The Instigator
Valtin
Con (against)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
SNP1
Pro (for)
Winning
11 Points

Qur'an is fallible

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Post Voting Period
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after 4 votes the winner is...
SNP1
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/20/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,992 times Debate No: 55092
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (15)
Votes (4)

 

Valtin

Con

SNP1 can argue in the first round, no arguments in the last round, SNP1 has the BoP to show that the Qur'an is indeed fallible, I will attempt to refute his claims.
SNP1

Pro

I thank my opponent for allowing me to make my arguments in the first round.

Definition of fallible- capable of making mistakes or being wrong.

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

Now, this could mean being wrong about something external or internal. If there are contradictions within the Qur"an it means that at least one of the verses involved is wrong.

Some scientific inconsistencies:

The Qur"an says that the Sun sets into a muddy spring where there lived a group of people.

Qur"an 18:86 "Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness."

Qur"an 18:90 "Till, when he reached the rising-place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter therefrom."

This is inconsistent with the evidence that we have, that the Sun does not set, especially onto the Earth, but that the Earth spins on an axis.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...
http://www.polaris.iastate.edu...

The Qur"an also says that the stars are used a missles by Allah.

Qur"an 67:5 "And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with stars/lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame. "

But the stars are actually giant balls of gas undergoing nuclear fusion.

http://cas.sdss.org...
http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu...

The Qur"an also says that the moon emits light.

Qur"an 71:16 "And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp?"

But the moon actually is just reflecting light off of the sun.

http://www2.astro.psu.edu...

The Qur"an also states that the darkness of night is a veil over the day.

Qur"an 7:54 "Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession:"

But the darkness is not actually a veil, it is the absence of light. Night is the absence of light due to the rotation of Earth.

http://www.tes.co.uk...
http://www.climatechangematters.net.au...

The Qur"an also says there are 7 planets.

Qur"an 65:12 "Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number. Through the midst of them (all) descends His Command: that ye may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah comprehends, all things in (His) Knowledge."

However, there are more than 7 planets.

http://phys.org...

The Qur"an also has the 6 day creation myth.

Qur"an 50:38 "We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six Days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us"

But the universe was created 13.8 billion years ago, the Earth about 4.5 billion years ago.

http://www.space.com...
http://www.space.com...

The Qur"an also supports the creation of life myth.

Qur"an 7:189 "We created man from sounding clay, from mud molded into shape;"

However, science shows us that man was actually formed from years of evolution.

http://humanorigins.si.edu...

The Qur"an states that all life was formed in pairs.

Qur"an 51:49 "And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction."

However, not all animals live in a male-female pairing. The whiptail lizard, for example, is an all female species that reproduces asexually.

http://www.scientificamerican.com...

The Qur"an also says that birds only stay a flight because Allah holds them up.

Qur"an 16:79 "Do they not look at the birds, held poised in the midst of (the air and) the sky? Nothing holds them up but (the power of) Allah. Verily in this are signs for those who believe"

However, scientists understand the aerodynamics of the bird"s structure, and how it can actually flyby creating a pressure difference.

https://van.physics.illinois.edu...

The Qur"an states that all animals live in communities.

Qur"an 6:38 "There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end. "

However, there are some animals that live solitary lives, such as the jaguar, leopard, and panda.

http://www.wcs.org...
http://www.cnd.org...
http://www.nhptv.org...

As you can see, there are many scientific inconsistencies within the Qur"an. There are also internal inconsistencies.

Was the Earth created before the heavens?

Qur"an 2:29 " It is He who hath created for you all things that are on Earth; THEN He turned to the Heaven and made them into seven firmaments (Skies)"

So the Earth first?

Qur"an- 79:27-30 "Are you the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built ? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; and He has made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morning thereof. And after that, He spread (flattened) the earth"

But here it is Heaven first.

How many days did it take Allah to create the Earth?

Qur"an-7:54 "Your guardian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in Six Days"

So, 6 days?

Qur"an-41:9 "Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?"

Wait, 2 days?

Qur"an- 41:10 "He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS""

Plus 4 days?

Qur"an-41:12 "So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days and"

Plus 2 days? Wait, but that adds up to 8 days, not 6!

How long is Allah"s day?

Qur"an 22:47 "Verily a day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning"

So, 1000 years=1 day?

Qur"an 70:4 "The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a day the measure whereof is Fifty thousands years"

Wait, 50,000 years=1 day?

There are many inconsistencies within the Qur"an, both with the external and with the internal. These inconsistencies show that the Qur"an is mistaken, it is fallible.

If you still claim it is not fallible, do you think that you need someone to explain the Qur"an?

Qur"an 54:17 "And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?"

If you wish to say that the Qur"an needs to be explained you are then saying that this part of the Qur"an is incorrect, making the Qur"an fallible.
Debate Round No. 1
Valtin

Con

Thanks for presenting your arguments.

R1:

"The Qur"an says that the Sun sets into a muddy spring where there lived a group of people.

Qur"an 18:86 "Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness."

Qur"an 18:90 "Till, when he reached the rising-place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter therefrom."

Clearly the Qur'an points out that Dhul-Qarneyn found the Sun like that, it means it appeared to Dhul-Qarneyn that the Sun is setting on the water, It is how Dhul-Qarneyn found it, how it appeared to him, the Qur'an does not say that the Sun sets on anything, as it says that it appeared to Dhul Qarneyn.


"The Qur"an also says that the stars are used a missles by Allah.

Qur"an 67:5 "And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with stars/lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame. "

But the stars are actually giant balls of gas undergoing nuclear fusion."

"And verily We have adorned the lowest heaven, the one closest to the earth, with lamps, with stars, and made them missiles against the devils, should they [attempt to] listen by stealth, in which case a meteor of fire detaches itself from the star, just like a brand is taken from a fire, and either kills that jinn or deprives him of his senses: it is not that the star itself is displaced from its position; and We have prepared for them the chastisement of the Blaze, the ignited Fire."
[1] (Tafsir Al- Jalalayn)

Clearly it says that a meteor of fire detaches itself from the star, not the stars as a missle, and this is the Lowest heaven, which we did not discover as humans, so this verse cannot be disproved nor proved, because we have not observed it.

"The Qur"an also says that the moon emits light.

Qur"an 71:16 "And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp?"

But the moon actually is just reflecting light off of the sun."

More accurate translation is "And made the moon therein a [reflected] light and made the sun a burning lamp?"
because the word used for 'burning lamp' is 'Siraj', Siraj means a source of light, clearly the Qur'an says that the Moon has light and the Sun is the source of light.

"The Qur"an also states that the darkness of night is a veil over the day.

Qur"an 7:54 "Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession:"

But the darkness is not actually a veil, it is the absence of light. Night is the absence of light due to the rotation of Earth."

Tafsir al Jalalayn will suffice:
"Surely your Lord is God, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, of the days of this world, that is to say, in the equivalent thereof, since there was no sun then. Had He willed He could have created them in an instant; but the reason for His not having done so is that He wanted to teach His creatures to be circumspect; then presided upon the Throne, a presiding befitting of Him (al-‘arsh, ‘throne’, in the [classical] language is the elevated seat on which a king sits). He cloaks (read yughshī or yughashshī) the night with the day, that is, He covers each one with the other: each following the other in swift pursuit —"
[2]

"The Qur"an also says there are 7 planets.

Qur"an 65:12 "Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number. Through the midst of them (all) descends His Command: that ye may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah comprehends, all things in (His) Knowledge."

However, there are more than 7 planets."

The verse actually says that there are 7 planets similar to the Earth, does not say that the universe contains only 7 planets.

"The Qur"an also has the 6 day creation myth.

Qur"an 50:38 "We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six Days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us"

But the universe was created 13.8 billion years ago, the Earth about 4.5 billion years ago."

Qur'an does not describe this 6 periods of time(I will explain this later on) as day and night(as described in the Bible), so the word used is 'Yawm' which also means a period of time, Shakir translates it more accuratly:
"And certainly We created the heavens and the earth and what is between them in six periods and there touched Us not any fatigue."


"The Qur"an also supports the creation of life myth.

Qur"an 7:189 "We created man from sounding clay, from mud molded into shape;"

However, science shows us that man was actually formed from years of evolution."

Evolution is a theory, and cannot be used to disprove the 'Creation of life', as it is not a fact, if you go through the source you have given, there is much we do not know about, in 23:14 "Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah , the best of creators."

"The Qur"an states that all life was formed in pairs.

Qur"an 51:49 "And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction."

However, not all animals live in a male-female pairing. The whiptail lizard, for example, is an all female species that reproduces asexually."

http://en.wikipedia.org...

From the above link we can see:

As we clearly and indisputably see, the scientists themselves:

1- Never unlocked all of the deep secrets of how these animals truly reproduce.

2- Are unsure of how exactly the reproduction occurs with these species.

3- These species are NOT ASEXUAL because they still do produce Males and Females

(The offspring of parthenogenesis will be all female if two like chromosomes determine the female sex (such as the XY sex-determination system), but they will be male if two like chromosomes determine the male sex (such as the ZW sex-determination system), because the process involves the inheritance and subsequent duplication of only a single sex chromosome.)

4- The scientists claims are no more than speculations at best! They are uncertainties and doubts; unconfirmed science.


"The Qur"an also says that birds only stay a flight because Allah holds them up.

Qur"an 16:79 "Do they not look at the birds, held poised in the midst of (the air and) the sky? Nothing holds them up but (the power of) Allah. Verily in this are signs for those who believe"

However, scientists understand the aerodynamics of the bird"s structure, and how it can actually flyby creating a pressure difference."

This verse is nowhere related to science, It just says that Allah is the sustainer and enables the bird to fly with his power, how does this work? it is figured as said by the underlined.

"The Qur"an states that all animals live in communities.

Qur"an 6:38 "There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end. "

However, there are some animals that live solitary lives, such as the jaguar, leopard, and panda."

I will refute this next round since I only have 100 characters left.


"Was the Earth created before the heavens?

Qur"an 2:29 " It is He who hath created for you all things that are on Earth; THEN He turned to the Heaven and made them into seven firmaments (Skies)"

So the Earth first?

Qur"an- 79:27-30 "Are you the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built ? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; and He has made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morning thereof. And after that, He spread (flattened) the earth"

But here it is Heaven first."

The first verse uses the word "Khalaqa" (created). The second set of verses only say that God "Daha" (spread out and gave features) the earth after the creation of the heavens, not that he "Khalaqa" (created) it. Please verify my claims by referring to any convenient dictionary, such as "Lisan Al-Arab." In other words, God created the earth, created the heavens, and then gave the earth its features and spread them out. This is explained in sufficient detail by the Companion of the Prophet Ibn Abbas who's words in this regard have been recorded in Sahih Al-Bukhari. The very verses themselves even explain it for those who would like to read the very next verse. The verses say "And the earth He "daha" after that; He extracted from its water and its fodder, and the mountains He planted firmly..." Thus, it is quite clear from the verses themselves what is meant by this word. It simply means "to spread out and give features, such as streams, mountains, plants, etc." [3]

Creation of Earth & Heavens:
Then Pro quotes Qur'an 7:54 which clearly says that HEAVENS & EARTH were created in 6 days, but in 41:9 EARTH was created in 2 days, Pro needs to read the verses again, because he is in error.

Qur'an 41:10 clearly says that the Earth was created in 2 days, but mountains and everything in earth(i.e. Plants and flowers) were in 4 days including the 2 days, from the verse before(41:9) then in 41:12 seven heavens were created in 2 days, so 2 days for earth, 2 days for universe(Heavens, apart from Earth), 2 days for everything in earth, 2+2+2=6 not 8, keep it to the context of chapter 41.


Days of the Lord:
Now 22:47 says that 1 day is 1000 years, but in 70:4 it says that the day of Judgement is fifty thousand years not the day of the Lord.



[1]http://www.altafsir.com...
[2]http://www.altafsir.com...;
[3]http://www.answering-christianity.com...;
SNP1

Pro

"Clearly the Qur'an points out that Dhul-Qarneyn found the Sun like that, it means it appeared to Dhul-Qarneyn that the Sun is setting on the water, It is how Dhul-Qarneyn found it, how it appeared to him, the Qur'an does not say that the Sun sets on anything, as it says that it appeared to Dhul Qarneyn."

Qur"an 18:86 "Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness."

It says "setting in a muddy spring", keyword is "in", and remember that this is at the "setting-place" of the sun.

"Clearly it says that a meteor of fire detaches itself from the star, not the stars as a missle, and this is the Lowest heaven, which we did not discover as humans, so this verse cannot be disproved nor proved, because we have not observed it."

That makes it even more wrong then. A meteor does not come from a star. You might say this is in the "Lowest heaven", but we do know what a meteor and what a star is.

"More accurate translation is"

How come you say a more accurate translation? Are you saying that the Qur"an is not easy to understand that certain translations would be wrong?

"Tafsir al Jalalayn"

You are saying that I need a Tafsir? Are you saying that the Qur"an is not easy to understand?

"The verse actually says that there are 7 planets similar to the Earth, does not say that the universe contains only 7 planets"

Only 7? Lets take a look at the universe, shall we?
"As of April 2014, the Habitable Exoplanets Catalog lists 21 planets that have the best chance for life beyond our solar system" (http://www.space.com...)
I think that 21 is more than 7.

"Qur'an does not describe this 6 periods of time(I will explain this later on) as day and night(as described in the Bible)"

Really now?

"Shakir translates it more accuratly"

Let"s take a look really quickly:

Sahih International: "And We did certainly create the heavens and earth and what is between them in six days, and there touched Us no weariness."
Pickthall: "And verily We created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six Days, and naught of weariness touched Us."
Yusuf Ali: "We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six Days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us."
Shakir: "And certainly We created the heavens and the earth and what is between them in six periods and there touched Us not any fatigue."
Muhammad Sarwar: "We created the heavens, the earth, and all that is between them in six days without experiencing any fatigue."
Mohsin Khan: "And indeed We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in six Days and nothing of fatigue touched Us."
Arberry: "We created the heavens and the earth, and what between them is, in six days, and no weariness touched Us."

Looks like Shakir is the only one that doesn"t say days. Are you saying that the Qur"an is not easy enough to understand that only one got it right?

"Evolution is a theory, and cannot be used to disprove the 'Creation of life', as it is not a fact"

This shows that you do not understand science. Gravity is a theory. The Earth orbiting the Sun (heliocentric solar system) is a theory.

Scientific definitions (http://www.nas.edu...):
Scientific Theory: a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence.
Scientific Fact: an observation, measurement, or other form of evidence that can be expected to occur the same way under similar circumstances. OR. a scientific explanation that has been tested and confirmed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing it or looking for additional examples.

"Because the evidence supporting it is so strong, scientists no longer question whether biological evolution has occurred and is continuing to occur. Instead, they investigate the mechanisms of evolution, how rapidly evolution can take place, and related questions."

This means that evolution IS a scientific fact. This is coming from the National Academy of Sciences, one of the most prestigious science academies out there.

Therefore, yes, I can use evolution.

"From the above link we can see:"

Really? Wikipedia?

"As we clearly and indisputably see, the scientists themselves:
1- Never unlocked all of the deep secrets of how these animals truly reproduce."

Where does it imply this?

"2- Are unsure of how exactly the reproduction occurs with these species."

Did you read the article? Can you quote what gave you this idea?

"3- These species are NOT ASEXUAL because they still do produce Males and Females"

From YOUR own source:
1. "In apomictic parthenogenesis, the offspring are clones of the mother and hence are usually (except for aphids) female. In the case of aphids, parthenogenetically produced males and females are clones of their mother except that the males lack one of the X chromosomes (XO)."
2. "In polyploid obligate parthenogens like the whiptail lizard, all the offspring are female."

"4- The scientists claims are no more than speculations at best! They are uncertainties and doubts; unconfirmed science."

Where does it even say this? I might have missed it, but at least quote it, otherwise it is worthless to even bring it up.

"This verse is nowhere related to science, It just says that Allah is the sustainer and enables the bird to fly with his power, how does this work? it is figured as said by the underlined."

Let"s look at what it says again.
Qur"an 16:79 "Do they not look at the birds, held poised in the midst of (the air and) the sky? NOTHING holds them up BUT (the power of) Allah. Verily in this are signs for those who believe"
This is saying that ONLY the power of Allah holds them up. When we look at how a bird can fly we see that the bird flies by using its wings to create a pressure difference above and below, thus pushing them up. This means that even if Allah did exist and created the ability for a bird to do this that Allah is not the only thing "holding" them up, the air pressure difference is doing it. We also cannot say that Allah designed the bird to be able to do this either as I have already explained evolution above.

"Qur'an 41:10 clearly says that the Earth was created in 2 days, but mountains and everything in earth(i.e. Plants and flowers) were in 4 days including the 2 days"

Actually, there is nothing to even imply it was the 2 days before, in fact it is directly addressing the same sentence, which does not include the original 2 days.
Qur"an- 41:10 "He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS"
So, 8 days or 6 days? BTW, didn"t you also say earlier that it does not say days but periods? Why does it say days here?
ALSO, by the way, this puts heaven as being made last while you said in the "Heaven or Earth first" part that he made Earth, made the Heavens, then made the features. Another contradiction?

Want some more contradictions?

Does man need Allah or does Allah need man?
Qur"an 51:56 "I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve me"
So, Allah made man to serve him?
Qur"an 35:15 "O mankind! It is you that have need of God: but God is the One Free of all wants, worthy of all praise"
But Allah has no wants?

Who is to be blamed for belief and disbelief?
Qur"an 6:12 "It is they who have lost their own souls, that they will not believe"
So, it is the disbelievers?
Qur"an 10:100 "No soul can believe except by the will of Allah"
Wait, so it is Allah"s?

Who is to be blamed for wrong doings?
Qur"an 35:8 "Allah leaves stray whom He wills and guides whom He wills"
So, it is Allah"s for leaving them stray?
Qur"an 30:9 "It was not Allah who wronged them, but they wronged their own souls"
Here it says it is man"s own fault. Which is it?

As you can see, there are many contradictions. I will also repost the last part of my first round.

"There are many inconsistencies within the Qur"an, both with the external and with the internal. These inconsistencies show that the Qur"an is mistaken, it is fallible.

If you still claim it is not fallible, do you think that you need someone to explain the Qur"an?

Qur"an 54:17 "And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?"

If you wish to say that the Qur"an needs to be explained you are then saying that this part of the Qur"an is incorrect, making the Qur"an fallible."
Debate Round No. 2
Valtin

Con

"It says "setting in a muddy spring", keyword is "in", and remember that this is at the "setting-place" of the sun."

I believe I have refuted this since the verse clearly talks about how the Sun appeared to Dhul-Qarnyen, It is in clear English, he found the sun like that, that is how it appeared to him:
Qur'an 18:86 "Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring,"


"That makes it even more wrong then. A meteor does not come from a star. You might say this is in the "Lowest heaven", but we do know what a meteor and what a star is."

Stars in the lowest heaven do that, but we have not discovered as far as the first heaven(lowest one), we do not know, we cannot prove nor disprove as I said we have not observed it yet.

"How come you say a more accurate translation? Are you saying that the Qur"an is not easy to understand that certain translations would be wrong?"

You know that the Qur'an is in Arabic, not in English, I hope you know that, because the Arabic is the Qur'an, the English is just a translation, the Arabic is directly from God and God's word, there is a difference sir, please learn that Arabic is the Qur'an and the English(or any other language) is a translation.

""Tafsir al Jalalayn"

You are saying that I need a Tafsir? Are you saying that the Qur"an is not easy to understand?"

For you yes, unless you know fluent Arabic like me then surely you will, God willing.

"Only 7? Lets take a look at the universe, shall we?
"As of April 2014, the Habitable Exoplanets Catalog lists 21 planets that have the best chance for life beyond our solar system" (http://www.space.com......)
I think that 21 is more than 7."

As soon as I opened the website I have seen this: "Not all of these planets are confirmed, and there's still a lot to learn about their environments." and it says 10 planets not 21, also for the 9th planet listed it says:
"This planet is a controversial find. It was discovered in 2010, but there has been difficulty in getting it confirmed."
And for the 5th:
"Researchers are hoping to one day figure out if there is water on its surface."

They do not even if there is water, which clearly cuts it out of the picture.

and for the 4th:
"Depending on its atmosphere, Tau Ceti e could be a mildly hot planet suitable for simple life, or a scorching world like Venus."

1)These planets have not been confirmed.
2)One of them probably does not have water.
3)One of them is like Venus(Probably).

This source is not valid as it contains many doubts.


Six days:

Alright what if it is 6 days, it does not measure the day as 24 hour period, unlike the Bible, the Qur'an does not make mention of creation of light, day,night,etc, which clearly eliminates the 24 hour period or 6000 years old earth myth.



Abiogenesis:

While the Qur'an mentions embryology I think you have misunderstood and mixed up the Bible and the Qur'an.
Qur'an 23:12-14 And certainly did We create man from an extract of clay. Then We placed him as a sperm-drop in a firm lodging. Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah , the best of creators."


Lizard:

"From YOUR own source:
1. "In apomictic parthenogenesis, the offspring are clones of the mother and hence are usually (except for aphids) female. In the case of aphids, parthenogenetically produced males and females are clones of their mother except that the males lack one of the X chromosomes (XO)."
2. "In polyploid obligate parthenogens like the whiptail lizard, all the offspring are female."

Let us read the verse one more time: "And of everything We have created pairs" Immediately, we note that there is no mention in the verse of male and female, but of 'pairs'. Moreover, the word 'everything' clearly indicates that God is speaking about everything in the universe and not just species of plants. So what is this universal arrangement by which everything is created in pairs? Here we explore the science of Quantum Mechanics. When we study Quantum Particle Properties, we find that for every elementary particle in the universes there is a special partner called its anti-particle that has the same mass but the opposite electric charge. This is what is called Anti-Matter. Basically, if a particle and its own anti-particle collide, they cancel one another out. They destroy one another and turn into a flash of pure energy which can manifest itself as light. For many years this theory remained a theoretical hypothesis, since no anti-matter was ever produced in a lab. However, very recently, a Swiss-based scientist confirmed that anti-matter has been manufactured in tiny amounts! The scientists at the European Particle Physics Laboratory (CERN), on the Franco-Swiss border, have now set up the world's first anti-matter factory. One of them, Professor Frank Close, told the annual science festival in Wales: "Nine atoms of anti-hydrogen were produced just over a year ago. Now, the new factory will produce them at a rate of more than 2,000 atoms per hour" Close said. When matter meets anti-matter, they annihilate each other in a flash. The scientific consensus is that, when the universe was created, matter and anti-matter emerged equally from the Big Bang. So once again we witness the Quran's amazing scientific content. The subject of 51:49 and which the scholars failed to interpret correctly, is in fact yet another very accurate piece of knowledge. This verse as seen address's the theory of Quantum Particle Properties, and not the type of 'Reproduction System' (male/female) of one species of plants or another.[1]

I think I have cleared it up as you think it is speaking about Female and Male.

"This is saying that ONLY the power of Allah holds them up. When we look at how a bird can fly we see that the bird flies by using its wings to create a pressure difference above and below, thus pushing them up. This means that even if Allah did exist and created the ability for a bird to do this that Allah is not the only thing "holding" them up, the air pressure difference is doing it. We also cannot say that Allah designed the bird to be able to do this either as I have already explained evolution above."

But the underlined is the power of Allah holding up the bird, this is the power of Allah(not all of it of course not even a as small as an hydrogen atom, since Allah is Almighty).


"Qur"an- 41:10 "He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS"
So, 8 days or 6 days? BTW, didn"t you also say earlier that it does not say days but periods? Why does it say days here?
ALSO, by the way, this puts heaven as being made last while you said in the "Heaven or Earth first" part that he made Earth, made the Heavens, then made the features. Another contradiction?"

41:9 "Say, "Do you indeed disbelieve in He who created the earth in two days and attribute to Him equals? That is the Lord of the worlds."

Earth is 2 days, keep up with me alright.

41:10 "And He placed on the earth firmly set mountains over its surface, and He blessed it and determined therein its [creatures'] sustenance in four days without distinction - for [the information] of those who ask."

Everything was placed in 2 days period, Earth created in 2 days, Allah placed everything in the Earth in 2 days, 2+2=4, 4 days now, keep up.

41:12 "And He completed them as seven heavens within two days and inspired in each heaven its command. And We adorned the nearest heaven with lamps and as protection. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing."

Now it is 6 days, since the seven heavens is 2 days, so 4+2=6, six days, keep it to the context.

I have said it is days as I explained above, since you think that Qur'an has the same errors as the Bible, unfortunately it doesn't.

In 51:56 "And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me."
Thaqalan(underlined) were created for worship, this answers the question of 'Why are we here?'.

In 35:15 Allah clearly states he created us for worship, even if you do not worship, It does not affect God.
"O mankind, you are those in need of Allah , while Allah is the Free of need, the Praiseworthy."

Clearly Allah allows us to believe and disbelief as he has given us free will:
18:29 "And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."


Same is said for the second supposed contradicitions, clearly the verse above shows existance of free-will.

Thank you again.

[1]http://www.quran-islam.org...(P1233).html
SNP1

Pro

"Stars in the lowest heaven do that, but we have not discovered as far as the first heaven(lowest one), we do not know, we cannot prove nor disprove as I said we have not observed it yet."

Then it is not a star. There is a clear understanding of what a star is, and what is being described is not a star.

"You know that the Qur'an is in Arabic, not in English, I hope you know that, because the Arabic is the Qur'an, the English is just a translation,"

Okay, but my question is if it is a book that is easy to understand or not. If it is easy to understand that means that it would also be able to be translated pretty easily.

"The Arabic is directly from God and God's word"

That is off topic from this debate.

"For you yes, unless you know fluent Arabic like me then surely you will"

Are you saying that the original Arabic is not that easy to understand so translating it would be ineffective?

"As soon as I opened the website I have seen this: "Not all of these planets are confirmed, and there's still a lot to learn about their environments.""

Not all are confirmed, correct, but they are already enough to be put on the list.

"and it says 10 planets not 21"

Shows that you did not read it that carefully.
I quote from it, "As of April 2014, the Habitable Exoplanets Catalog lists 21 planets that have the best chance for life beyond our solar system."
That is the FIRST sentence in the introduction. The last sentence says, "Here's a list of 10 of the planets we know of that are most likely to host alien life, according to the University of Puerto Rico at Arecibo."
They only listed 10, but there are a total of 21.

"the 9th planet listed it says:
"This planet is a controversial find. It was discovered in 2010, but there has been difficulty in getting it confirmed.""

Okay, so they have difficulty with one of the 10 listed out of the 21.
"They do not even if there is water, which clearly cuts it out of the picture."

Does it? Okay, 2 out of the list of 10 from the total of 21.

"and for the 4th:
"Depending on its atmosphere, Tau Ceti e could be a mildly hot planet suitable for simple life, or a scorching world like Venus.""

And it could be Earth-like, it is still being looked into. That still only takes off 3 planets from a list of 10 out of all 21. 18 total.

"1)These planets have not been confirmed."

Really? Not all have, but that is because our current technology isn"t the greatest. You cannot say all are not confirmed.

"2)One of them probably does not have water."

Where do you find "probable does not"?

"3)One of them is like Venus(Probably)."

Again, where do you get probably? It is a 50/50 chance.

"This source is not valid as it contains many doubts."

It is because it is being HONEST. Would you rather I find a source that does not talk about the doubts?

"Alright what if it is 6 days, it does not measure the day as 24 hour period, unlike the Bible, the Qur'an does not make mention of creation of light, day,night,etc, which clearly eliminates the 24 hour period or 6000 years old earth myth."

Definition of a day, "Each of the twenty-four-hour periods, reckoned from one midnight to the next, into which a week, month, or year is divided, and corresponding to a rotation of the earth on its axis"
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com...
Why refer to it as a day if it was not an actual day?

"While the Qur'an mentions embryology I think you have misunderstood and mixed up the Bible and the Qur'an."

Qur"an 7:189 "We created man from sounding clay, from mud molded into shape;"
Again, implying a form of creationsim. This also ignores the evidence for evolution.

"Lizard""

You obviously have read the quotes out of context.
"In apomictic parthenogenesis, the offspring are clones of the mother and hence are usually (except for aphids) female. IN THE CASE OF APHIDS, parthenogenetically produced males and females are clones of their mother except that the males lack one of the X chromosomes (XO)."
So, no, it is NOT a pair in all animals.

"we find that for every elementary particle in the universes there is a special partner called its anti-particle that has the same mass but the opposite electric charge. This is what is called Anti-Matter."

Really? There is an anti-Higgs Boson? Yes, there are SOME subatomic particles that have opposites, but not all.

"But the underlined is the power of Allah holding up the bird, this is the power of Allah(not all of it of course not even a as small as an hydrogen atom, since Allah is Almighty)."

How is it? Science explains it perfectly WITHOUT Allah, so how is it Allah"s power?

"Everything was placed in 2 days period, Earth created in 2 days, Allah placed everything in the Earth in 2 days, 2+2=4, 4 days now, keep up."

But that is not what it says. It says it took 2 days to create the Earth and 4 days to place everything in the Earth. That is 6 days. Another 2 to create the heavens, that is 8 days total.
Let"s look at the verse again:
41:10 "And He placed on the earth firmly set mountains over its surface, and He blessed it and determined therein its [creatures'] sustenance IN FOUR DAYS without distinction - for [the information] of those who ask."
The four days is referring to the earlier part of this sentence, which does not include the 2 days that it took to make the Earth. The four days is referring to the mountains placed on the surface and the creatures, not the original 2 days.

"I have said it is days as I explained above, since you think that Qur'an has the same errors as the Bible, unfortunately it doesn't."

I am not even thinking about the Bible while talking about this. I have pointed out the errors by quoting the Qur"an.

"Clearly Allah allows us to believe and disbelief as he has given us free will:"

Which makes it ANOTHER contradiction.
Qur"an 10:100 "No soul can believe except by the will of Allah"
Saying that we CANNOT believe unless Allah wants us to.
18:29 "And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."
Saying that we can choose. What is it? Do we have the free will to believe or not? The Qur"an has TWO different takes on it.

"Same is said for the second supposed contradicitions, clearly the verse above shows existance of free-will."
Qur"an 35:8 "Allah leaves stray whom He wills and guides whom He wills"

Also, where does evil come from?
Qur"an 38:41 "And remember Our servant Job, when he called to his Lord, "Indeed, Satan has touched me with hardship and torment.""
From Satan?
Qur"an 4:79 "What comes to you of good is from Allah , but what comes to you of evil, [O man], is from yourself. And We have sent you, [O Muhammad], to the people as a messenger, and sufficient is Allah as Witness."
From ourselves?
Qur"an 4:78 "Wherever you may be, death will overtake you, even if you should be within towers of lofty construction. But if good comes to them, they say, "This is from Allah "; and if evil befalls them, they say, "This is from you." Say, "All [things] are from Allah ." So what is [the matter] with those people that they can hardly understand any statement?"
Or is it from Allah?
Are all things from Allah like 4:78 says? Is evil from man as 4:79 says? Is it from Satan as said in 38:41?

As you can see, there are many contradictions. I will also repost the last part of my first round.

"There are many inconsistencies within the Qur"an, both with the external and with the internal. These inconsistencies show that the Qur"an is mistaken, it is fallible.

If you still claim it is not fallible, do you think that you need someone to explain the Qur"an?

Qur"an 54:17 "And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?"

If you wish to say that the Qur"an needs to be explained you are then saying that this part of the Qur"an is incorrect, making the Qur"an fallible."
Debate Round No. 3
Valtin

Con

Please do not show any new 'Contradictions' because I cannot refute them, because this is my last rebuttal.



"Then it is not a star. There is a clear understanding of what a star is, and what is being described is not a star."

Have you observed all of the Stars of the universe? you cannot say that, because we have not observed the stars near the Lowest Heaven.


"Okay, but my question is if it is a book that is easy to understand or not. If it is easy to understand that means that it would also be able to be translated pretty easily."

You cannot translate word for word, someone can say 1 word in Arabic to make a whole sentence in English, English is not that strong of a language, Arabic is a very discpreptive language, there is a difference, ranting on how the Arabic language is better and more disprective than English is off-topic, translating is very much different because you will not get the full meaning, word for word.


"Are you saying that the original Arabic is not that easy to understand so translating it would be ineffective?"

Nope, you won't get the meaning from the full translation.


Exoplanet Issue:

I apologize because I have not read the verse in Arabic carefully as it says:

65:12 "It is Allah who has created seven heavens and of the earth, the like of them."

The verse actually says that their are 7 earths, in the universe, scholar interpretation agree with me:
"God it is Who created seven heavens, and of earth the like thereof, that is to say, seven earths."[1]
"(and of the earth the like thereof.) means, He created seven earths."[2]
So it is 7 earths not planets similar to earth


"Definition of a day, "Each of the twenty-four-hour periods, reckoned from one midnight to the next, into which a week, month, or year is divided, and corresponding to a rotation of the earth on its axis"
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com......
Why refer to it as a day if it was not an actual day?"

"Islam does not have a set position on the actual age of the Earth, leaving such knowledge to God alone. The Qur'an does describe the creation of the universe in "six days," but then in other passages indicates that a "day" to us is different than a "day" in God's reckoning of time. (How is a "day" counted anyway, before the sun and earth even existed as they do now?) Basically there is a description of different "phases" that creation went through. Nobody knows the precise period of time and I personally don't find anything wrong with scientific theories about it." [3]

Further: "The word is "yawm" and it can mean day or a period of time. You pretty much tell through context. i.e. Yawm al-Qiyama is a "day" but not as in revolution of the earth." [3]

Rational wiki comments:

"Islam, as per Quran says that the Earth was created in 6 days by Allah,[7] and every day of Allah was 1000 years.[8] Many people wrongly assume that Islam refers to the same story as Christianity does, that earth is 6000 years old. However, Muslims do not believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old, they believe that it was created in that amount of time. Islam does not specify how long it has been since the creation of the Earth, therefore the age of the Earth is left ambiguous." [4]

For the issue of Abiogenesis I have provided a verse which Pro ignored:
Qur'an 23:12-14 And certainly did We create man from an extract of clay. Then We placed him as a sperm-drop in a firm lodging. Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah , the best of creators."

"Really? There is an anti-Higgs Boson? Yes, there are SOME subatomic particles that have opposites, but not all."

"Since the Higgs boson has spin 0 and zero charge (and zero color...i.e. quark "charge") it would be its own antiparticle. You have to remember that particle antiparticle pairs have to conserve quantum numbers such as charge, color, baryon number, and spin. Since the Higgs boson has spin zero, charge zero, color charge 0, and zero baryon number (it's not made up of three quarks), it adds to a quantum number of zero...therefore adding another Higgs boson would still add up to zero and make for a possible annihilation--thus the Higgs boson is its own antiparticle (if such a thing can be said to exist). " [5]

"How is it? Science explains it perfectly WITHOUT Allah, so how is it Allah"s power?"
Since Allah created us, given us brains and a mind, with his power, we discovered how Birds fly, it is Allah's power if you do a little thinking.


Does Allah need man or man needs him, I have answered that in the previous round(s).

Heavens & Earth 8 days or 6:
Let us see verses 41:9-12:
(9)Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds. (10) He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance). (11) Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience.(12)So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge"

Earth created in 2 days, then 4 days for everything on earth, moreover(simultaneously) Heavens were created in 2 days,
since the Heavens were created at the same time as the Earth, it is at the same time, 6 days in total, because the creation of the heavens and the Earth were at the same time.




I think it has been explained clearer here.


Free-will 'Contradicition':
In 10:100 it says none will accept except by the permission of God, but it clearly Allah says that he has given us free will with his permission, with his permission we choose to believe/disbelief.


"Are all things from Allah like 4:78 says? Is evil from man as 4:79 says? Is it from Satan as said in 38:41?"
If you think just a little bit, you'd understand everything is from Allah, evil in man is from Allah, and same for Satan, everything good or evil is from Allah, It just take little thinking and reading to understand.

Please do not post any more 'contradictions' as I cannot answer them because there are no rounds for me.


[1]http://www.altafsir.com...;
[2]http://www.qtafsir.com...;
[3]http://www.ummah.com...
[4]http://rationalwiki.org...;
[5]https://au.answers.yahoo.com...;
[6]http://www.answering-christianity.com...;
SNP1

Pro

Sorry for sloppy format,used every character.

"Have you observed all of the Stars of the universe"

I haven"t seen every Eagle on the Earth,but I still know all Eagles have feathers and wings.We do not need to observe every star in the universe to know what a star is.A star is a ball of Hydrogen and Helium going through nuclear fusion.When a star is massive enough it will even have nuclear fusion to create the heavier elements.What the Qur"an proposes to exist is not a star
http://www.universetoday.com...
Also,"Clearly it says that a meteor of fire detaches itself from the star,not the stars as a missle"A meteor is not made of fire either.A meteor is a part of an asteroid or comet that enters into Earth"s atmosphere
http://www.telegraph.co.uk...
An asteroid is a rocky-metallic objects.This is not fire
http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu...-
Comets are chunks of rock and ice that are detached from larger chunks found in the Oort cloud.When they get closer to the sun the ice melts and becomes a gaseous tail.This is not fire.
http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu...
A problem with saying that the meteor is of fire is that it means that the meteor would have to have a good source of oxygen in order to keep the fire going.If the meteor is to last it also has to be able to get more oxygen so it does not run out.
This is one piece of evidence that the Qur"an is fallible.

"The verse actually says that their are7earths..

This would make it harder to argue as there is only1Earth,if referring to this planet.Earth is an identity of this planet,even if there was a planet that was exactly likeEarth it would not be Earth.SinceEarth is an identity of this planet it limits the amount ofEarths to one.It"s like saying there are7of the same person.Yes,there could be a potential possibility of7people with the same genes,but that does not make them the same person.ThisEarth is theEarth,even if we find another planet that is the same and even namedEarth it will still be as different from thisEarth than theEarth-like planets that are out there.
This is another piece of evidence that the Qur"an is fallible.The Qur"an states that there are7Earths when that is not true.TheEarth is a personal identity of this planet,much like your name is a personal identity of your own self.

"Further: "The word is "yawm" and...""
Didn"t we already get through this?How in one part it says"period"but others it says"days"?Pretty sure we did,you even responded by saying,"Alright what if it is 6 days"after I pointed this out.

"41:10 "And He placed on the earth firmly set mountains over its surface, and He blessed it and determined therein its [creatures'] sustenance in four days without distinction - for [the information] of those who ask.""

This is the quote thatYOUbrought up.
Okay,so the6days,the1000years for each day,6000years to create theEarth.
Well,we still need to bring up the age of theEarth.TheEarth is4.54billion years old.
http://www.space.com...
Now,life appeared onEarth3.6billion years ago.
http://www.science20.com...
4.54billion-3.6billion=.94billion years.
Now,your quote says that theEarth and life arose in6days,where theQur"an says that one day to Allah is like1000years,so6000 years.
The actual amount of time it took forLIFEto form was.94billion years old,but how long did it take for theEarth to form?Well,we can tackle it as ex nihilo or ex materia.
Ex nihilo would put it as the time theBigBang to form until it formed.
TheUniverse is13.8billion years old.
http://www.space.com...
This means that it would have taken theEarth9.26billion years to form,which means that the time period that it mentions it took forEarth to form and life to be created is10.2billion years,not 6000.
Ex materia would put the starting time at the formation of our solar system, or theSun"s formation.This was4.6billion years ago.
http://curiosity.discovery.com...
This means that it would have takeEarth and the life on it would be1Billion,still a lot more than the6000years of theQur"an.
This is another piece of clear evidence that theQur"an is fallible.TheQur"an puts theEarth"s formation and the start of life at6000years,but that isFARfrom accurate.

"For the issue of Abiogenesis.."

I ignored it because of what you said,"While theQur'an mentions embryology I think you have misunderstood and mixed up the Bible and the Qur'an."
Embryology and abiogenesis are two different things.
"Qur'an 23:12-14"
First,it says that if createdHIMas a sperm-drop.This is automatically wrong because the sperm actually determines the gender of the child,it could be anXor aYchromosome in the sperm.
http://www.sciencedaily.com...
It also says that the flesh was turned into bones.This is also a mistake.What happens is that there is a formation ofMesenchyme,which in turn can become the tissues of"the lymphatic and circulatory systems,as well as connective tissues throughout the body,such as bone and cartilage."
http://en.wikipedia.org...
If it is talking about abiogenesis then it is far off (http://www.debate.org...). Even if it talking about embryology it is still far from accurate.
This is another piece of evidence that theQur"an is indeed fallible.It talks about the creation of life by talking more about an embryological formation of life,which is also far from how the fetus forms.

""Since theHiggs boson has...""

You don"tt think I would look at your source?Looking at what site your sourced makes it extremely doubtable.Yahoo answers isNOTa reliable source.
The person that you even quoted did not even use his source"s information.
1."If it is theHiggs it will not have an antiparticle"
2."Only fermions,which are subdivided into quarks and leptons,have antiparticles"
3."Really fermions are the things where we have this idea of a particle and antiparticle pair,"saysTaylor,"antiparticles at the fundamental level are fermions with the opposite charge."
4."Some people say bosons that have no electrical charge,such as the photon,Higgs and Z boson,are their own antiparticle.But it is a mistake to refer to them this way"
No,the Higgs has no antiparticle.No,the Higgs is not its own antiparticle.
http://www.abc.net.au...
This is probably the easiest to see example of theQur"an being fallible.TheQur"an says that everything was made in pairs,but this is far from the truth.If we go down to theQuantumLevel we have bosons,which are not in pairs and are not pairs with themselves.

"Since Allah created us.."

We are testing if theQur"an is fallible or not,and the best way to do this is to tackle it as if it were any other book.This means that when testing if theQur"an is fallible or not we cannot say that what is in theQur"an is true,we have to say that what we have discovered to be true is true.This means that since there is no evidence thatAllah is real,and no reason whyAllah would have to exist,that by theNull Hypothesis(https://www.youtube.com...)we tackle this as ifAllah does not exist.
My opponent then decided to claim thatAllah did this and that,but had no evidence for his claims.
This is another example of theQur"an being fallible.My opponent tried to refute this point but had no supporting evidence for this.

"Earth created in2days,then4days for everything on earth,moreover(simultaneously)Heavens were created in2days..."

So,you start by saying that the4days include the initial2for the creation ofEarth,and now you are saying that it includes the2for the creation of theHeavens?
I also cannot find any interpretation online that says"Moreover",as you included in your quotation of theQur"an.Instead,I find the word "Then".
http://quran.com...
http://corpus.quran.com...
This means it wasTWOdays to create theEarth.
Followed byFOURdays to fill theEarth with mountains and life,then bless it.
Ending with anotherTWOdays to create theHeavens.
This is a clear contradiction in theQur"an,showing that theQur"an is fallible.My opponent put up a good fight for this part,but in the end the truth was brought forth.This part of theQur"an puts the creation at8days,and another part puts it at6days.A contradiction automatically means that at least1of them is wrong,meaning that theQur"an is indeed fallible.

"Free-will 'Contradicition..."

Lets plook at the different versions (http://corpus.quran.com...):
Every single one is stating that the only way a person can believe is ifAllah lets them.It also says that he will punish those that do not believe.It does not indicate free will at all,it simply is stating that belief and disbelief is up toAllah.
This is yet another contradiction in theQur"an,and a contradiction automatically means fallible.TheQur"an both says thatAllah decides if you believe or not and also says that the individual decides.This contradiction is another sign of theQur"an being fallible.

"If you think just a little bit,you'd understand everything is fromAllah..."

Lets look at theQur"an again.
http://quran.com...
http://quran.com...
This is directly from theQu"ran,it says all things are fromAllah and then instantly says that evil is from the individual.This is a clear contradiction in theQur"an.A contradiction automatically means fallible, so this is another example of theQur"an being fallible.

As you can see,theQur"an is very fallible.There are many more examples that I could bring up,but I am in the final round so I shall not do so.I have pointed out both internal and external inconsistencies of theQur"an,successfully showing that theQur"an is indeed fallible.VotePro
Debate Round No. 4
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by SNP1 2 years ago
SNP1
And Sagey decided that any scientific errors would not count against you, though it would make the Qur'an fallible, and voted only sources to you. Can I say that is biased because the only source he complemented was your video while I had many sources that were reliable? When our starting and ending position in a debate is unchanged it makes it hard to see what is biased voting or not, same with anyone that doesn't have an opinion change (that doesn't have a tied opinion), but that does not mean you can call bias on every point.
Posted by Valtin 2 years ago
Valtin
The first vote:
", but I lost him when he re-translated a section of the Qur'an to mean the moon is "reflected light." That translation is simply not accurate, and no source was provided for the rather sudden new meaning of a very old verse."

I have clearly said why did a re-translated the verse:
"More accurate translation is "And made the moon therein a [reflected] light and made the sun a burning lamp?"
because the word used for 'burning lamp' is 'Siraj', Siraj means a source of light, clearly the Qur'an says that the Moon has light and the Sun is the source of light."

I could have elaborated more on the issue of the days of heaven and etc, well it was indeed a good exchange!
Posted by SNP1 2 years ago
SNP1
Can you point out where the voting bias is? Or are you biased on your view so that when people vote against your view you think there must be bias?
Posted by Valtin 2 years ago
Valtin
@Mussab No $hit
Posted by Mussab 2 years ago
Mussab
Oh my God the voting bias
Posted by BradK 2 years ago
BradK
I'm not going to vote on the debate, because I've spent way too long myself, personally, investigating what muslims say about the quran and proving it all wrong. I know the quran is fallible, just like the bible, or any books with ancient mythology in them.

Unless Con has some sort of really interesting hook to draw me into the debate, I'm not going to go through the debate, just because I've seen this topic done to death.
Posted by Valtin 2 years ago
Valtin
I want to say to SNP1 that I believe in the Big bang(caused by God as said in the Qur'an) and believe that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old and the Universe 13B+ years old.
Posted by SNP1 2 years ago
SNP1
"Can't you ever understand? The translators are not Gods. They translate it word by word so that the same structure is preserved."

Word by word or word for word?

"Just because it's easy to understand in Arabic doesn't mean it's easy to translate. you're wrong."

Making a claim, where is the evidence?

"And don't expect to understand something when you haven't read it in the original language."

I bet you think you understand the Bible when you debate it, but have you read it in the original language?

"He isn't saying that "Arabic is hard to understand". You put words he didn't say in his mouth right there."

When did I put words in his mouth? I was always asking a question when I referred to that.

"He said that if you read it in Arabic. It's easier to understand (because English is such a narrow language and someone would have to write an essay to explain something while an Arab can make it into a small paragraph or a sentence)"

I have a question. Are you debating this? Is the debate over with? Why do you think you can just comment about it like this? It is called being rude to do so. Besides, easy to understand translates directly into easy to explain, even in another language. I have been studying history and was able to talk to an ex-muslim before. He even pointed out that the Qur'an is fallible, and he finds in laughably so. The argument of it having to be in Arabic is a simple cop out, a way to attempt to isolate your beliefs from external criticism.
Posted by Mussab 2 years ago
Mussab
@Pro
Can't you ever understand? The translators are not Gods. They translate it word by word so that the same structure is preserved.
Just because it's easy to understand in Arabic doesn't mean it's easy to translate. you're wrong. And don't expect to understand something when you haven't read it in the original language. He isn't saying that "Arabic is hard to understand". You put words he didn't say in his mouth right there. He said that if you read it in Arabic. It's easier to understand (because English is such a narrow language and someone would have to write an essay to explain something while an Arab can make it into a small paragraph or a sentence)
Posted by ajawed3333 2 years ago
ajawed3333
By Allah
the quran cant fall
WE have no right to kill people its just that Allah said that there will be a punisment on the day of judge ment
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by creationtruth 2 years ago
creationtruth
ValtinSNP1Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Overall this was a good exchange. Some of the first contradictions can be dismissed as issues of perspective (from one's viewpoint the Sun indeed can set). I got very confused with the creation-days issue. The Qur'an does seem to contradict here. It also struck me as a reconstruction of Genesis, but the Qur'an came much later. Unlike the Qur'an the Bible is very clear about how many days God took to create all things (Exodus 20:11). I think the strongest contradiction was the one concerning free will. This was a clear contradiction. Does man determine his destiny, or does God? If it is God, then we cannot say He is good since He sends people to hell regardless of their will. The God of the Bible makes it very clear that we all have a choice to believe in Him and live, or reject Him and die, both of which have eternal consequences.
Vote Placed by demonlord343 2 years ago
demonlord343
ValtinSNP1Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: The last round was the final determinant for a few things. The spelling and grammar was...horrible for SNP1. Yes, I am aware that every character is used. That doesn't mean it was correct. It hurt my head to try and read it. However, SNP1's arguments and rebuttals really shined in the last round, winning the arguments. The sources are given to SNP1, due to the amount, and their validity. Conduct is an overall tie. No rules were broken, no one forfeited, etc. Overall, really good debate!
Vote Placed by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
ValtinSNP1Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: I could not decide on fallibility, because from my perspective the Qu'ran cannot really be taken as being about science, it is a Theological text concerning Tradition rather than trying to be an accurate science text. Pro made many valid points about misconceptions of reality in the Qu'ran, though as Con pointed out, at the time the Qu'ran was written, such knowledge was not accessible, so they had nothing but their own perceptions to guide them, so scientific knowledge would obviously be wrong, which is not the fault of the writers, as what they perceived was to their own eyes true and there was no knowledge to tell them otherwise. By current standards the Qu'ran is indeed wrong thus fallible scientifically, but it is a theological (metaphorical) text, not a scientific text to be taken literally so infallible to it's purpose of teaching Islam so I'm in the middle. All I can say is I liked Con's video evidence, which gave good support.
Vote Placed by Ameliamk1 2 years ago
Ameliamk1
ValtinSNP1Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: I apologize to Con, but I lost him when he re-translated a section of the Qur'an to mean the moon is "reflected light." That translation is simply not accurate, and no source was provided for the rather sudden new meaning of a very old verse. Additionally, Pro very perceptively points out that "capable of making mistakes" can include obscurity in language, discrepancies that certainly plague the Qur'an. Well done by both, but ultimately Pro provided stronger points, which Con was unable to repudiate.