a patient? Should an Imam recite all chapters of the Quran in order to answer a question someone asked? What you imply is not realistic due to multiple obvious reasons.
_______________

The concern is not about taking portions of the teachings here.
It is taking portions and recreating your own desires.
It is making something WITHOUT the truths approval

In your scenario the medical encyclopedia or the imam who recites the full Quran have the truth.
If the student gets a portion of the teachings and reproduces something that makes no sense, meaning not equal or in conjunction with the truth, it is falsified.

2. Sending down revelation:
__________
don't see the connection between Israellies demanding for gardens of fruit and vegetables being sent down, and Allah sending revelation
_________
Allah sends down revelations
Allah sends down water
Allah sends down blessings
Allah sends down the angels

Allah sends good things/barakat.

In this narration
Allah sent down manna and quail 2:57 (same as revelations, water, and blessing - ALL barakat)
They say we can bear with one food alone, 2:61

i.e they can not bear with Allahs word alone.
Exactly what every hadith is made for.

3. Thousands of years inbetween
I did not say ALL IMAMS are bad. I mentioned FIroun to give the idea the word has no connotation. Not good or Bad
You have differed from answering the Question

4. Perfection of the Quran & Following example & Asking the Quran
___________
In an educational system, it is possible for them to simply hand you the material and inform you off dates where you submit your assignments and take exams. However, they don't; they offer teachers.
___________
96.1 Read!

Who is the teacher in this passage?
Are you saying Allah didnt teach us?

The prophet taught the people, what he was taught from the angel, what he was taught from Allah.
So this educational system has a principal, a teacher and a student advisor.
Please show me in this school where other students (those who watched the student-hadith) are.

The word "litubayyina"
ref my site: http://islamawakened.com...

The word litubayyina is a derivative of BYN, which is a multiple-meaning word. It means: (1) to reveal what is concealed; (2) to explain what is vague.
The first meaning is the antonym of "hide",
the second is the antonym of "make vague".
Allah orders Muhammad to proclaim the revelation which is revealed to him personally.
Indeed, this is the whole mission of the messengers.
____
1. prayer
ALL religious practices of prayer was established and practiced before the Quranic revelation 8:35; 9:54; 16:123; 21:73; 22:27; 28:27.
Messengers after Ibrahim also practiced prayers, obligatory charity, and fasting (2:43; 3:43; 11:87; 19:31,59; 20:14; 28:27; 31:17).

To go more detail
Ibrahim set up salah, not Muhmmad.

If you read the key words in 2.125

KEY WORDS in passage:
Appointed place of pray (direction towards Kabah)
STANDING place of Prophet Ibrahim
ENJOYED On them what to say (the words of Allah)
BOW DOWN
PROSTRATE

5 Times of pray are mentioned;

The Dawn is mentioned by name in 24:58. Before sunrise.
The Noon Prayer is specified in 17:78. When the sun declines.
The Afternoon Prayer is in 2:238. Midway between noon & sunset.
The Sunset Prayer is mentioned in 11:114. Immediately after sunset.
The Night Prayer is in 11:114, and is mentioned by name in 24:58.

The method of praying is mentioned
standing position (3:39, 39:9),

the bowing and prostration positions (Rukoo' and Sajood) (2:43, 3:43, 9:112, 22:26, 22:77).

(Also there is the additional pray if you want to do extra (non-compulsory) 17:79

Now....
I would like to see you evidence of "steps and number of prayer" using hadiths.

2. Hajj.
Hajj is in detail within the Quran.
If you speak of other additon of traditionalist

i.e Stoning the devil
I do not agree with the steps you have in place to go Hajj.

37:102 mentions Ibrahim saw a dream, his son agreed.
NO WHERE IS THERE TEMPTATION.
So why do you stone a replication (an idol) of the devil if Ibrahim wasnt tempted.
Any idol is wrong, be it good or bad
Yet we have an idol of the devil at hajj and are expected to accept its representation of the devil.
Does that make sense in your Quran?

3. Zakat -
2.267, 2.219, 25.67
Quran asks us to spend out of what we earn and produce (i.e., from our income and production),
out of what we like for ourselves, and from that which is in excess of our needs.
Our needs can be understood as those for our own consumption,
including needs that accommodate provisions for savings and investments for our needed future consumption.
______
You gave 33:21.
There is similar content with Ibraham:
"A good example has been set for you by Abraham and those with him" 60:4, 6.
If verse 33:21 requires Muhammad"s hadith,
then why would not the verses 60:4,6 require Ibraham"s hadith?
Which books narrate hadiths from Ibraham?
Obviously, the only reliable source for both examples is the Book of God, which narrates the relevant exemplary actions.
It also warns us not to repeat the mistakes committed by Muhammad(33:37; 80: 1-10)

4:59 Obeying hadith is not obeying the messenger.
Obeying the messenger is obeying the complete,
perfect and fully detailed Quran.
Verse 25:73 describes the attitude of truth-seekers towards God"s revelations.

Also
why do you ignore
6:19, 7:3, and 50:45, which say that the only teaching delivered by God"s messenger was the Quran.
Wasn't his practice Quran alone? 5:48, 49.
Wasn't this the prophets complaint about his people? 25:30
He disowned whoever thought the Quran wasn't complete and FULLY detail 6.114
His only mission was to deliver God"s message 16:35; 24:54.

We also know that the Quran is a permanent messenger 65:11,
and the Quran is a reminder and deliverer of good news 41:4; 11:2.

So what does obeying the prophet mean?
Was it not he lived to preach the book?
Did he want you to follow him or the book 3:79
Dragonfang

Con

1- Samiri

Based on the fundamentals of Islam, all that is considered as god other than Allah is false, I added the word for emphasis.

You had attributed different false describtion to hadith, which are:

1- Guidance without approval (or from) Allah:

False. Please prove this claim. Wouldn't a prophet, you know, be more knowledgable about the commands from God?


[43] And We sent not before you except men to whom We revealed [Our message]. So ask the people of the message if you do not know.
[44] [We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.
(Quran 16:43-44)

http://quran.com...

The former verse gives permission to ask messangers. Therefore, you claim is refuted.
According to your stance, interrupting the later verse would be circular logic. "We sent verses to interrupt verses". Which will require veress to interrupt the verses that interrupt the verses and so forth. The verse clearly addresses Mohammad (PBUH) and he is to perform an action, which is to clarify.


He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian.
(Quran 4:80)
http://quran.com...

You can find a dozen verses with similar context. So I don't understand that objection regarding following the prophet.


2- Only to mislead man:

Simply providing the definition of Hadith would contradict your claim.

{3} Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination.
{4} It is not but a revelation revealed,
(Quran 53:3-4)
http://quran.com...

If you claim that this verse only speaks about Quranic revelation, then do you mean that the Prophet can give wrong religious commands and mistakenly lead people to falsehood?


3- Similar to Samiri:
Sounds like a very weak analogy. Can you point the similarities between worshiping a calf idol and recording the words and actions of prophet?



You are willing to accept Hadiths for historical purposes. Which implies that you acknowledge that they can be accurate.
Leaving your issue with the hadith a matter of which we can use them as guidance.

Say, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn away - then upon him is only that [duty] with which he has been charged, and upon you is that with which you have been charged. And if you obey him, you will be [rightly] guided. And there is not upon the Messenger except the [responsibility for] clear notification."
(Quran 24:54)
http://quran.com...

Once again, one of the methods to be rightly guided is obeying the prophet. Please address this statement.


Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah , then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
(Quran 3:31)
http://quran.com...

Loving Allah is connected with following the prophet. Notice that the order is absolute and sets no restrictions, therefore we can use methods other than the Quran in order to follow Mohammad (PBUH) like observation.


Since you can accept the Hadith as a historical reference, then please answer these question:

1- Does the prophet give commands? Is he obeyed in religious matters?
2- Did Muslims ask the prophet questions for clarification? Does he clarify and explains some verses in the Quran?
3- Did Mohammad (PBUH) point that somethings are halal or haram?

Really, it is almost like you are saying that sahaba should obey and follow the prophet, but we are not required to.



An other issue is the relability of your translation.

This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -

Thalika alkitabu larayba feehi hudan lilmuttaqeen
(Quran 2:2)
http://quran.com...


You claim that the verse is translated as "The guidance". However, "Al" (The) is not attached to the word "Huda" (Guidance). Therefore, a literal translation for "Fihi Huda" would be "Contains guidance".


Your criticism of the farewell sermon is fundamentally flawed. Assuming 100,000 people witnessed it doesn't mean the testamony of 100,000 people were taken. As I said, Hadiths are not perfect, and stydying them is taken seriously.


Regarding the unclear concept of "portation of teahing", as I said: You misinterrupted and misunderstood the verse. Samiri never talked about any teaching, he talked about constructing the calf idol.
And since you brought more insight on the concept, then please:
1- Demonstrate that all Hadiths are mean to recreate personal desires.
2- Explain how and what do you mean by Hadiths making something WITHOUT the truths approval
3- Demonstrate that Hadiths are not with conjunction with the truth.



2- Sending down revelation

I remind you that the Mohammad's (PBUH) prophethood is sent down by Allah. So unless you are claiming that the prophet's words and actions are in contradiction to Allah's commands, I don't see how Hadiths contradicts your point.


3- Thousands years in between

If that is the case, then mentioning pharoah being in Imam at all is meaningless and can count as a red herring.
I have addressed your points regarding humans being tempted, and standing with the prophet and Quran in the previous round.


4- Perfection of the Quran & Following example & Asking the Quran

I am using the standard definition of "Teach", which includes giving lessons.
So how did Allah teach you? During your dreams? With revelations? With an angel? With a secret prophet?

When you say that the prophet taught the people, you mean gave them the study material, which is the Quran. However, the Hadiths are the methods of recording those lessons he taught the people.


There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often. (Quran 33:21)
http://quran.com...


The prophet is a role model whom Allah have recommended following for those who have strong faith in Allah. Allah even ordered numerous times for us to follow the prophet's commands.



Then there is the part regarding the ridiculous claim that the Quran explained everything.


1- Prayer

I agree that Prayer + Charity + Fasting was mentioned for Ibrahim and prophets after him.

Before I address "How to pray using the Quran", I will address your claim of the number of prayers using the Quran.


I am going to quote from an article by an indvidual who rejects Hadith, in which said indvidual argues that we are obligated to perform only three prayers according to the Quran. [1]

"Sala
for the believers is conducted regularly at three times each day (24:58, 11:114, 2:238, 17:78)."

Here is a fact: Only two prayers are mentioned by name in the Quran ("Fajr" and "Esha"), alongside a "Middle prayer".
The reference of time of prayer can easily be aimed at Fajr and Esha. So how do you prove you are right without hindsight bias.



Regarding knowing the steps of prayer using the Quran, you provided references to standing, bowing, and prostration. However that is extremly vague.

1- How do you bow? How long is the bow? Are you required to say any prayer during bowing?
Martial artists have all sorts of different bows too. Since it is not mentioned in the Quran, do we have the freedom of choice?

2- How do we prostrate, since there are different types of prostration? [2] Is it OK to do a Buddhist prostration?

3- Can we pray naked if we are in privacy? Is there a verse in the Quran against that?

4- Is the Friday (Jumu'ah) prayer not required? And if we perform such prayer, do we only do two Rakat? Does the Friday prayer do for the Zuhr prayer?

5- Do we need to recite Fatiha, or anything in the Quran for that matter, during prayer?

6- Do we sit during prayer? Is there a second prostration during prayer? Is there a tashahhud just before the end of prayer? As a matter of fact, do we even need to end prayer in a certain way?


As for me bringing the steps and number of prayer using the hadith, it is easy:

"offer your prayers in the way you saw me offering my prayers"
http://sunnah.com...

Sunnah refers to both the words AND actions of the prophet. We simply followed the way he prays till today, since teaching by example is more effective than words regarding more complex rituals like salat.


Number of prayers, once again, easy:

Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah (way peace be upon him) said:

Five prayers and one Friday prayer to (the next) Friday prayer are expiatious (for the sins committed in the intervals) between them.
http://sunnah.com...

Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported that the Messenger of Allah (A018;) said:

The similitude of five prayers is like an overflowing river passing by the gate of one of you in which he washes five times daily Hasan said: No filthiness can remain on him.
http://sunnah.com...


2- Hajj

What is your criteria for calling something "Detailed", is it as detailed as prayer? And can your prove your claim from the Quran?

The stonning is a symbolism of the incident. There is no idol for the devil, nor do (the majority) muslims believe they are stonning a devil.


3- Zakat

I asked you for the AMOUNT, you did not provide a specific answer.
How do you know you are allowed to have saving or make investments since they can be considered "Excess of our need"?


And finally your rebutual of my verses:

1- We don't need a reference for Ibrahim since the Quran already mentioned the example.
"There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people..." [3]

However, the verses mentioning the example of Mohammad (PBUH) directly talks to the Muslims while not mentioning any example that it talks about. Which means observation is the only method of knowing said examples.

2- The verses says "Obey Allah AND the messanger", which means that there are two seperate commands. Refer to verse 4:80 which is also mentioned above.

I never argued against the validity or superiority of the Quran as the word of Allah. Which is a strawman.


[1] http://www.19.org...
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[3] http://quran.com...
Debate Round No. 3
Al-Kitab

Pro

YOU:Guidance without approval (or from) Allah:
___
Eg of what prophets disapprove.

3:79
It is not for any human being that Allah would give him the Book
and the authority and the prophethood,
then he would say to the people:
"Be servants to me rather than Allah!"
Rather:
"Be Devotees for what you have been taught of the Book, and of what you have studied."

Egs of what the Quran approves. (ITSELF)

75:17-19
Indeed, upon Us (is) its collection and its recitation.
And when We have recited it, then follow its recitation.
Then indeed, upon Us (is) its explanation.

12:111
In their stories is a lesson for those who possess intelligence.
It is not a narration (Ĥadīthāan) that has been invented,
but an authentication of what is between his hands and a detailing of all things,
and a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.

And finally ANY HADITH that comes AFTER the book of ALLAH and its approval.

77:50
Then in what
fabi-ayyi

statement <---
Hadithin <----

after it <---
baadahu <---

will they believe?
yu'minuna

Is your hadith AFTER the Quran?
Prove to me how your hadith doesn't fail 77.50?

Quran asks you HOW do you believe in it once the Quran has been collected, recited and recorded by Allah?

Tell me where does it say the prophets approve of anything but the book and 3.79"kuntum tadrusuna" "What YOU have studied"? Where does Allah give permission for the prophets narrations to be recorded, WHEN HE was the greatest of witnesses?
__
YOU:Quran 16:43-44 Wouldn't a prophet"be more knowledgable(sic) about the commands from God (Quran 16:43-44)
__
My direct response is wouldn't Allah be more knowledgeable than the prophets?
You follow the example of prophets while they follow the commandments of Allah that you have in your possession.
The prophets all followed examples set by other prophets.
The final prophet read the same stories about, Nuh, Issa, Musa, the SAME WORD FOR WORD guidance he heard from the angel, sent to him from Allah to make him a muslim.

Allah commands are in the Quran
(are these not commandments? www.islamawakened.org/quran/roots/Qaf-Waw-Lam.html);
the prophet conveyed these messages to us and therefore deserved to be obeyed.

The words he was using to guide us were the revelations. ALL HE ENDEAVOURED FOR was the revelations to be heard, not his story.
Is this not true?

The ayats you mentioned say the people of Dhikr www.islamawakened.org/quran/roots/Thal-Kaf-Ra.html
What is the Dhikr (remembrance)?

3:58 That (is what) We recite [it] to you of the Verses and the (DHIKR) Reminder [the] Wise.

6:90 Those (are) ones whom Allah has guided, so of their guidance you follow. Say, "Not I ask you for it any reward. It (is) not but a reminder (DHIKR) for the worlds."

7:2 A Book revealed to you so (let) not be in your breast any uneasiness from it that you warn with it, and a (DHIKR) reminder for the believers.

7:63 Do you wonder that has come to you a (DHIKR) reminder from your Lord on a man among you, that he may warn you and that you may fear, and so that you may receive mercy."

Please explain how you interpret the DHIKR of Allah to be anything besides the Al-Kitab and its content?
___
YOU:The former verse gives permission to ask messangers(sic).
___
The former does give permission to ask the messengers, but the messengers response is that of the DHIKR from within the book. MY claim is not refuted, try again.
____
YOU:If you claim that this verse only speaks about Quranic revelation, then do you mean that the Prophet can give wrong religious commands and mistakenly lead people to falsehood?
____
YOU FORGET they are also sitting the test INCLUDING PROPHETS.
If a prophet ended up following his desires he can misled, absolutely.

7:175-176 And recite to them (the) story (of the) one whom We gave [him] Our Verses, but he detached [from] them, so followed him the Shaitaan and he became of those gone astray. And if We willed surely, We (could) have raised him with these [and] but he adhered to the earth and followed his (vain) desires"..
____
YOU:3- Similar to Samiri:
Can you point the similarities between worshiping a calf idol and recording the words and actions of prophet?
____
AGAIN it is not what he created. It is what he said that is important. The people followed something that he says specifically ""This (is) your god and the god (of) Musa, but he forgot."
They followed something that Samiri claimed was not part of the complete book, a piece of vital information that he thought (20:96) should be recorded. ANY GUIDANCE BESIDES ALLAHS leads astray, how can you claim your hadiths guide (again 77.50)
____
YOU:Once again, one of the methods to be rightly guided is obeying the prophet. Please address this statement.
____
Obeying the prophet is OBEYING THE REASON THEY BECAME A PROPHET.
They were given guidance and had the duty of conveying it on people.
If he didn't have the words of Allah, the guidance, they would not be worthy of obeying.
Please explain in the Samiri incident,
did they OBEY the prophet and follow Allah
or OBEY the words of Samiri who took from the footsteps/tracks of the prophet, rather than the prophets words?
____
YOU:Loving Allah is connected with following the prophet.
____
Loving Allah is connected through following THE REVELATIONS bestowed upon the prophet.
____
YOU:1- Does the prophet give commands?
2- Did Muslims ask the prophet questions for clarification?
3- Did Mohammad point that somethings are halal or haram?
____
Q1,2 and 3
Yes. But all the answer the prophets gave were from the revelations of Allah and not out of their own desires.
Show me one place where the prophet made a move without the Quran and out of his own desire in hadiths?
____
YOU:Really, it is almost like you are saying that sahaba should obey and follow the prophet, but we are not required to.
____
Everyone who hears the words of Allah (the book) is part of the sahaba, like hearing the prophet reveal it to us the first time. like listening to the angel reveal it to the prophet, ike angel listening to Allah.
We are required to OBEY ALLAH the principle and the angels (the teachers), not the words of sahaba (the fellow students) about the student advisor (prophet)
____
YOU: As I said, Hadiths are not perfect, and stydying(sic) them is taken seriously.
____
How do you follow something that contains imperfection when Allah gave you a perfect book?
____
YOU:1- Demonstrate that all Hadiths are mean to recreate personal desires.
2- Explain how and what do you mean by Hadiths making something WITHOUT the truths approval
3- Demonstrate that Hadiths are not with conjunction with the truth.
____
1. All hadiths are the recording of what someone thought was worthy of being recorded.
Not from the prophet commanding them to record it, but out of there own desire.
2. The Hakk is the Al-Kitab. I have explained the answer to this at the start of this round.
ref: http://www.islamawakened.org......
3. Gladly
Volume 007, Book 069, Hadith Number 482. (also Bukhari 7:69:508)
------------------------------------
Narrated By Abu Huraira : On the night Allah's Apostle was taken on a night journey (Miraj) two cups, one containing wine and the other milk, were presented to him at Jerusalem. He looked at it and took the cup of milk. Gabriel said, "Praise be to Allah Who guided you to Al-Fitra (the right path); if you had taken (the cup of) wine, your nation would have gone astray."

GABRIEL PLAYED A GAME OF CHANCE WITH THE PROPHET.
ANGELS COME TO THE WORLD TO REVEAL not GAMBLE.
EXPLAIN how Abu Huraira and your so called salah hadiths are not the works of shaitain 5:90?
____
YOU:2- unless you are claiming that the prophet's words are in contradiction to Allah, I don't see how Hadiths contradicts your point.
____
It is not the prophet who is in error but the people who want EARTHLY FOODS and not what has been sent down".
just like hadiths.
____
YOU:I have addressed your points regarding humans being tempted, and standing with the prophet and Quran in the previous round.
____
No you haven't, please clarify
____
YOU:When you say that the prophet taught the people, you mean gave them the study material, which is the Quran. However, the Hadiths are the methods of recording those lessons he taught the people.
____
75:17-19
Indeed, upon Us (is) its collection and its recitation.
And when We have recited it, then follow its recitation.
Then indeed, upon Us (is) its explanation.
___
YOU:The prophet is a role model
___
Yes and who better than Allah can explain the BEST examples of ALL prophets (including Muhammad)?
___
YOU:Then there is the part regarding the ridiculous claim that the Quran explained everything.
___
Are you saying Allah forgot to explain his word? Why would he misguide?
___
YOU: Q1 to 6.
In Q4 you mentioned the word Jumu'ah. How did the people know it meant Friday or a day of the week?
The words used in the Quran were NOT INVENTED by the Quran, all these words and actions, with ilm and other supporting ayats can easily been answered.
___
YOU:Abu Huraira reported...
___
Answer my above question about his salah error, if you cant get the start right, what the point of reading it.
___
YOU: What is your criteria for calling something "Detailed"
____
Not my criteria:
16:89.."And We have revealed the Book to you which has -->clear explanation of everything<--, and a guidance, mercy and good news for those who submit."
___
YOU:The stonning(sic) is a symbolism of the incident.
___
Ibrahim asked his son, his son nor Ibrahim were not tempted. Prove it using Quran.

Leave YOU with this: Answer it.

Surah 96.1READ is the 1st revelation to prophet Muhammad (according to hadiths)

YET
96:9-10 Have you seen him who forbids, A servant when he prays?
How does the prophet know salah on the 1st revelation and was already FORBIDDEN?
Do you forget the kaaba was there and NOT EVERYONE around it was idol worshipping?
NOT EVERYONE was whistling and clapping, was the prophet?

I will respond to your final in later round due to space restriction.
Dragonfang

Con

I shall respond to my opponent's arguments as per the burden of proof.


3:79

Irrelevant since the prophet is not worshipped, neither did you demonstrate that Hadith is against the Quran.


75:17-19
Unless you are claiming that an angel is reading the Quran for you, the verse is talking about Mohammad (PBUH) only. This supports the legitimacy of the Hadith since the prophet was given greater understanding of the Quran.

12:111
As I said, the Quran gave general description for some matters, and detailed explanations for others.

[We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought. (Quran 16:44)
http://quran.com...

If you disagree, that would hypocritical as you can't even explain how to pray or the amount of the Zakat using the Quran alone.
Theoretical explanations are useful, but sometime practical demonstration is required, and that is what Mohammad (PBUH) provided.

Combined with the previous verse (75:19) the shows that Allah had explained the Quran to Mohammad (PBUH), and the verse showing that it is his job to explain the Quran for us (16:44).

77:50
Misinterruption, making it irrelevant. The previous ayat repeats: "Woe, that day, to the deniers". The verse talks to people who disbelief in the Quran, while you try to twist the verse into sounding like a scolding to people who follow Hadith.


Next, I shall rebut you rebuttal:

16:43-44

And my counter-question would be, "And how would you be able to gain that knowledge?". There are two methods, either through the Quran and by asking the prophet. Why are you dismissing the second method, even to gain a better understanding of the first method?

And logically, if you follow the prophets who follow the commandments of Allah, you would be following the commandments of Allah.

The commands of Allah includes PERSONALLY obeying the prophet. Since you admitted that he deserves to be obeyed, then that proves the legitimacy of the Hadith is it includes his commands.


But no, by your Lord, they will not [truly] believe until they make you, [O Muhammad], judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in [full, willing] submission. (Quran 4:65)
http://quran.com...

In this verse, Allah swears that no one will be considered a believer until they submit and follow the judgement of Mohammad (PBUH) over matters of dispute. Ergo, that judgement is not the Quran!


Zikr (Dhikr):

You just contradicted yourself. If the Quran is everything you need, then why do you need to ask people of the Zikr?
To remind you of the verses:


[43] And We sent not before you except men to whom We revealed [Our message]. So ask the people of the message if you do not know.
[44] [We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.
(Quran 16:43-44)

http://quran.com...

In the second part of the former verse, the command to ask is plural, therefore it is talking to Muslims in general.

I agree with the majority of tafsirs that the Zikr is the Quran, however the clarification (Bayan) is the Hadith.

Also, what do you mean that the prophet's response would be from the Zikr. Do you mean that the prophet would tell them to go see verse X from Sura X? How do you know the prophet's response?

Prophets misleading:

By saying that a prophet can mislead people. you are saying that Allah can indirectly mislead people since he sent that prophet whom people are supposed to obey.
What is your response to the prophet not speaking of his own desires? (53:3-4) That we should follow what the prophets orders and forbids? (59:7) Of him being a good example for every good Muslims? (33:21) That obeying the prophet is obeying Allah? (4:80)

[44] And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings,
[45] We would have seized him by the right hand;

[46] Then We would have cut from him the aorta.

[47] And there is no one of you who could prevent [Us] from him.

(Quran 69:44-47)
http://quran.com...


It is not for a human [prophet] that Allah should give him the Scripture and authority and prophethood and then he would say to the people, "Be servants to me rather than Allah ," but [instead, he would say], "Be pious scholars of the Lord because of what you have taught of the Scripture and because of what you have studied." (Quran 3:79)
http://quran.com...

The verse you provided is irrelevant since it talks about an anonymous person and not a prophet.

So once again: If Mohammad (PBUH) talked about something religious, would he be right or wrong? Should we follow what he said?



Samiri:

Once again, I do not agree with your interruption. The footsteps in 20:96 are literal footsteps, and the messenger could be either Moses or Gabriel (Prophet of the prophets), and he added them in the formation of the golden calf.
What you claim have no similarity what so ever with scholarly interruption. [2]


Being rightly guided:

The Quran said "Obey Allah (The reason for prophets being prophets) AND obey the messenger". These are two separate commands.


Say, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn away - then upon him is only that [duty] with which he has been charged, and upon you is that with which you have been charged. And if you obey him, you will be [rightly] guided. And there is not upon the Messenger except the [responsibility for] clear notification."
(Quran 24:54)
http://quran.com...

You seem to be creating red herrings. Will you be rightly guided if you obey the prophet or not? And how do you know what the prophet commanded?


Loving Allah and following the prophet:

Once again, you are adding words in accordance to your own desires.

Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah , then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
(Quran 3:31)
http://quran.com...

Where does it specifies "The revelations bestowed upon me"? This is an absolute command that generalizes everything. It say "Follow me". That is all.


Prophet giving commands:

So you admit that the prophet answers based on revelations. I agree. If you are accusing me of believing that the prophet is acting upon his own desires then this is a strawman. (Read 53:3-4)
However, you claim that the prophet answers every question based on the Quran


Sahaba:

Why are you calling angels teachers? Did they teach you and the Sahaba in your/their dreams?
Mohammad (PBUH) is the teacher for the rest of the Muslims and human beings, while he himself was taught by Allah and angels.
And once again, are the religious commands of the prophet different from the religious commands of Allah?


Perfection:

Because that imperfect book is the only way we can fully understand the perfect book. Otherwise, answer the questions about how to pray, perform Zakat, and perform Hajj.


Demonstrating assumptions about Hadith:

1- Circular logic: "recording Hadiths is from personal desires because they wanted to record it. Why did they want to record it? Because it is from their personal desires. Why is it from their personal desires? Because they wanted to record it."
2- You need to prove that the Quran is the ONLY hakk. Which you didn't.
3- You did not provide a satisfactory answer to falsify the Hadith. Basically your objection is based on "Your own desires" and you image you made. I don't agree with your definition of gambling.


Prophet's words and contradiction with Allah:

If the prophet is not in error, then that means his words are sent down.


Addressing points about being tempted:

My points are already below the rebuttal of Pharaoh being an Imam. I have already addressed the rest of your claims, thus there is no need to post them again.


The prophet teaching people:

Red Herring. You did not address my point. Verses of 75:17-19 are already explained to not support your claim at the beginning of this argument.


The prophet being a role model:


"Quran explained everything":

Strawman. I have already stated that this duty was left to Mohammad (PBUH). Which is really the main point of my position.

Your lack of answer to the questions I proposed was disappointing.
Regarding the Red Herring of where the word "Jumu'ah" came from, the answer is simple: Arabs used different names for days of the week before Islam. When the Hijri calendar was created by Umar ibn Al-Khattāb, "Jumu'ah" was used for Friday in reference to the Jumu'ah prayer.

Then to justify your lack of answer, you claim that these questions can be "Easily" answered. Well, then why aren't you answering them at all?
My point stands that you are unable to answer these questions using the Quran alone.


You made a genetic fallacy when you refused to acknowledge the hadith I provided although you previous asked for it.


As for 16:89, let me explain my argument with an example:
A father was traveling away from his family right, so he gave his children some instructions (Don't stay out late, help your grandmother, do well in school, etc...), and then he gave them a final command "Do what your mother tells you".
If you don't follow that final command, you wouldn't be fully following the father's commands.



As for your final challenge regarding Sura 96, ugh, you made a false assumption. Full suras don't get revealed together.
"Him" mainly refers to Abu Jahl. [3]
This aya was revealed after prayer was ordered, not when Gabriel first met Mohammad.

Mohammad (PBUH) was a Hanif (monotheist) before Islam. However, historically the vast majority in Mecca were Pagan, meaning that they properly whistled and clapped.



[1] http://quran.com...
[2] http://www.altafsir.com...
[3] http://www.altafsir.com...
Debate Round No. 4
Al-Kitab

Pro

YOU: Irrelevant since the prophet is not worshipped,

3:79 - The EXACT word is Iba'da'an, the SAME EXACT word is used in 17:5.

It does not mean WORSHIP.

In 17:5 it explicitly means "servant".

Again READ the ayat.

3:79..."Be servants to me rather than God"...

How do you serve (near worship) someone?

This is called idolisation.

.....and you say you dont idolise him?

You don't dress the same, walk, talk, eat, sleep like him?

For Allahs sake he lifted his finger during a pray and you all do the same.

Imagine he sneezed. Wow that would be a site.

Every prophet was a part of their nation, they all walked different, talked different, had a different perspective but the same message. THESE WERE THE SAME "FIRST SOURCE" of the final prophet.

Every question he had, these same narrations between our hands guided him. If the prophets FIRST source is the Quran FOR EVERY QUESTION, then a TRUE follower is one who obeys the prophet by following his example, not his culture.

How can you take ANY OTHER source when your prophets first and ONLY source for guidance was the Quran?

YOU: 75:17-19 the verse is talking about Mohammad (PBUH) only.

So Allah uses "we" in the Quran continually and now the prophet is a part of that we?

So was the prophet involved with the creating of the heavens and the earth?

BTw for your reference the angel speaks directly to our messenegers "within" us acccording to

49.7

And Know

wa-ilamu

وَاعْلَمُوا

that

anna

أَنَّ

IN you

fikum

فِيكُمْ

(is the) Messenger

rasula

رَسُولَ

(of) Allah.

l-lahi

اللَّهِ

YOU: but sometime practical demonstration is required, and that is what Mohammad (PBUH) provided.

Do you REALLY THINK Allah sent Prophet Ibrahim to establish the house and salah and he didnt complete the task 100%?

Do you think Ibrahim forgot to mention the steps of salah

and for thousands of years (from him to the final prophet)

nobody knew how to pray?

The final prophet came to remove the man made additions. He didnt create ANYTHING new. We have established Ibrahim (2.125) stood, bowed and prostrated so we know the perfect "PRACTICAL DEMONSTRATION" was already set in place thousands of years before the prophet.

YOU: can't explain how to pray or the amount of the Zakat using the Quran alone.

Lets take your logic, that we can't explain it without Quran (ALLAHS WORD)


Please explain to me if the how the prophet explained it without Quran?
Wasnt the book his first and only source? Wasn't EVERYTHING he heard recorded? At what stage did the angel give him other than Allahs words to guide. Was Zakah and salah explained to us through his own desires?

I didnt explain Zakah cause I ran out of time not cAUSE THE QURAN DOESN'T EXPLAIN IT.
http://www.19.org...

Allah explained "WE" in 75.19 explain it to Muhammad and he communicates what "WE" word for word gave him.


YOU: Allah had explained the Quran to Mohammad (PBUH), and the verse showing that it is his job to explain the Quran

I dont get your logic. it doesnt make sense.

If Allah explained something, why does anyone worldly need to re-explain? Is Allah not All sufficient?

The Quran is what guided the prophet, it was the same words he recieved to find Islam.
How could he explain any additional guidance or explain the word, when the word is what guided him.

If you asked the prophet he would not start explaining it. HE WOULD GIVE YOU direct reference within the book.
Show me one prophet who would do anything different?


YOU: 77.50 Misinterruption, making it irrelevant. The previous ayat repeats: "Woe, that day, to the deniers". The verse talks to people who disbelief in the Quran,


Answer the question:
IS YOUR HADITH AFTER THE QURAN?

If you disagree with ONE ayat, it means you believe there is a contradiction in the Quran?

This ayat, is about the deniers correct, but,its SPECIFCALLY about those who rejected the completeness of the Quran and accepted any hadith AFTER it. Concidently the category you fall into, the breakers of the convenat of Allah.

YOU:There are two methods, either through the Quran and by asking the prophet. Why are you dismissing the second method, even to gain a better understanding of the first method?

I think your a little confused about second method.
What is the second method?
not hadiths. Let me explain.


The second source (the prophet)
looked to the first source (the Quran) for answers
and your trying to convince me,
that I need a third source (hadiths)
about the second source (prophet)
or else I'm not going to understand the first source(Quran)?

Heres a hypthertical for you.
Tony is the best Mechanic in the world.
Everyone loves him and turns to him for answers.
You ask Tony a question and you notice Tony opens up a book and give you the answer.
Someone else asks Tony opens the book and again gives the answer.
Tony answers all his questions through the book.
If Tony dies, why should I ask Tom, Dick and Harry about Tony, when ALL of Tonys mechanical wisdom is in the book?

The problem with hadiths akhi is they're stuck in time.
They don't renew themselves,
We are not accountable for their actions...including the final prophets.

The Quran is written for ALL of mankind not a period in history.
From before us till after us. It is for now and deals with current issues.
It changes with time.
Everything else time changes.
Why do you need
1400+ years of human history for guidance
when the Quran changes with times
and is the guide of all?
Let me remind you
The prophets also made mistakes, he was human.
The book guided him, if he made a mistake it was from him, not something the read in the book.
Why would you make the same mistakes? 

YOU: And logically, if you follow the prophets who follow the commandments of Allah, 
you would be following the commandments of Allah.

LOGICALLY the prophets followed the commandments, you follow the prophet not Allah.

They are fighting for a cause, you a fighting for a person.
Its like saying they are freedom fighters and you dont care about the message but the people involved.


Its not about the messeneger but about the message!


YOU: 4:65 submit and follow the judgement of Mohammad over matters of dispute.

that judgement is not the Quran!

Your not serious are you?
So what did the prophet base his judgment on these disputes, his own personal desires or the book?
If you make a judgement now, is it based on Muhammads judgement or Allahs?

Prophet Ibrahim said:
[26.82] And Who, I hope, will forgive me my mistakes on the day of judgment.
So Prophet Muhammad couldnt even judge himself,
how do you think he can judge without Allah (Quran)?


YOU: why do you need to ask people of the Zikr?

The people of Zikr are the ones who remind you of the contents book, not human history (hadiths)


YOU:I agree with the majority of tafsirs that the Zikr is the Quran, however the clarification (Bayan) is the Hadith.

How can man made hadiths
explain a book from Allah
that cant be explained with it explaining itself?


YOU: Do you mean that the prophet would tell them to go see verse X from Sura X?
How do you know the prophet's response?

Hadith 1, Volumne 1, Number 1:
O rasul, what is to answer to ANY QUESTION?

He is the messenger of Allah. He is a prophet to CONVEY the message.
Whatever question you think to ask the prophet he will answer from ONLY within the pages,
or he would be speaking from his own desire.
He would not give surah ayat or titles,
those were introduce into the book in the Islamic Golden Age for referencing and indexing purposes.


YOU: you are saying that Allah can indirectly mislead people
since he sent that prophet whom people are supposed to obey.

7:175-176 And recite to them (the) story (of the) one whom We gave [him] Our Verses, but he detached [from] them,
so followed him the Shaitaan and he became of those gone astray. And if We willed surely,
We (could) have raised him with these [and] but he adhered to the earth and followed his (vain) desires"..

Read it again.
If a prophet CLUNG TO THESE VERSES and hidden the message, he would have mislead people.
I do not indirectly say Allah misleads.
Allah guides man, without Allah man can only guide astray.


YOU: The verse you provided is irrelevant since it talks about an anonymous person and not a prophet.

HOW DARE YOU say there is something in the Quran thats irreleveant. It speaks of a man whom the verses were given to.

He would be a prophet but failed, thats why he is not even worthy of being addressed. If he had delivered the message,
he would have been a prophet.


YOU: If Mohammad (PBUH) talked about something religious, would he be right or wrong?
If he responded in a prophetic way (from the book) he is worthy of seperating right and wrong.


YOU: And how do you know what the prophet commanded?
Everything he commanded is recorded in the book. Without the book, he isnt a commander.


YOU: Loving Allah
How else can one follow the messenger, but by accepting and following that which he delivered
All the commands in the Quran have been given to follow the 'messenger' and NEVER to follow 'the prophet or Mohammed').

YOU: prophet answers based on revelations. I agree -
However, you claim that the prophet answers every question based on the Quran

You are answering yourself. Need I say more


YOU: Sahaba
The word sahab means someone next to you. Not somone righteous. It has no connotation.

e.g.

2.119 ...companions of hell fire
5.86 ...these are the companions of the flame
12.41 O my companions of Prison...

ALSO

26.61-62
So when the two hosts saw each other, the companions of Musa cried out: Most surely we are being overtaken.
He said: By no means; surely my Lord is with me: He will show me a way out.

In this ayat we find a separation.
Prophet Musa doesn't say Allah is with US but ME, singular plural to his "SAHABA"
companions.
Also in 9.40 we find Allah seperating the prophet 
from the sahaba (ABU BAKR)

....Allah sent down His tranquillity upon him and strengthened him

not them.

YOU: Perfection

How can imperfect 1+1=3 AS YOU ADMIT HADITHS ARE

explain perfect
1+1=2
Quran
?

Dragonfang

Con

3:79

First there is an unneeded discussion of semantics about the difference between serving and worshipping.
In which Pro then uses semantics to throw accusations using unclear terms like "near worship" and "idolization".


I am a human being, so when I command you about a thing pertaining to religion, do accept it, and when I command you about a thing out of my personal opinion, keep it in mind that I am a human being. 'Ikrima reported that he said something like this.
http://sunnah.com...


There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often. (Quran 33:21)
http://quran.com...

Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah , then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." (Quran 3:31)
http://quran.com...



There is zero requirement to follow any culture or customs. However, we follow religious acts and ethical standards.


As I said, how come you can't even explain how to pray using the Quran while claiming you can find every answer within it?Therefore, your statement is a Ad nauseam (Argument from repitition/Proof from asertion) fallacy.




75:17-19

[17] Indeed, upon Us is its collection [in your heart] and [to make possible] its recitation.
[18] So when We have recited it [through Gabriel], then follow its recitation.
[19] Then upon Us is its clarification [to you].
(Quran 75:17-19)
http://quran.com...


The verses are talking to a singular, not a group. Meaning that it can either be talking to the prophet or to the Muslims as a whole. Since only the prophet have angels reciting the Quran for him, this means that the verses are only speaking to the prophet.

Really, unless you are claiming angels are communicating with you, you have no argument.


Practical demonstration:

You provided zero historical evidence to your claim. There is none.
Did prophets instruct people to Hajj toward the Kaaba before Ibrahim? Perhabs Salat was something introduced to everyone after Mohammad (PBUH), and perhabs it wasn't.

However, that is not the point. You actually conceeded your resolution in this debate and contradicted yourself. You were supposed to defend the claim that "The Quran alone is everything needed in Islam" (Hadith were your main obstacle), but now you are claiming that we also need to follow practical demonstrations from Ibrahim (PBUH) which may or may not have existed (Probably not due to the lack of any historical indication) ALONGSIDE the Quran.

For argument's sake, lets assume Arabs knew how to pray but they just wouldn't do it. If that is the case, then there is absolutely no reason not to follow practical demonstrations from Mohammad (PBUH).


If you mean that we should follow the practical demonstration Ibrahim taught his people (According to you) beside the Quran so we can learn how to pray, then I have won the debate.


Explaining prayer and zakat through Quran:

Once again, you are making a baseless assertion. You are claiming that the Quran is the only method of revelation, however that is untrue.


[51] And it is not for any human being that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise.
[52] And thus We have revealed to you an inspiration of Our command. You did not know what is the Book or [what is] faith, but We have made it a light by which We guide whom We will of Our servants. And indeed, [O Muhammad], you guide to a straight path -
(Quran 42:51-52)
http://quran.com...

It can be a revelation with no medium like dreams or inspiration, it could be directly behind a partition like Allah talking to Moses (PBUH), or it can be via. an angel.


It is interesting that you cited the same website that claimed there are only three required prayers per day in Islam. Unfortunately, the page you used as an argument doesn't answer my question:

Although unlike in the case of sadaqa, the Quran nowhere mentions where the zakat should go, and by how much in relation to income or wealth, both sadaqa and zakat appear to mean the same thing in principle, and also in practice.


So really, you are unable to explain how to perform obligatory duties using the Quran alone.

And establish prayer and give zakah and obey the Messenger - that you may receive mercy. (Quran 24:56)
http://quran.com...

If we use the Quran alone we would not be able to learn how to do it. Thus we wouldn't be able to follow the Quran.


Explaining the Quran:

Allah did explain through his prophet, this answers your question. The wisdom behind choosing this method is an other topic.

The Quran can be interrupted in different ways. Just like you claimed that "Obey the messanger" is an other term for "Obey what is written in the Quran" which is circular logic.


I have already shown a Hadiths that shows Mohammad (PBUH) doing different. I believe the Hadith about following how he prays is more than sufficient.
Now you show one prophet that do something your way. As a matter of fact, how did you even manage to get to that conclusion anyway? Mere assertion? Following your own desires?


77:50

Once again, it is a scolding to disbelievers (If you do not believe in the Quran, then what will you believe in), not a warning for people who believe in the Quran.
To demonstrate my point, lets look at similar verses:


http://quran.com...


So according to you:
1- Allah praised his prophet as a clear warner.
2- Allah took his prophet as a competiteor. His hadith vs the Quran.
3- Allah warned the prophet's supporters and followers through the Quran, which was revealed through the prophet, to not follow what the prophet says.

As I said, your interruption makes no sense.



http://quran.com...


Notice the terms: (Enjoins - Forbids - Makes lawful - Prohibits - Relieves).
The person performing these actions on behalf of Allah is Mohammad (PBUH). If all these only existed through the Quran, then these actions wouldn't have been atrributed to Mohammad (PBUH).



Methods of revelation:

The hadiths and prophet are the same method.

Your analogy is false. To correct it, Tony further explains a concept in the book.


Mohammad (PBUH) is the final messenger (33:40). Meaning that the commands of Allah applies to the end of time. Since these commands are also included in Hadith, they aslo apply to the end of time.
Of course there are a number of principles that helps us accommodate for the change of time like "Don't hurt others or yourself".

I agree that Mohammad (PBUH) is affected by human limitations and can makes mistakes just like anyone else. However, you have not responded to the point that this does not apply to religious matter and duties.

[2] Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred,
[3] Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination.
[4]It is not but a revelation revealed,
(Quran 53:2-4)
http://quran.com...

Hadith not only allow us better understanding, they also put boundaries. For example, does a merchant you cut the hand of a boy who stole an apple, or are there courts, amount stolen, intention behind stealing, whether breaking in was involved etc...

Logically following commandament:

A very weak analogy sicne you wouldn't even know the cause you are fighting for.


Judgement of the Prophet:

You are not paying attention are you? Yes I am as that is what is written in the verse. Funny thing you did not deny it.
Prophets are sent with revelation. There is no point in sending them if they do not follow it.

Following Mohammad's (PBUH) judgement would be following Allah's command.

Prophets do not insist on errors or repeat them, and they ask for forgiveness (Adam & Moses).
Asking for forgiveness doesn't mean that they may enter hell, it means piety and being humble.

http://sunnah.com...


Asking people of Zikr:

You did not answer my question. If the Quran is all you need, why are you required to ask anyone?

Bayan:

Do you consider the Quran man-made? I mean the people who recorded, wrote it, etc.. are men. What matters is the content.


The Prophet's response:

Do you mean the Hadiths like where he told us to pray like he does are all false and forged? You did not prove this statement.


Indirectly misleading:

Once again, you did not prove that the verses are talking about prophets and not an anonymous person.

And yes, that means that you are claiming Allah is indirectly leading people to falsehood:

And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah . And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful. (Quran 4:64)
http://quran.com...



http://quran.com...
http://quran.com...

Irrelevant verse:

Throwing a fit over ignoring the context. Irrelevant to the issue being discussed.
I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that the verse is talking about a prophet instead of a normal person. I am baffled by how you are so sure with zero supporting evidence. In fact, you even ignored the verses about how prophets should be followed.


Right and Wrong:

Sigh. You rarely ever explain your assumptions or provide evidence.
Why are other types of revelations unprophetic?
The prophet is unworthy of seperating right and wrong in Hadiths?

What the prophet commanded:

Wow! Mere assertions. Unfortunately, you did not provide evidence that Mohammad (PBUH) did not say anything in Hadiths.


Sahaba:

Once again, you missed the point and ignored my questions. Red herring since I didn't say Sahaba means righteous or all Sahaba are righeous.


Perfection:

Sunna is not asking for a replacement for the Quran, it is asking from someone who knows the Quran better than anyone else.

I am not sure what you mean by perfect. However, you can't explain basic acts of worship using the Quran alone.




I thank my opponent for the debate, and I hope he learned from it like I did.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by iamanatheistandthisiswhy 3 years ago
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
So you reject the hadith?

If you are saying the Koran is perfect I will gladly accept this debate.

I just need some clarification as the proposition is very vague
Posted by lolzors93 3 years ago
lolzors93
Why not the Bible alone? That sounds good to me... ;)
No votes have been placed for this debate.