RESOLVED: Scripture Alone Is Sufficient To Determine Faith & Morals
Debate Rounds (3)
Scripture: 66 books of the Bible
Alone: Needing Nothing Besides
Sufficient: Able To Obtain The End
Faith: What Is To Be Believed
Morals: How We are to Live
My proof is 2 Timothy 3:14-17. Should you decide to accept the debate, I will elaborate and argue more.
In the quote there exists the phrase "that from childhood you have known the sacred writings" (2 Timothy 3:15), since only the 39 books of the old testament existed at the time of the writing, and the old testament was the only thing being taught to children at that time, then we MUST infer from that he is speaking only of the old testament, and there-fore, not the additional 27 books of the New testament.
So either you premise is incorrect based on your statement of using the 66 books of the bible, and 2 Timothy 3:14-17, or, it was always intended to be a 'living document' meant to grow and change as man grows and changes.
Additionally, if you do believe in the 2 Timothy 3:15-17 is a hard fact, then how do you reconcile the atrocities attributed to God within the bible as moral acts?
"When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you may nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." Deuteronomy 7:1-2
"...do not leave alive anything that breaths. Completely destroy them...as the Lord your God has commanded you..." Deuteronomy 20:16
Killing on an innocent:
Genesis 38: 7-10 "And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also."
God displeasure with imperfect people:
Leviticus 21:16-23 "...Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;"
Death for forming a democracy:
Numbers 16:1-35 "Now Korah...and Dathan and Abiram...and On...rose up before Moses, with...250 princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown: And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD?...And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment...And it came to pass...that the ground clave asunder that was under them: And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the 250 men that offered incense."
Bible allows and regulates slavery:
Exodus 21:20-21 "When a man strikes his slave, male or female, and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money."
Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made."
Exodus 21:1-4: "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself."
Leviticus 25:44-46: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."
How can you pick and choose your bible passages to support and discard? No, based on the above I believe that you must look to the bible, out to society, and mostly inward for moral definition. Some things are immortallly immoral, homicide - the unlawful taking of another human life, this is a constant evil; but look at slavery. at the time of the bible it was an allowed and regulated social practice; but who now would say that the owning of another human person is a moral act? God gave us Free Will to increase our knowledge of the world, and more importantly, increase our knowledge of ourselves. To evolve our moral inner person, and in doing so increase our faith in God and mankind.
"sola scriptura:" Faith is to be based on the Bible alone. - I find this to be false.
Faith and morals must be made for a combination of the Bible, reason, church traditions and personal experience, each give a different weight and measurement but rounded to give a firm moral standing ground..
2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
My opponent is simply wrong about his above statement. The 39 books of the old testament were not the only books at the time of the writing of 2 Timothy 3:14-17 Because 2 Timothy was not the first NT Writing, the other NT writing were in existence at the time of this writing. This verse includes all scripture, including the scripture Paul was writing at that moment. The proof that scripture is sufficient for ones faith is in verse 17.
2 Timothy 3:17 KJV
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
With the scriptures the man of god is perfect (not sinless, but complete) unto ALL good works. He does not need any thing else to be complete, and furnished in all good works. He does not need the papacy or traditions. The scriptures are sufficient to all good works.
As far as his supposed and perceived "atrocities" are concerned, these do not discount the scriptures as sufficient for faith and morals, they only present perceived problems with the conclusion, they do not satisfy to negate the proposition. At best it provides is an undesirable conclusion to a position, but not proof that the position is wrong. I suggest that the cases that he has set forth are only perceived problems and not actual problems, but is not the issue at all, therefore do not need to be disproved as it relates to this debate.
Besides, by accepting scripture, specifically the 39 books of the Old Testament, as part of what should be used to determine faith and morals my opponent must accept these consequences as I do in these same issues. If he denys that he does, then he must deny the scriptures have any role in determining faith and morals. But he cannot do that as he as already accepted scripture as part of the determining factor.
"Faith and morals must be made for a combination of the Bible, reason, church traditions and personal experience, each give a different weight and measurement but rounded to give a firm moral standing ground.."
Besides, if you argue that reason, church traditions and personal experience must determine as well as the bible, then he must strengthen his case for genocide and killing the innocent. Obviously no church tradition, or reason, or personal experience of the Catholic church prevented them form the Inquisition. If you include those the case for atrocities only gets stronger. This is fair game, because he admitted accepting the bible as well as introducing the traditions of the church.
I look forward to the rest of this debate.
To My Honorable Opponent:
HappilyMarried forfeited this round.
HappilyMarried forfeited this round.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by DoctrinallyCorrect 8 years ago
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