The Instigator
Dave34
Pro (for)
Losing
4 Points
The Contender
vardas0antras
Con (against)
Winning
10 Points

Quran vs. Bible-which is God's word.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/25/2010 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,322 times Debate No: 14140
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (12)
Votes (3)

 

Dave34

Pro

There was a debate I entitled the same as the above, however, the user never seemed to respond, so this is a second to anyone who wants to debate me on which is God's word.

This is not a Sunni vs. Shia debate, I have no interest in debating a shia Muslim. Rather, this is to anyone who thinks the Bible is the unaltered and direct word of God. To anyone wishing to debate this topic, please have your facts straight and don't be a troll. Know your stuff before you debate it.

Points that I will debate on considering why the Bible is not God's word are: Bible errancy, Jesus Christ being God, and a few anonymous points which i will save for the debate. Good luck and may God bless you.
vardas0antras

Con

O Observations

o In this debate there's no other religion i.e. we will not include other religious books. Secondly we will assume that either Yahweh is real or Allah, there are no alternatives.

o We both have equal burden of proof.

O Arguments

o The Bible is the best selling book of all time.
http://home.comcast.net...

o My further arguments will be provided via my opponents response.
Debate Round No. 1
Dave34

Pro

OK, well my arguments are based from the Quran and the Bible, so we have to use Holy books. My intent is to show Bible errany and fallibility and the Quran's truth with no infallibility. This is not an intelligent design verses evolution/no God argument. We are debating which book is actually God's word.
vardas0antras

Con

O Observations
o "OK, well my arguments are based from the Quran and the Bible, so we have to use Holy books."
=/=
"In this debate there's no other religion i.e. we will not include other religious books"
o "We are debating which book is actually God's word." When did I oppose this ?

O Second Argument

o Koran contradictions
1.
The food for the people in Hell will be only "Dhari" [Sura 88:6], or only foul pus from the washing of wounds [S. 69:36], or will they also get to eat from the tree of Zaqqum [S. 37:66]? Together, these verses constitute three contradictions.
2.
The video.
Debate Round No. 2
Dave34

Pro

Concerning the food for people in hell, how is this a contradiction? Surah 88:6﴾They shall have no food except bitter dry thorns)Yusuf Ali's commentary:

"The root-meaning implies again the idea of humiliation. It is a plant, bitter and thorny, loathsome in smell and appearance, which will neither give fattening nourishment to the body nor in any way satisfy the burning pangs of hunger,-a fit plant for Hell, like Zaqqum."

Nowhere in this verse, may I add, does it say "foul pus", it only says "washing of wounds."(referring to Surah 69:36-or hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds.")
And it's really taken out of context when people actually think that people in hell ACTUALLY eat these things. It is rather symbolic of the food that will be given; the product of their wrongdoings is this foul pus per say. Quote-"the term "only food" is symbolic to the pain and anguish they will suffer, not the food that they will literally eat and chew. Quote'"When it says nor hath he any food, this doesn't refer to the food that you chew and digest literally, this refers to the product of denial and humiliation of all the evil deeds which people did in the world" http://islamic-replies.ucoz.com...

Surah Waqiah 56:52:
"Ye will surely taste of the Tree of Zaqqum."
Quote-(In this verse, it does NOT say that they will ONLY eat Zaqqum. The term "only" doesn't exist in this verse. Also, this will also be what the people in hell will eat literally and taste. In Surah Ghashiyah 88:6 & Surah Waqiah 56:52, it is not symbollic meaning they will literally eat food, In contrast, Surah Haqqah 69:36 is symbollic and will be the pain and torment (which they will be "fed") which is what the people in hell will suffer, so Surah Haqqah 69:36 is symbollic to the pain and humiliation the people in Hell will suffer, for all the evil deeds people did.) http://islamic-replies.ucoz.com...

This could also refer to the types of food given in different levels of hell depending upon the punishment. Surah 15:43-44 says "And surely hell is the promised place for them all--(44) For it has seven gates. For each gate is an appointed portion of them." "And verily, Hell Is the promised abode For them all! To it are seven Gates: For each of those Gates Is a (special) class (Of sinners) assigned. (The Noble Quran, 15:43-44)"

After that He spread out the earth" does not mean that Allah created the earth after the creation of the heavens, but it is a style of expression just like our saying after making mention of something: "Then this is noteworthy." The object is not to express the sequence of occurrence between the two things but to draw attention from the first to the second thing although both may exist together. Several instances of this style are found in the Qur'an, e.g. in Surah Al-Qalam it is said: "(He is) oppressive, and after that, ignoble by birth." etc etc from http://www.quranenglish.com...

Now sense I've answered these so called "contradictions", I would now like to point your attention to the Bible.
This is the world's oldest Bible explained to have MANY alterations in it compared today's Bible.

Also, take a look at a quote from a New Testament Scholar on the Bible. Mr Ehrman was a born again Bible-believing Evangelical until he read the original Greek texts and noticed some discrepancies.

The Bible we now use can't be the inerrant word of God, he says, since what we have are the sometimes mistaken words copied by fallible scribes.

"When people ask me if the Bible is the word of God I answer 'which Bible?'"

The Codex - and other early manuscripts - omit some mentions of ascension of Jesus into heaven, and key references to the Resurrection, which the Archbishop of Canterbury has said is essential for Christian belief.

Other differences concern how Jesus behaved. In one passage of the Codex, Jesus is said to be "angry" as he healed a leper, whereas the modern text records him as healing with "compassion". http://news.bbc.co.uk...

O----------Biblical Contradictions:::::

please read one of the many arguments here against Bible inerrancy. http://www.auburn.edu...

For example. the potter's field. Quote from the above website http://www.auburn.edu...
"An example of chronological difference involves John the Baptists' sending his disciples to ask whether Jesus really was the Christ. When did this event happen? According to Matthew, first Jesus calmed the storm (8:23-27); healed the Gadarene demonaics (8:28-34), the dead girl and sick woman (9:18-26); and sent out his twelve disciples (10:1-42). "After Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and preach in the towns of Galilee" (11:1, NIV). Following this we read that "John heard in prison what Christ was doing" and sent his disciples to ask Jesus whether he really was the Christ (11:2-6 NIV).
By contrast, in Luke's account John sent his disciples to Jesus (7:18-23) before Jesus calmed the storm (8:22-25); healed the Gadarene demonaic (8:26-39), the dead girl and sick woman (8:40-56); and sent out the twelve (9:1-6), adding that John had already been killed by the time of the sending of the twelve (9:7-9), a point corroborated by Mark (6:7-29). This type of chronological discrepancy is very common in the Gospel accounts, but is not problematic from the standpoint that it was not the writers' intent to convey an exact historical chronology."
-------------The above is a quote from the above website------------------------------

An example of a "which Bible is God's word out of so many versions", as Ahmed Deedat puts it, is comparing two copies of the RSV, one 1952 and the other a 1970's version, they'll read word for word the same, but they are VERSIONS. They also take out Luke 24:51 and Mark 16:19 where it mentions Jesus' ascension into heaven. It, as Ahmed Deedat says, is thrown out as a fabrication. The RSV, in the introduction, says the KJV has grave defects and therefore they revised it. They took out this verse, yet the KJV has these verses. (I TOOK THIS INFORMATION OUT OF A DEBATE WITH AHMED DEEDAT AND STANLEY SJOBERG)

I think I have made my point. The Quran is the direct and unchanged word of God while the Bible is a copy of a copy of a copy with the oldest copy in a translated language and has been altered.
vardas0antras

Con

O First argument
Not addressed .

O Second argument
1. Ill drop this one (lazy me).
2. Again I just realized that this is time consuming.
Hence, I will try to use more convenient arguments.

O Third argument
The bible fulfills prophecies.
The return of the Jews to Israel is the key to bible prophecy. Most other endtime prophecies depend on the Jewish people living in Israel and not scattered amongst the Gentiles. Israel has not existed as a nation since hundreds of years before the birth of Christ.
http://www.therefinersfire.org...

O Biblical Contradictions
When did John the baptist send his disciples ?
::Matthew 11:2-6 and Luke 7:18-23::

"The references in chapter 7 enabled John once again to acknowledge Jesus as one greater than he, while seeking confirmation that Jesus was the Messiah, then the disciples repeated this message and finally Jesus summarised all his miracles that would indeed prove him to be the Messiah. The message, implicitly and explicitly, that Jesus truly was the Messiah was repeated three times in a short passage. This is evidence of a literary masterpiece."

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com...

Plus this:
http://planetpreterist.com...

Citation yields citation :P
Debate Round No. 3
Dave34

Pro

Again, showing the Bible fulfills prophesy is irrelevant, because the Qu'ran does the same. My opponent has mentioned the Bible prophesy concerning Israel, well the Quran also mentions it in explicit detail, about the Jews becoming united again. (And after him We said to the Children of Israel, 'Dwell Ye in the promised land; and when the time of the promise of the Latter Days come, We shall bring you together out of various people.") (17:105)

The Quran also mentions Jesus as the messiah, and we as muslims don't deny that he was the prophesied messiah.
[3:46] When the angels said, 'O Mary, God gives thee glad tidings of a son through a Word from Him; his name shall be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, honoured in this world and in the next, and of those who are granted nearness to God;"

4:158] And for their saying, 'We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God;' whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it. "

So, in the Quran, like the Bible, we have prophesies and we do not deny that the Bible was the word of God. However, like the Quran says, and like Bible scholars say, the Bible has been changed and altered, affecting the message God really intended. And I challenge anyone reading and my opponent to post a scripture where Jesus said, " I am God."
You simply won't find it and I think we should follow what Jesus said about himself, that the one that sent him(Allah) was greater than him.
vardas0antras

Con

O Review
We both presented contradictions which were refuted ; we also presented other arguments but they too went nowhere. However, my opponent mentioned that "the Bible has been changed and altered!". I suppose that if the Bible is not corrupt then the Koran is untrue since that would mean Jesus is God and the claim that the previous messages are changed or corrupted is also erroneous.
As for Jesus being God, the crucifixion would not make sense if he was a mere man:
Eternal Sin - Temporal Man = Eternal Sin
Eternal Sin - Eternal God = Eternal God (God is omnipotent, also some believe he's a necessary being)

O The Corruption of the Bible
The burden of proof in this case is on my opponent since he asserts that God would let a holy book be corrupted.

"The last foundation for any doubt that the scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed."
Sir Frederic Kenyon, former director of the British Museum

1. We have 5,664 Greek manuscripts from which the original wording of New Testament books can be determined; there are also 18,000 other manuscripts in several other languages, e.g., Armenian, Latin Vulgate, Ethiopic, and more.
http://www.csntm.org...
http://carm.org...
http://www.religionfacts.com...
2. The Dead Sea Scrolls
http://www.guardian.co.uk...
http://www.centuryone.com...
Debate Round No. 4
Dave34

Pro

1. "presented contradictions which were refuted"-My opponent has not refuted any Biblical contradiction brought out. "The references in chapter 7 enabled John once again to acknowledge Jesus as one greater than he, while seeking confirmation that Jesus was the Messiah, then the disciples repeated this message and finally Jesus summarised all his miracles that would indeed prove him to be the Messiah. The message, implicitly and explicitly, that Jesus truly was the Messiah was repeated three times in a short passage. This is evidence of a literary masterpiece" as answer to When did John the baptist send his disciples ? This is clearly not an answer, as it does not answer the question above.

2. "I suppose that if the Bible is not corrupt then the Koran is untrue since that would mean Jesus is God and the claim that the previous messages are changed or corrupted is also erroneous." We are debating whether the Bible or Quran is the unchanged word of God, thus the statement above asserting the possibility of it being unchanged is it irrelevant. We are not debating what ifs, we are debating whether it is the unchanged word of God.

3. As for Jesus being God, we are not debating whether or not Jesus died on the cross or Jesus being God. But to answer this statement, I'll answer it with a question. Why would God, if he was Jesus, thirst? Why would God say to worship someone other than him, because Jesus obviously never said, " Worship me." Why did Jesus always point the disciples to worship the Father if he indeed was God? Why did Jesus never state, " I am God"? Why, if Jesus was God, pray to himself? Why, if Jesus was God, say that the one that sent him was greater than he? And why would God be thirsty? Why, if he indeed was God, need to keep his identity secret? And finally, why would God go back and forth and back and forth between being a man and being God?
We should listen to what Jesus said he was, a messenger from God sent to preach salvation unto the gentiles and his own people.

4. The burden of proof is not on me. God sent down a new word to his people and told them to preserve it. And Mohammed(PBUH) told his people how to do this. This was the final word from God and Mohammed was his last prophet. If you think you can match the Quran, try it. Even Allah challenges us to do that, and we simply can't.
vardas0antras

Con

Thank you for the debate - it was fun.

1. Yes I did. If you had checked the link I gave you, you would have known that John the Baptist sent his disciples more than once and the link is a discussion about why. It has some insightful comments even for a non-believer, I encourage the readers and my opponent to read or at least skim what is written there.

2."We are not debating what ifs, we are debating whether it is the unchanged word of God." However, if the Bible is unchanged then the Koran is by default incorrect as I have shown. Which would mean that the Bible is Gods word.

3."we are not debating whether or not Jesus died on the cross or Jesus being God. " Indeed, I was making an irrelevant point though at this moment you're not doing anything different.

4." The burden of proof is not on me." We both have an equal burden of proof.
"God sent down a new word to his people and told them to preserve it. And Mohammed(PBUH) told his people how to do this. This was the final word from God and Mohammed was his last prophet. If you think you can match the Quran, try it. Even Allah challenges us to do that, and we simply can't."
This is mere preaching - nothing more needs to be added.

Anyhow, I provided arguments for why the Bible is not corrupt or changed or altered and this was not even mentioned. By default as we both have discussed the Koran is incorrect even if it is too uncorrupted. For this reason I urge a Con vote and please do comment about how I or my opponent could improve and why you voted the way you did.

Thank you
Cheerio and
A HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL !!!
Debate Round No. 5
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Artur 3 years ago
Artur
as a non muslim and a non-believer in christianity, and as a person who has read the both, I would want to say:

stop comparing quran vs bible, why do you insult the quran? bible doesnot deserve to be compared to quran, bible needs to be compared with Kamasutra and e.t.c quran is far better than the bible.

bible is a book of contradictions, absurdities, pornography and says: all scripture is profitable for doctrine, reprrof, correction and instruction into righteousness, then I ask christian males:

can raping your daughter before your death be a doctrine or rightesousness?

or christian girls:

being raped by your father, can it be your doctrine?

do not compare the quran vs bible, even though I am not muslim, I respect quran while I see bible as one of the most dangerous books ever written.
Posted by vardas0antras 5 years ago
vardas0antras
People please vote, Muslims are attacking me LOL :D
Posted by vardas0antras 5 years ago
vardas0antras
"I would say neither are. They are the word of men who claim to have heard god's word"
Perhaps, but in this debate there are only two possibilities so please vote
Posted by rogue 5 years ago
rogue
I would say neither are. They are the word of men who claim to have heard god's word
Posted by vardas0antras 5 years ago
vardas0antras
@ Mirza and m93
Please vote fairly.
Posted by m93samman 5 years ago
m93samman
Posted by Mirza 5 years ago
Mirza
"2. The video."

Would you support the argument in a debate, 'without' the video?
Posted by vardas0antras 5 years ago
vardas0antras
"The answer is neither, both the bible and Quran have flaws."
In this debate there are no alternatives besides you're wrong
Posted by Sitruk39 5 years ago
Sitruk39
The answer is neither, both the bible and Quran have flaws.
Posted by vardas0antras 5 years ago
vardas0antras
"To anyone wishing to debate this topic, please have your facts straight and don't be a troll. Know your stuff before you debate it." I've a feeling that Dave just described himself, no reason but a prediction from experience.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by BillBonJovi 5 years ago
BillBonJovi
Dave34vardas0antrasTied
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Vote Placed by mdeal 5 years ago
mdeal
Dave34vardas0antrasTied
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Vote Placed by m93samman 5 years ago
m93samman
Dave34vardas0antrasTied
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