The Instigator
democracyman
Pro (for)
Losing
6 Points
The Contender
FiredUpRepublican
Con (against)
Winning
20 Points

REAL democracy in america - are we ready? Let's DEMAND - NATIONAL BALLOT MEASURES

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/18/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 892 times Debate No: 1933
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (8)

 

democracyman

Pro

We have Ballot Measures in about 35 of the 50 states.

People have used them to lower their taxes, support great ideas like California just passed a STATE BALLOT MEASURE to allow Stem Cell Research and even funded it, so now the largest scientific community in this field is moving to California and eventually they may find the cures to the most dreaded diseases.

While on a National Level President Bush, who had a grade point average of "C-" in college has told the nation that this kind of reseach is immoral and would never result in any signficant breakthoughs in finding cures.

When did the office of President become our moral leader? AND, even if he were the BUDDHA or CHRIST resurrected, IN A DEMOCRACY shouldn't the MAJORITY of the voters decide issues like this?

There are hundreds of other examples I could use to cite the benefits of National Ballot Measures. Here are a few of my favorites.

We could ABOLISH the act of LOBBYING our Congressmen and women.

We could HOLD their salaries in ESCROW until they balance the budget.

We could declare an end to unpopular wars by killing the Funding for the war.

We could vote more money for the schools, or roads, or hospitals.

We could lower our taxes or change the tax system to a FLAT TAX thus eliminating all those dreaded and time consuming tax forms we have to fill out ever April 15th.

We could raise the speed limit on the Federal Highways like they do on the autobahn.

We could vote to take away subsidies from the farms or the Oil Companies.

We could fund a Manhattan type project to find the next Alternative Energy that would remove us from the addiction to foreign oil.

We could STOP PAYING FOREIGN AID to countries like Pakistan. (We have given them almost $12 Billion of our dollars to find Osama and arrest him and instead the money has gone into a dictators Personal Swiss Bank Accounts.)

We could punish any corporation who exports good American jobs overseas.

We could solve the Social Security Crisis by merely raising the upper limit of income tax levels and make the wealthy pay. Warren Buffett and his cronies pays less tax than their secretaries do and it's time to make the tax system more equitable toward the middle class.

I could go on and on. But, as you see, these are all things that should have been decided by our Congress decades ago. These people only vote for the causes where they have been richly compensated by the LOBBYISTS. They do NOT represent us any longer.

Only a system of National Initiatives, AND THEN LETTING THE PEOPLE VOTE ON THEM DIRECTLY, thus NEUTRALIZING the impact of the lobbyists, the parties, the special interest, NATIONAL PROPOSITIONS similar to the ones I have listed above can save this country from the current trend to oblivion.

Some will say I'm a dreamer. But, I know I'm not the only one. We The People are the final arbiters in this system. We are the entire reason that government exists. We don't live to serve them. THEY are appointed and elected to serve us. We abolished the RULE OF KINGS and TYRANTS when we had the 1st American Revolution.

The 2nd one is starting now. We have the tools to make it happen. All we have to do is band together and then demand it.
FiredUpRepublican

Con

You speak of Democracy as if it doesn't exist. People vote on a variety of issues yearly and determine whether our state, or our nation, needs to amend, do away with, or add laws. The point blank fact here is that people everywhere do not think the same. California passed a Stem Cell Research Bill, but your state hasn't? It might be because your state as a whole doesn't approve of it. People have minds to think for themselves, they don't need to be told how to vote.

It is interesting how you mention the College grades of George Bush. There are plenty of people in the world who didn't have the best book smarts, but are some of the smartest people in the world. Grades don't really prove all that much. That is evident because Bush was elected twice, not just once!

Our Presidents have always been moral leaders. The fact that you don't agree with their actions doesn't make them unethical. We control what is done by who we put in Office. Does The President need our approval to eat or sleep? Do we need to hold elections to determine which candidate we support based on their platform? Say a candidate says "I will work to end abortion.". That is pretty straight forward. You vote for this person and they will be working hard to end abortion any way they can.

I'd sure hope you'd have more respect for Jesus Christ than you portray. And even if you don't, a respect for people's beliefs would be ethical and attacks on people's beliefs show a low sign of character.

You listed many ballot measures you would like to see, what you believe to be morally correct. In retrospect, is it up to you to be our moral leader? Alas, I feel like I should address a few of these issues.

"We could declare an end to unpopular wars by killing the Funding for the war."

And leave our troops over there with nothing? I doubt the majority of the Nation want to see our troops defenseless in a foreign country. Those men and women signed up for the military knowing the war is going on. Enlistment rates are contantly growing. There are many people who believe the war is a good cause. Including me.

"We could vote more money for the schools, or roads, or hospitals. "

I'm pretty sure every state includes these measures in every election. I have never voted and not seen one proposal. I have yet to see the proposals fail.

"We could raise the speed limit on the Federal Highways like they do on the autobahn."

Do you watch the news? Do you drive? There are countless people out there who drive like they're on a NASCAR track, not to mention the drunk drivers. It is ludicrous to propose raising speed limits when people die every day from reckless driving.

"I could go on and on. But, as you see, these are all things that should have been decided by our Congress decades ago. These people only vote for the causes where they have been richly compensated by the LOBBYISTS. They do NOT represent us any longer. "

Once again, we vote for candidates based on their platforms.

"Only a system of National Initiatives, AND THEN LETTING THE PEOPLE VOTE ON THEM DIRECTLY, thus NEUTRALIZING the impact of the lobbyists, the parties, the special interest, NATIONAL PROPOSITIONS similar to the ones I have listed above can save this country from the current trend to oblivion."

You speak of doing away with lobbyists when you are being one yourself. Under your proposal, no one should pay you any mind because you are technically a lobbyist. If a person feels passionate about an issue enough to stand up in front of the world, in front of our government, they deserve to be heard. We have voted on these candidates based on their platforms, and in some cases their political careers. We have no one to blame but ourselves if you wish to point the finger. WE put these people in office time and time again

The American Revolution was a war against an oppressing country and really isn't an equivalent to the proposal you have put forth. Also, in indirect association, you have called for a war on our own soil. By saying it is time for another American revolution, you are in theory calling for us to take up arms and take down the government.
Debate Round No. 1
democracyman

Pro

You have all your facts incorrect, my friend.

You start by saying we already vote on these issues?

I would like you to cite the last time, We the Voters were allowed to vote on any NATIONAL ISSUES directly on any Federal Ballot.

The rest of your arguments are all the same, incorrectly stated.

I am in California and we in California DID PASS SUCH a LAW. Did you not READ my argument correctly?

I hope you are not representative of most Republicans, because you don't understand cogent arguments, you follow leaders with no real intellect and you have no understanding of the real issues.

A poor attempt at insulting me is not a debate.

Read it again and then maybe you will understand. In a DEMOCRACY the MAJORITY OPINION overrules all party propaganda and lobbyist bribery.

Actually, all of YOUR arguments make my point for me. We need to listen to the OPINIONS of the MAJORITY of Americans, in place of people like you, Party Propagandists.
FiredUpRepublican

Con

The point of the whole arguement was that we indirectly vote on the federal issues by who we put in office to respresent our state and our country. Nobody goes into a voting station blindfolded.

I was not aware that you are from California. That still doesn't change the fact that everyone doesn't necessarily feel the same you do on the hard issues.

Much of my arguments, especially those in reference to your proposed ballot measures, are not incorrectly stated. How can you refute the driving death rates in America? Schools and roads are more of a local level issue. Surely you don't expect Congress to sit down and find the smallest county in any given state and focus on improving their roads. That is what local government is for.

Majority voted Bush in twice. Majority votes in our officials who in turn vote on the issues the way they state. We have been electing these people to vote for us for our entire existence. Example: The War In Iraq. People knew that most Democrats wanted to end it or find a ebtter way towards success. Soultion? Vote Democrats in the Congress and House. Iraq has been their hot button issue from Day 1 and they were voted in by Majority to figure out a fix to it.
Debate Round No. 2
democracyman

Pro

democracyman forfeited this round.
FiredUpRepublican

Con

FiredUpRepublican forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by C-Mach 9 years ago
C-Mach
"While on a National Level President Bush, who had a grade point average of "C-" in college has told the nation that this kind of reseach is immoral and would never result in any signficant breakthoughs in finding cures."

Do you want to know who had a D average in college? John Kerry.
Posted by rshortman 9 years ago
rshortman
Great debate. I did find it humorous that this older gentleman got his a$$ handed to him by a young Republican but I guess that's not hard to do when your opponent is championing a form of government that has been proven by history to be fallible.
Posted by mjg283 9 years ago
mjg283
This has always been one of my pet peeves. This country is NOT a Democracy, nor has it ever been. We are a Republican -- the Constitution guarantees each state a REPUBLICAN form of government, not a democracy.

Indeed, NATIONAL ballot measures on issues like war and taxes would be patently unconstitutional, since the power to legislate on those issues is specifically delegated to CONGRESS in Article I. The Constitution specifically lays out the process for enacting federal legislation (Congress passes it, the President signs it), and that process does not involve the general population voting on it.

In a constitutional republic, the People elect representatives to send to Congress and allow those representatives to support or oppose legislation based on their best judgment as to what is best both for their constituents and the country as a whole. Indeed, one of the BENEFITS of this system is that it allows members of Congress (who, most of the time, are far more informed about the issues they're voting on than the General Public is) to cast votes based on their judgment as to the best policy even if the public disagrees. If a member of Congress uses this power in a manner his constituents believe is ineffective, they can kick him out in two years. But during those two years, he gets to do what he thinks is best.
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Vote Placed by C-Mach 8 years ago
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