The Instigator
Logical-Master
Con (against)
Tied
21 Points
The Contender
SchinkBR
Pro (for)
Tied
21 Points

RESOLVED: In a fight to the death, Darth Vader would defeat Darth Revan

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Post Voting Period
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after 6 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/17/2008 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 6,228 times Debate No: 5435
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (27)
Votes (6)

 

Logical-Master

Con

I could create my own case, but since I don't feel like it, I'll simply borrow one from some other guy and am prepared to defend all of these points accordingly. Plus, I probably would have made these points regardless. Anyway, congrats to Janus Marius from the KMC forums.

I strongly negate the resolution as Revan is easily one of the most powerful force wielders in the Star Wars universe. Comparing Vader to him is like comparing an ant to a mountain lion.

1: The only reliable source I recall as labeling Anakin/Vader as the chosen one and the most powerful Jedi is relatively current sources... i.e. jedi of his time period. Knights of the Old Republic takes place many eras ago, and undoubtedly much knowledge was lost over time. It is reasonable enough to chalk up Vader's esteemed status to his being the classic, most well-known Sith and to the limited knowledge of his peers. Remember, Yoda is not even a thousand years old, and Revan's time was four thousand previous.

2: Vader has little influence for a true Sith warrior. In A New Hope, he is outranked by the non-Force sensitive Moff in charge of the Death Star. (I believe it's Moff Tarkin... I could be wrong.) He does not lead massive armies, nor is he particularly deadly in saber combat. His abilities have definately atrophied since his youth. I would also like to point out that as of Attack of the Clones, Anakin/Vader was a mere boy with little discipline. Regardless of his potential, I believe his discipline would always hold him back. In A New Hope, Vader often lost his temper, though that was rarely the case later on.

3: Willpower. Vader was pretty much dominated by Darth Sidious, or else he would have eventually struck down his master and become Sith Lord himself. Revan's willpower was pretty much legendary, as he failed to be consumed by the dark energies of Malachor V; instead he was able to harness tham for his own benefit. He was also able to convert and train numerous Jedi, as opposed to Vader's Jedi-genocide.

4: Knowledge. Revan was meticulous in gleaning knowledge of the Jedi and the Sith, and his era was a so-called golden era of Jedi and Sith knowledge. He certainly would be more formidable based on what he would know that Vader would be ignorant of.

5: Lastly, ability. Vader is a practitioner of Form V saber fighting, which is an aggressive style that has an emphasis on taking the fight to the opponent. A key part of this style of fighting is not blast deflection (As was Form III, used by Obi Wan) but rather directly reflecting blasts back at the enemy. This form relied a lot on open movements and emotional energy. If Revan was a formidable saber duelist, it is reasonable to believe that he would have mastered Form II (Which is what Dooku used... a primarily fencing type form used to combat other swordsmen... a primarily Sith-type form) among other forms, some perhaps which were lost in all those millenia. And while I'm thinking of it, let's not forget Revan's amazing charisma. He was a sly cunning opponent who should never be underestimated. Vader is rather basic and pretty predictable.

Thus, taking all of these points into account, is quite clear that Vader would be outclassed by Revan's saber skills, force knowledge and sheer force potential. Heck, Revan is from a time where Sith lords were able to force grip suns with ease. Obviously, Vader (nor even Sidious) are capable of such a feat given that they need a machine (the Death Star) just to destroy a mere planet. No way can Vader even DREAM about beating Revan.

That's all the points I shall be making for the time being (although I'll probably make some new ones in the next round). Later. :D
SchinkBR

Pro

First, I'd like to thank my opponent for creating such a unique topic. Although I frown upon the plagiarism, I will not make any points about it in my case. Also, I will not negate my opponents case in the first round as that would be unfair to him.

I strongly affirm the resolution that "In a fight to the death, Darth Vader would defeat Darth Revan."

My first point is that Vader was known as one of the best fighters of his time, even before his turn to the dark side. He survived the Battle of Genosis and did very well in it too, even prior to the arrival of the other Jedi. And that was when he was still just an apprentice. He would go on to more or less defeat Count Duuko by himself. Then he discovered that Palpatine was a Sith and then after his turn he essentially killed Mace Windu, the best fighter of the time, and then went on to kill every Jedi who was at the temple, no easy task considering the number of Jedi that were there. He then went on to hunt down and kill almost all of the remaining Jedi, largely by himself. That was a task that Revan never accomplished himself even with all of his warships and minions.

My next contention is that Darth Vader was always prepared. He always went into a task knowing what needed to be done and he went on to accomplish it. On the rare occasion that he was surprised (Han solo shooting him with the Falcon being the only time that comes to memory) he came out of the situation alive and usually victorious. Revan on the other hand, would have been defeated by Bastila and her companions (which had been a surprise attack and none of which were Jedi masters) if his apprentice hadn't attacked Revan's ship. Revan would have died there had it not been for the unusual act by Bastila. He was again surprised by the revelation that he was Revan after she/he was told the truth.

My third contention is that Vader had a better connection to the Force. My basis of this is quite simple; he had a higher midichlorian count. This is apparent in the movies when it is stated that he had the highest count to date. This would mean a higher count than Revan, who would be on file since he was/is a Jedi.

My 4th contention is that Vader could endure a lot more than Revan could. This is for the obvious reason that he was a cyborg. The benefits of his suit were enormous. The armor itself is the most obvious advantage; it could take some of the hits before Vader would even feel anything. According to starwars.com "Vader's armor was built around a plastoid girdle that protected his organic and synthetic internal organs. More visible durasteel plates covered his shoulders, upper body and shins. He wore a suit of quilted flexible blast-dampening multi-ply padding, and a cloak of armor weave. His gloves were made with a unique micronized iron that can deflect anything..." Furthermore, he had a regulated respiratory system and thus he would take longer to tire. Finally, since a large part of Vader wasn't actual flesh (legs and arms) he wouldn't feel pain from strikes as Revan would.

Finally, it is illogical to even compare Vader to Revan. Due to the style of game, the combat strength or Revan could vary. Depending on what class of person and Jedi you became could drastically alter how many Force powers and attributes you had. So depending on who played the game Revan could be a really strong fighter who could challenge, but in my opinion not beat, Vader, or Revan could be a skill centralized player who would have no chance at beating Revan one on one.

So in conclusion, Vader is widely considered the best fighter of his time, both as a Jedi and as a Sith. Furthermore Vader was always prepared and rarely surprised. Also Vader had the best recorded midichlorian count even through the newest series of books. Next, Vader's armored suit gave him a distinct advantage over Revan. And finally, due to the nature of the game which Revan came from, his/her skills varied immensely. For all of these reasons I urge a pro ballot. I look forward to the next round.
Debate Round No. 1
Logical-Master

Con

OFF-CASE: I'd just like to point out that I am not plagiarizing as I did cite the person who I got this argument from; I acknowledged that this wasn't my work and acknowledged whose work this belonged, thus not plagiarism.

Onto my rebuttal.

RE: "My first point is that Vader was known as one of the best fighters of his time"

Yes, of HIS time.

First, let us remember that the force wielders in the films are of the time where much of knowledge of the force from the past has been forgotten. They know of only a fraction due to a fraction of holycrons. This is why it's considered impressive for Darth Sidious to know Force Storm (whereas as seen in KOTOR, this a move which a large portion of the sith ranks are familiar with).

Second, we must keep in mind that Vader had lost his human appendages, thus at the same time, had lost a large portion of his abilities which he had in Episode III. This is why we see Vader as slow and clunky in his movements.

Third, we must remember that during the original trilogy, there were not that many force wielders around (due the Emperor's "order 66" during Revenge of the Sith).

With these three points being taken into consideration, we know that Vader's potential for force/saber abilities are far below that of the potential for force wielders during Revan's time, that Vader fighting style is limited and predictable due to his state of health and that there were not that many force wielders to compare him with. Thus, CON claiming that Vader was one of the the best fighters of HIS time (in particular) is absolutely meaningless when comparing him to someone such as Revan.

In addition, even if we are to go so far as to compare Revan to Vader (prior to his defeat against Obiwan), it matters little as the fact remains that Vader got his butt handed to him by a force wielder far less powerful than himself (Obiwan), thus this doesn't speak much of his abilities. And given that Revan was known for his genius as well as keeping a cool head, it is reasonable to conclude that even if Revan were less powerful than Vader, he would be able to beat him in the same manner Obi-wan had (not to mention the fact that Revan's force/saber knowledge is endless in comparison to Obi-wan's).

RE"My next contention is that Darth Vader was always prepared. "

Why wasn't he prepared for the trouncing Luke (an inexperienced Jedi with very little real training might I add) handed him in ROTJ? How did he (a so-called ace pilot and someone who is force sensitive) get shot down by Han Solo in the first place? How is it that in the recent "Force Unleashed" game, he was made out to look like a pathetic fool when facing off against "The Apprentice" as seen in the vid to the right. Sure, you might argue that the apprentice was simply more powerful, but then why didn't Vader simply stick to the idea of using the apprentice to kill the emperor rather than give the apprentice a reason to want to kill him (Vader)?

As far as this business about Revan goes, I would have to disagree with my opponent. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Revan would have been defeated by Bastilla and her companions. In the game, Revan and two other party members take down an army of Sith Masters, apprentices and such. As shown in one of the cutscenes, Malak is not surprised that Revan is able to do this and simply states that these troops are simply being used to stall (not to actually defefat Revan). This was before Malak knew Revan had become far more powerful. So tell me: If it is easily understood that Revan can (even with the help of two companions) take out an army of Sith, why should one even consider believing that he would have lost to Bastilla and a few other Jedi? Also, don't you find it strange that Malak would need to fire down on Revan within the safety of a battleship? If Revan could be defeated so easily, why didn't Malak just grab a few Sith Masters and just gang up on Revan at his own convenience?

Also, just to be clear, I'm talking about Revan at the end the game (the Revan who seeks to go to the outer rim and go find the true sith).

RE"My basis of this is quite simple; he had a higher midichlorian count. This is apparent in the movies when it is stated that he had the highest count to date."

Doesn't matter. Pretty much all the information on past force wielders had been lost over the years. There's no way they'd know Revan's midichlorian count (much less Exar Kun's, Nihulus's, etc). Plus, given that the force wielding feats (sun moving, planet consuming) are far greater during the time of the Old republic, there is an abundant amount of evidence for my assertion. All that being said, even if you don't buy this, midichlorian count doesn't mean everything. Again, look back to Obi-wan laying the smack down on Anakin.

RE: "My 4th contention is that Vader could endure a lot more than Revan could. "

Not true. When you equip Revan's robes (or the light side robes provided in the star forge), your stats increase by an abundant amount. Thus, Revan's clothing brings him benefits as well. Not to mention that Vader's clothing is actually detrimental given how slow it makes him. In addition, the damage from force lightning would be far greater given that Vader's suit is metal.

"Finally, it is illogical to even compare Vader to Revan. Due to the style of game, the combat strength or Revan could vary. "

Not at all. The means of debating as PRO is rather simple. As PRO, you simply have to prove the regardless of what combat strength Revan is given, that Vader would still win

In response to PRO's conclusion, I cannot help but notice that his points hinge on Vader after he had lost his (the Vader who supposedly is always prepared, has an amored suit) appendages and Vader before he had lost them (The Vader with the high midichlorian count). In all honesty, I had intended to have this debate with the Darth Vader of the original trilogy being taken into consideration, but I'm willing to argue against both incarnations of Vader. That said, it is simply illogical to argue these two different incarnations as if they are the same (as PRO is doing).

DROPPED ARGUMENTS: PRO has not once addressed any of the 5 points I made in R1, so please pull them all across to this round.

That'll do it for now. Till next round. :D
SchinkBR

Pro

As I said in my third sentence, I did not refute any of my opponent's contentions because that would give me an unfair advantage. However now I will refute my opponent's contentions and then move on to my own.

My opponent's first contention is that the only source that says Vader is the chosen one is a current one. Since when is this a bad thing? Current sources are based on all of the information one has and is the most reliable source. You wouldn't site a source for the U.S. economy from when Reagan was president.

His next point is that Vader had little influence. This could not be farther from the truth. To understand why my opponent's statement is false, you must first realize that Vader was part of an established government. Almost all previous Sith Lords had been part of a move to take over the Republic. The key difference is that when you are leading a revolution your military leaders are on top of the chain of command. However when you are part of the established government on the defensive, political leaders, like the Grand Moffs, have more influence. Don't let this fool you, Vader was the second in the chain of command for the military, but much like the U.S. government, that doesn't mean he's number two overall.

Despite what my opponents third contention says Vader tried several times to overthrow the Emperor, the most memorable time being when he fought Luke on Cloud City. After Vader's earlier attempts at this, the Emperor would often try to kill Vader, only to have his minions fail. Thus The Emperor himself realized that he could not afford to kill Vader, he could only thwart his attempts. Furthermore, Revan only trained with Malak, it was their minions that killed or turned most of the Jedi. Vader on the other hand, killed almost all of the Jedi that were left after Order 66.

My opponent's fourth point is completely irrelevant since both Revan and Vader started off as Jedi (and as far as we know, Revan ended up a Jedi and forgot his Sith powers)

Again, this point is completely muted based on the fact that Revan's skills varied depending on how you played the game. Furthermore older forms and weapons are often forgotten because they become obsolete. Do you see anyone using bows and arrows in wars anymore? Of course not.

Now to defend my case

My opponent agrees with me that Vader was one of the best fighters of his time. However there is nothing to prove that Revan was the best of his time. Revan was great at making battle plans, yes. However that does not make him a great individual fighter. In fact, he is never mentioned outside of the game at all. If he was so powerful, why isn't he on par with Exar Khun? In the cut scene where he fights Bastilla he is clearly retreating and on the defensive to a handful of Jedi Knights. That does not bode well for his fighting skills. Yes, there may have been a lot fewer force wielders after Order 66, however the ones that remained where hard to track down and some of the most powerful Jedi. Yet Vader beat almost all of them on his own. I would not say that Obi-Wan was ever a weak opponent. First of all, given all of their training he knew Vader's every move. Secondly, Obi-Wan was a Jedi Master of his own right and widely considered one of the best fighters second only to Mace Windu and Anakin/Vader.

As for Vader being prepared, he was prepared for Luke. He knew Luke would be on the moon and that he'd confront Vader there. Furthermore he stopped Luke from attacking the Emperor. As for Han Solo, in Episode 5 Vader does block Solo's shots. As for Episode 4, it has always been known that perceiving someone's intentions in a space battle is much harder because of the speed and distance that everything is happening at. As for Revan taking on all of the Sith army, there was nothing unique about that. Similar situations happened before. In fact there were several scenes where Anakin takes on more opponents at once, sometimes by himself, than Revan ever did.

And again, just to be clear, there is no evidence to prove that Revan went to the outer rim to become a Sith. He could have gone there to retire and live a peaceful life. Maybe he didn't even make there. We know he didn't have the Ebon Hawk anymore. Why?

There is no reason to believe that the Jedi would not have Revan's midichlorian count numbers in the Jedi Achieves. No matter how you look at it, Revan is a Jedi at several points throughout the game, and thus they would have kept those records on file.

Although Revan did have armor and clothes that benefited him as well, one must assume that the technology had advanced significantly over the millennium. Think about it? Does anyone still wear suits of armor? No, and that technology isn't even 500 years old, let alone 1000. Furthermore, Vader's suit was made from plastoid, not metal. Thus it would not conduct electricity.

For of these reasons I urge you to vote pro.
Debate Round No. 2
Logical-Master

Con

>>>RE 1:"You wouldn't site a source for the U.S. economy from when Reagan was president."

PRO completely avoids my argument. The point I'm making is that the force wielders of the OT/Prequel time period say Vader/Anakin as the chosen one, or rather what I'm really getting at, as a really powerful jedi, but as pointed out, much of the force knowledge of Revan's time had been lost over the 4000 years between his time and Vader's. Thus, for Anakin/Vader to be well regarded as "top notch" means little given that his age was an age of weak ignorant force wielders who don't even compare to the force wielders of the past.

>>>RE 2: "This could not be farther from the truth."

Do we see Vader amassing large forces based on his own influence as was the case for Revan? No, Do we see Vader calling all of the shots as Revan did for his army? No, he is merely the lap dog of the emperor. Heck, note the following line taken from a New Hope:

LEIA: "Governor Tarkin, I should have expected to find you holding Vader's leash. I recognized your foul stench when I was brought on board."

Holding Vader's leash? PRO would like you to believe that Vader was second in the chain of command for the military, but lines like these make it rather apparent that this was not the case. Heck, when Vader was force choking someone, Tarkin ORDERED him to stop and Vader complied without hesitation as if he were a slave.

Speaking of all previous Sith Lords, who was second in command for Sidious previously? Was it a mere human? Of course not. It was count Dooku. So why is it that Vader didn't get promoted until a mere human died?

>>>RE 3:"Despite what my opponents third contention says Vader tried several times to overthrow the Emperor"

Nowhere in my third contention do I insist that Vader hasn't tried to overthrow the Emperor. My argument is simply that there have been no results for Vader and that Vader's will power is weaker than Revan's. As far as trying to have Vader killed, this clearly doesn't say much as if the Emperor really considered him a threat, he would have killed Vader himself. Clearly, he hasn't in spite of the many opportunities he has had. At best, Vader attempts were nothing more than a nuisance comparable to that of a housefly buzzing around one's head.

As for Revan not turning most of the the jedi to his cause, my opponent is directly contradicting the source material itself.

"Ah, but to make officers turn on their own people, to bomb innocent worlds to make pacts… strong influence, indeed."
―Kreia (in reference to Revan)

Thus, it was not his minions, but Revan himself who caused Jedi to be persuaded and turned to the dark side (it should be noted that I didn't mean training to any other extent than that his actions in causing the jedi to go the dark side made them become more powerful).

>>>RE 4: "My opponent's fourth point is completely irrelevant since both Revan and Vader started off as Jedi (and as far as we know, Revan ended up a Jedi and forgot his Sith powers)"

How is Revan having more knowledge than Vader (someone who is from a time where A GREAT DEAL of force knowledge was lost) in terms of the main weapon being used during this battle (the force) irrelevant when the topic concerns who'd more likely be victorious in battle? Just because both started off as jedi, it means nothing in terms of who has more knowledge.

Also, if Revan did in fact end up losing his Sith powers, then PRO should provide some evidence (since he brought up this point). Otherwise, we have no reason to believe this, especially considering that what we do know is that Revan simply went off to even learn MORE about the Sith given that his knowledge he had acquired otherwise was already at its max.

>>>RE 5: "this point is completely muted based on the fact that Revan's skills varied depending on how you played the game."

I covered this sufficiently in the previous round (and PRO doesn't address that in this round, so extend it).

Also, my opponent's analogy is a false analogy (primarily because it assumes that the Jedi from the New Republic had improved in spite of the fact that they didn't') . In terms of Starwars, it's like the force wielders from the Old Republic had machine guns nuclear bombs whereas the force wielders from the New Republic are limited to bows and arrows. Much knowledge was lost over time.

>>>>>IN RESPONSE TO PRO'S CASE:

>>>RE POINT 1) Yes, I did agree that Vader was one of the best fighters of his time just as I might agree that in a group of 5 mentally retarded children, one retarded child might excel mentally moreso than the others. In other words, it's not saying much about Vader considering he comes from a time of pathetic force wielders. Also, this debate isn't about proving whether or not Revan is the greatest force wielder of his time (whether he was or wasn't, I'd still have plenty of room to claim that Revan > Vader) , so I won't bother covering that red herring.

As far as the cut scene goes, we don't see any fight, so it shouldn't be regarded as a means of determining who was more powerful. Even so, I would assume that Revan got in a defensive stance because that's one any fighter does when preparing to engage in a fight.

As for the force wielders who remained after "Order 66", they were hardly powerful. Even the Apprentice from the New game wasn't quite as powerful as Vader yet, but was able to handle them with ease.

As for Obi Wan, even if we are to go so far as to say that he knew Anakin's every move, we would also have to acknowledge that Anakin would know every one of his moves, thus, there is no advantage here as this balances out. Second, the point I'm making is that in spite of Anakin's power, he was beaten by someone FAR weaker than himself. By acknowledging that Obi-wan won by skill, you're acknowledging skill beats strength.

RE POINT 2: No, Vader was not REALLY prepared for Luke. If he were prepared, how did he lose? And yeah, he stopped Luke from attacking the Emperor (not like the Emperor needed his help), but that's irrelevant.

As for Han Solo, I wasn't talking about what he did in Episode 5, only episode 4. For someone with the ability to see into the future, it's pretty pitiful to get shot down by someone who doesn't have the ability to block this power (as any force wielder would). Judging the surroundings in a space battle is simple for someone who can tap into the force. How do you think Luke managed to fire his missiles into the Death Star weak point?

As for taking on numerous opponent's, I challenge PRO to show us one instance where Anakin took on a whole army of force wielders. Taking on a couple of people and taking on a legions of people are two completely different situations.

PRO ignores my points concerning the video I posted in the previous round. Again, note how pitiful Vader is and note how the Emperor labels him as "weak."

RE POINT 3: I provided a reason as to why the Jedi wouldn't have Revan's midicholorian count and that is because much of the knowledge has been lost over the past 4000 years. PRO ignores this, thus consider this point dropped by him.

RE POINT 4: No, one mustn't assume that. PRO must present evidence in order for this claim to be accepted. And I challenge PRO to show me a new republic device on par with the Star Forge (a device which uses the force to create matter, hence create an infinite amount of ships and weaponry). Also, Vader's suit was also made up of durasteel, so he is wrong about there being no metal.

BOTTOMLINE: Revan has too many advantages over Vader (knowledge, skill, mobility, will power). PRO's arguments are plagued by the fact that they end up having to rely on the prequal Vader and the OT Vader having the same abilities, in spite of the fact that they don't. And finally, Revan was the master whereas Vader always remained as the pawn. Thus, it is clear that in a match, Revan would most likely be t
SchinkBR

Pro

Again I will start with the Con and move to Pro.

He claims that I avoided the point of his first contention. This could not be further from the truth. It was just addressed later. However for the convenience of everyone I'll clarify those points here. Yes, lots of knowledge was lost over 4000 years. However that isn't necessarily a bad thing. For example, how many people still know how to use a bow and arrow? Not many, right? Now how about a gun? Point being that the knowledge was lost because it became irrelevant. My opponent seems to think that the Jedi knew nothing about the past. However they had a very extensive archive with thousands of years of knowledge, this source of knowledge wasn't destroyed until after Anakin became Vader, thus he would have known anything about the past that was worth knowing.

My opponent's second point really holds very little weight. He'd like you to think that just because a civilian outranked him meant that he had no influence. Again, just look at the U.S. Military. Each branch of the military has three civilians ahead of the highest ranking officers. Does that mean that the Chief of Staffs have no influence. Of course not. In fact, Vader had more influence than any U.S. military leader. No U.S. leader has killed an Admiral and a Captain without having any repercussions. Remember, Malak, who beat Revan before this point, didn't kill Admiral Saul. Why? Because he needed him, for if no other reason, to keep all of his troops. Furthermore, despite the fact that Vader did command armies, he still managed to accomplish more on his own than Revan ever did. However most importantly my opponent's point is completely irrelevant. One's political standing does not have any impact on a fight to the death.

Next my opponent would like you to believe that Vader couldn't overthrow the Emperor. However this is not from the lack of effort. Even after all of this effort the Emperor eventually stopped trying to kill Vader. Furthermore he never directly confronted Vader. Thus one can conclude that the Emperor was scared of fighting Vader one on one.

My opponent tries to use a quote from Krea (who is arguably insane) to disprove that Revan didn't turn the Jedi. However it really proves nothing. It never makes a direct reference to Revan. Why? Because again it was Revan's minions doing this.

My opponent seems to have missed my argument about his fourth contention. I was saying that Revan and Vader would have the same knowledge from both side of the force. In fact, Vader would have more since he'd have more access to more information. My opponent says I need to prove that Revan lost his powers. I don't know how else to put it other than how I already have. Revan's strengths and weakness, and his powers, vary with how you play the game. Speaking of evidence, my opponent spent 3 rounds saying that knowledge was lost without ever citing evidence about that.

I'm not sure how my opponent thinks he won hid fifth point when I refuted it last round.

Now to defend my case.

Vader's time was hardly full of pathetic force wielders. There were many great names in that time, Mace Windu, Yoda and Obi-Wann, just to name a few. Furthermore, Vader killed many more, great Jedi in the temple. And I'm sorry to bring this up in this round but since my opponent doesn't seem to remember the cut scene very well I'm providing a link that shows Revan retreating and on the defensive. . Again, who ever said that Obi-Wann was far weaker than Vader? Obi-Wann was on the Jedi council. How can anyone consider a council member weak?

As for my second point, prepared people have lost battles all the time. The confederates were prepared for Gettysburg but they still lost. As for Han, anyone who watches or reads Star Wars knows that strong willed people can hide their presences in the force. Han is pretty much the definition of strong willed. Anakin took on legions of enemies in almost every episode, as well as every book he was in. Episode 1, he destroyed a battle station on his own. In Episode 2, it was the Sand People, the landing on Genosis, and the fight that happened after their "rescue." Episode 3, he flew his way to General Grievous' ship only to fight more troops once he boarded, and latter he killed Count Dooku there. He later fought his way through every Jedi at the Jedi Temple and then all of the Separatists. I think I've made my point. All I have to say about the video is the tin the end; it is Vader who is still the Emperor's right hand.

Why should my third contention be dropped? My opponent has provided no actual proof that any knowledge, let alone the midicholorian count data, was ever lost until after the Jedi Temple was destroyed.

My opponent says that I must prove that technology advanced to win my point. Ok, well that's fairly simple. Just look at the improved droid armies, the improved star fighters and battle ships. When in history has technology retrogressed over time? As for the Star Forge, Revan didn't build it; he simply found it because Revan and Malak accidentally found the first map. Even though I don't really need to provide technology that was better than the Star Forge (because it's not relevant to who would win a one on one fight) I will. The Death Star could destroy the Star Forge in one shot. Granted, Vader's suit did have metal in it. I can't argue that. However if you read my source from the first round, you'll see that the metal part is only the outer shell. The parts that actually touch him are plastoid, and thus would not easily conduct the electricity to Vader himself.

In conclusion, there is no proof that important knowledge was lost from Revan's time to Vader's time. It is irrelevant that Vader was outranked by one civilian. Furthermore, the Emperor was afraid of Vader and Revan's minions did all of his real work. Again, because of the archives Vader would have more access to force knowledge than Revan. As for my case, Vader was one of the best fighters of his time, in a time of many great names. However you can't really make that argument for Revan, since he is never mentioned again after then game. Vader was always prepared and adapted quickly and frequently took on more people than Revan did. Once again, Vader had the highest midicholorian count to date (which would include Revan), thus he had a better connection to the force. Finally, the technology in Vader's suit was far superior to Revan's cloak, and thus gives Vader a very distinct advantage. For all of these reasons I urge you to vote pro. Thank you to the voters and to logical-master for this debate.
Debate Round No. 3
27 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Sucks that you can't vote on this debate, eh josh? :D
Posted by SchinkBR 9 years ago
SchinkBR
to bad no one is voting
Posted by SchinkBR 9 years ago
SchinkBR
Idk, maybe you ran out of characters. Good debate though
Posted by Logical-Master 9 years ago
Logical-Master
Last part got cut off (for who knows what). What I was saying is that Revan would be the victor, thus VOTE CON.

Oh yeah and thanks for the debate. :D
Posted by SchinkBR 9 years ago
SchinkBR
stupid new game ruining part of my case...why couldn't it come out a week later
Posted by CiRrO 9 years ago
CiRrO
Dark Side ending was so much better.
Posted by Logical-Master 9 years ago
Logical-Master
There is canonical ending to the game and that is Revan (who is male, romantically involved with Bastilla) is on the Light side and has gone off to the Outer Rim.
Posted by Logical-Master 9 years ago
Logical-Master
"Oh. I was under the assumption we were talking about the Sith's at their peaks."

Well at least for Revan anyway. SchinkBR seems interested in discussing both incarnation of Vader though, but I suppose I don't mind.
Posted by Logical-Master 9 years ago
Logical-Master
"Oh, and remember, Revan was almost defeated by mere jedi and Bastila. That doesn't shoe much strength."

Since when? In the cutscene, it shows Bastilla and the other Jedi Knights prepared to square off against Revan, only to be interrupted by Malak's betrayal (using his ship to blast Revan's).
Posted by Logical-Master 9 years ago
Logical-Master
"Nerds..."

Where?!?! :O

"I think this is completely different, only because in the aforementioned scenario, it's the light side of the force against the dark side of the force, whereas the debate and the other mentioned scenario is dark vs dark."

Canonically, Revan is actually on the light side. "Darth Revan" is just the title he is known by the most. By no means do I mean when he was evil.
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Vote Placed by Zero 9 years ago
Zero
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Vote Placed by Zerosmelt 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by Logical-Master 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by SchinkBR 9 years ago
SchinkBR
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