The Instigator
funnybrad333
Pro (for)
Losing
7 Points
The Contender
Harlan
Con (against)
Winning
23 Points

RESOLVED: In matters of collecting military intelligence, the ends justify the means.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/23/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,178 times Debate No: 4158
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (7)

 

funnybrad333

Pro

In the world we live in, any country could be annihilated in less than an hour. Nuclear warfare, along with terrorism, are becoming quite problematic. Without the knowledge of where and when these attacks take place, innocent people will die. The government needs to actively seek this information no matter the route taken. This is why military espionage should be used, no matter the means taken.

I await your response...
Harlan

Con

Harlan forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 1
funnybrad333

Pro

Because of my opponent's forfeit, I extend all of my arguments from round 1.

Again, I await your response...
Harlan

Con

I would like to begin by apologizing for forfeiting the last round. I was on a camping trip, and was unable to post.

This debate is one of ethics. PRO states that it is an irrevocable principle that just so long as the cause is noble, anything is justified in getting military information. As CON, I simply must prove that at least one scenario does not follow this principle, and I will win.

For this debate we will assume that there is such a thing as "benignity". Also, making it trickier for me, we must only stick with scenarios in which the cause is benign.

In order to maintain any sense of Humanity; of morality; of good and bad, we must follow a doctrine of Human rights. I am not here asserting what these Human may be, or even that it is fundamental what they may be. I am only saying that theoretically there have to be some Human rights that we accept.

These rights are meaningless if we make exceptions. For them to be Human rights in the first place, they must be considered to be fundamental and unbreakable; not even in warfare; not even to mortal enemies. It is supposed to transcend this nation of people vs. this nation of people…it applies to all HUMANS, hence: "Human rights". They lose all meaning when we start thinking of them as conditional.

…And so I assert that it is unethical for the military to break said theoretical human rights, no matter the cause; no matter how noble. We can not let fundamental, natural human rights be clouded by idealism.

Your argument largely revolves around the concept that the wellbeing of the masses trumps any possible argument against a military action.

To this I reply: we can not measure ethics in statistics. By this I mean, when discussing ethics, numbers and statistics are, in essence, meaningless. It is shameful to decide whether something was ethical or not based on numbers; numbers of casualties; number of wounded; number of survivors. To kill one to save the many is not moral because of numbers. The mere instance of killing innocent humans –no matter how many- make the whole act immoral, no matter the intentions. Morals must be treated as basic and fundamental, regardless of numbers and statistics. For a moral code that can be overridden by numbers is not a moral code at all; it has too many holes; too many exceptions; it becomes meaningless.

Though it may seem clich´┐Ż, very appropriate to summarize this is the well known saying: "two wrongs do not make a right".

So to prevent an immoral act by doing something immoral does not make any of it moral.

We live in an ugly world, but we must remember our humanity and morality.

-King Harlan the great
Debate Round No. 2
funnybrad333

Pro

funnybrad333 forfeited this round.
Harlan

Con

Well, I guess that makes us even. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and not assume that you were incapable of rebuttal. I will by default assume you were to busy, or something of the likes. If it is confirmed that my opponent did not forfiet out of lack of rebuttal, I should ask voters to not let this affect thier voting process.
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Harlan 8 years ago
Harlan
Im sorry, like I said, I was away all weekend. I stupidly accepted this debate while forgetting this fact. I have just returned from this trip and will now be able to participate in debate.org
Posted by funnybrad333 8 years ago
funnybrad333
Harlan, you have three hours remaining.... are you going to post your argument??
Posted by DrAlexander 8 years ago
DrAlexander
Hah, likewise.

Oh, by the way, if you haven't already noticed I accepted your imperialism debate, I'll try to make a post by this afternoon. Good luck!
Posted by funnybrad333 8 years ago
funnybrad333
""Interesting...
www.debate.org/?d=4132
Looks like we agree.
Good luck!""

Wow, I hope I don't steal too many concepts from your debate... :)
Posted by Harlan 8 years ago
Harlan
I could, if I wanted, slap up some half-assed argument for this, but I am feeling tired and lazy. Maybe well have this debate some other time, but, once more, I will not be able to post an argument this weekend...so...I guess I will have to forfiet. Feel free to start this debate again with someone else.
Posted by DrAlexander 8 years ago
DrAlexander
As well*.. please excuse my repitition. I'm awfully tired right now and I'm signing off. -..-
Posted by DrAlexander 8 years ago
DrAlexander
Nice choice, you really should take debate in High School next year, you'll grow intellectually and linguistically as well. Speech is also a good thing to do as well.
Posted by Harlan 8 years ago
Harlan
Im sorry sir, I can't say I do. My school doesn't really have any sort of debate things, except for a speech class, but by the time I learned that existed, it was too late. Im gonna do debate in high school, after the summer, though.
Posted by DrAlexander 8 years ago
DrAlexander
Harlan,
Do you participate in Lincoln-Douglass debate? Or any other form of debate at your school?
I was wondering because my team goes to UT at Austin every year, and I noticed you live in Austin. Personally, I am mostly an LDer.
Posted by Harlan 8 years ago
Harlan
Yeah...I accepted this debate while forgetting that I was about to go on a trip all weekend. Ill try to post my argument tonight. But keep in mind that I won't be able to post again till monday...so it would be kinda nice if you could time your post based on that. Sorry about that.
7 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
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rgb1110
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