The Instigator
Mikeee
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
kohai
Con (against)
Winning
24 Points

RE: Noah's flood was an actual historic event

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
kohai
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/13/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,057 times Debate No: 18333
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (8)
Votes (4)

 

Mikeee

Pro

Pro will have to show evidence and the possibility of a flood that was out of the ordinary that impacted the people in which the story in Genesis talks about.

Con will have to show evidence disproving the possibility of a flood that was out of the ordinary that impacted the people in which the story in Genesis talks about.

Both scientific and historical evidence
Round one is just for acceptance.
kohai

Con

Thank you for challenging me.

Noah's flood: An event in the Bible in which God simultaneously covered the entire earth and killing everything but two of every creature and 8 people.

Historical event: An event that has actually occurred.

Plagiarism=Forfeit

Forfeit=Automatic loss

Good luck!
Debate Round No. 1
Mikeee

Pro

We can estimate that the flood referred to in Genies takes place between 10,000 and 5,000 BCE. We also know that agriculture was being invented and it's practices where being adopted all around the world. Post 10,000 BCE was the beginning of the agricultural transition. Why did the whole world change their lifestyle, and how did they all end up doing it at around the same time? The last ice age had only ended around 12,000-11,000 BCE, so instead of a world half covered with ice, the climate was favorable for the cultivation of crops. It is un-debatable that civilizations that existed with isolation to each other made the discovery of agriculture, places such as Mesopotamia, Egypt, India, China, and the Americas. Each of these places being isolated also lead them to the development of their own religions, but there are two things that all of the religions have in common; the both studied the stars and the heavens, which lead most civilizations, like the Maya, to have accurate calendars, and along with the time and the calendars was the belief that humanity was in a cycle of being created and destroyed. The Sumerian story of Noah clearly demonstrates one of the phases of destruction. There is also another story of one of the creation periods; The Maya believed that they were created by the gods, but the gods had to try a few things to create humans before they were pleased, some of the things the gods tried where mud and wood, but they failed. Only until the gods furnished man of maize, where they happy with their creation (Popul Vuh).

These ancient civilizations where also fascinated with the study of the stars, heavens, and their place in the universe. They could track which part of the cycle they were in by the positions of stars and constellations. With their advanced knowledge of astronomy they could figure out the future. These civilizations where the first people to discover that our solar system is in an orbit through the zodiacal belt. They also discovered that along with orbit around the sun and rotation around the axis, our Earth wobbles and at certain times, the poles will point to different stars. Along with these findings they discovered the precision of the equinox. These discoveries are all astronomical facts that determine phases of Earth, such as the ice age.

At the end of the ice age, obviously, the ice melted and caused a change in sea level. This shift was not a sudden change, but more of a transition. Drastic change in sea level lead to climate changes, which could have supported development of agriculture. The melting of the ice cause worldwide floorings, maybe not all at the same time, but none the less, the ice melted and the ocean was not big enough to contain it, therefore, the only possible explanation is that it went somewhere. The continuous cycle of ice ages and global warming have been happening since the creation of Earth, only because the development of complex civilization and writing do we have proof, in the form of creation myths and religious text, that something along these line actually happened. The story of Noah's arch is only one example of a civilization that witnessed this cycle of global warming (flooding), and ice ages. Unless you can scientifically prove that weather has no correlation with astronomy in anyway, can you prove that world flooding never happened, therefor making accounts of stories like Noah's arch fictional.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

http://www.criscenzo.com...
kohai

Con

Thank you so much for taking this debate and I look forward to an excellent debate. Remember we are using a literal reading of Genesis and I will attempt to show how a literal reading is impossible.

Contention 1: The Flood is Scientifically Impossible

C1.1) Tree ring dating

Since we are getting a literal reading of the texts, we know for a fact that the fllood would have occured 2500-2300 BCE [1]. However, this produces a major problem. It is a fact that there are tree ring datings that go well beyond 10,000 years and have produced 0 evidence of a catastrophie of that time [2].

C1.2) The flood did not leave traces on the sea floor.

According to Genesis, the flood lasted for about 1 year. This should be reconizable in the sea floor due to the following:

1. An uncharacteristic amount of terrestrial detrius;
2. Different grain size distribution in the sediment;
3. Shif in oxygen isotope ratios;
4. Massive extinction; and
5. Many other characteristics.

The problem, of course, is that none of those things that are predicted in a global flood have shown up [2].

C1.3) The polar caps are impossible if a global flood really did occur.

Such a mass of water as the Flood would have provided sufficient buoyancy to fload the polar caps off their beds and break them up. They wouldn't regrow quickly. In fact, Greenland would not regrow under modern climatic conditions [2].

Contention 2: A World-wide food is historically impossible.

Since we are taking a literal reading of Genesis, we are also taking a literal reading of the genealogies. Therefore, if we can prove that cultures existed before and after 2500-2300 BCE uninterrupted, we can prove that Noah's flood is a myth.

The Egyptian Pyramids were built about 2560 BCE [6], apparently, the Egyptians were not affected by this "global" flood. Neither was Assyria [4], China [5], or Sumer.

Just a sidebar note, here is an interesting quote from Answers In Genesis:

"The placing of a catastrophic global flood in the year 2304 BC means that all civilizations discovered by archaeology must fit into the last 4,285 years." [8]

Obviously all civilizations do not fit into the last 4,285 years; nor do scientific evidence.

| CONCLUSION |

My opponent has agreed that we are taking a literal reading. Therefore, the historical and scientific evidence is sufficent to prove that a "world-wide" flood never occurd. I could go into math details, but honestly do not feel like it.

I await my opponent's opening arguments as to why Noah's flood is a world-wide is a historical event.

___________
Sources
1. http://www.creationtips.com.........
2. http://www.talkorigins.org.........
3. http://ga.water.usgs.gov.........;
4. http://tinyurl.com.........;
5. http://tinyurl.com.........;
6. http://www.authenticwonders.com.........;(Egyptian Pyramid Source)
7. http://ancienthistory.about.com.........;
8. http://tinyurl.com.........;
Debate Round No. 2
Mikeee

Pro

Mikeee forfeited this round.
kohai

Con

Since a forfeit=automatic loss, I declare victory.
Debate Round No. 3
Mikeee

Pro

you said plagiarism = forfeit, so I assumed you forfeited by copying your exact argument from last debate, even though you wrote it, it's still plagiarism, because you didn't reference it was not original or sited...
kohai

Con

Sorry, but it is not plagiarism when you write it! Plagiarism is defined as:

the act of taking the writings of another person and passing them off as one's own. The fraudulence is closely related to forgery and piracy-practices generally in violation of copyright laws. [1]

Obviously since I had authorization to use it and wrote it myself, it should not be considered plagiarism. My opponent's cop-out fails.

VOTE CON!

References

[1] "Plagiarism | Define Plagiarism at Dictionary.com." Dictionary.com | Find the Meanings and Definitions of Words at Dictionary.com. Dictionary.com. Web. 18 Sept. 2011. <http://dictionary.reference.com...;.
Debate Round No. 4
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
I don't think that there was a worldwide flood at one time. The problem with that is that the atmosphere does not have enough water to support it. How could, say, forty feet of water come out of the atmosphere at one time? There would have to be that much water hovering up there, and there is not.

What I think likely is that there are naturally occurring great floods in many locations. Five hundred year floods are going to be memorable events no matter when they occur, and they are very likely to be enshrined in legends that are passed down. The exact dates are not going to be kept attached. There is no geological evidence of a worldwide great flood.
Posted by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
Mikee, No, I think it's perfectly acceptable to recycle papers for different classes. The one for English would be judged on the quality of expression, while the one for Science would be judged on the accuracy and completeness of the science. Teachers can be quirky, so I suppose it would be a good idea to ask. The teacher's objection would be that you should put in more hours to learn he subject, rather than that the paper was an illicit copy. It's along the lines of coach demanding that you run new laps today even though you ran laps yesterday; it's for your benefit.

In a debate, there is no reason why a person needs to put in extra work for the purpose of learning the general subject matter. The debate stands on it's own merits. A debate argument can be a long quote from another source, so long as the source is acknowledged. If the source is not acknowledged, it's a one point conduct violation, but the argument still stands on it's merits. If Jefferson said something better than I can, I'll use him and acknowledge it. Once the argument is entered into the debate, the debater than owns it and must defend it.

If you insist on new arguments, you must put that in as a condition of the challenge. You could also condition it on the general type of argument, something like, "For this debate, the opposing Argument from Evil is excluded."
Posted by Mikeee 5 years ago
Mikeee
Yes, you can, and its easy to do. Your allowed to plagiarize yourself, but you have to make sure you show that it is not it original use. It doesn't matter to much here, but make sure you don't do anything like that on something that counts towards something.
Posted by kohai 5 years ago
kohai
You can't do self plagiarism.
Posted by Mikeee 5 years ago
Mikeee
We are not debating what plagiarism is, but let's say you write a paper for science class and hand it in, then you go to English and hand in the same paper, unless you made an indication that you have had previously used the paper, then that is still plagiarism. If you had said something like, I'm going to use the same argument as last debate, then copied and pasted it, then that would be fine, but you put the same thing and did not mention it, so it was assumed it was a new point when it was not. Also some of the things you needed to change, like the part where it says we are talking about the literal meaning, when I did not say that we where for this debate. You have to be careful because self plagiarism is easy to do.
Posted by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
I agree with Innomen and Roy; the corrobating myths of the flood, be it that of Gilgamesh, in ancient China, Greek, Bablyonian and Sumerian, and so on, indicate either a possible universal or at least common flood event that lead to the diverse body of flood myths.
Posted by innomen 5 years ago
innomen
I agree with Roy that the specificty of the biblical reference made it easier for pro to win. However, there is reason to believe there was some sort of flood event due to corroborating mythis from different cultures, the epic of Gilgamesh is about a flood event.
Posted by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
Pro actually left himself room to win the debate by defining: "a flood that was out of the ordinary that impacted the people in which the story in Genesis talks about." Since a thousand year flood occurs every thousand years, it likely that some flood inspired the Bible story, probably a great flood of the Nile. However, Pro didn't work that angle. The end of the Ice Age would produce a gradual rise in sea level, not a flood. There isn't enough water on earth to raise seal level more than 400 feet, so the Bible story is scientifically impossible.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by DanT 5 years ago
DanT
MikeeekohaiTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Mike foreitted
Vote Placed by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
MikeeekohaiTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Mikee forfeited and falsely accused Kohai of plagarizing, even when kohai provided sources for his claims. Mikee's own argument is based on not a literal interpretation of Noah's flood and Kohai at least challenged the literal interpretation of Genesis' flood...Kohai made numerous claims, one of which--involving the polar ice caps--refuted Mikee's entire argument....
Vote Placed by F-16_Fighting_Falcon 5 years ago
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
MikeeekohaiTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit
Vote Placed by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
MikeeekohaiTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro forfeited, which by agreed upon rules loses all points. I assume Pro accepted the rules because he didn't object, and took the plagiarism rule to be operative. Copying oneself is ever plagiarism. Pro conceded arguments by asserting that the end of the ice age brought a gradual change in sea level. The Biblical flood was sudden. Pro should have tied assertions to his references. Pro S