The Instigator
hayhen13
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Betrayed
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Raising the Minimum Wage

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/3/2015 Category: Economics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 546 times Debate No: 67786
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (3)
Votes (0)

 

hayhen13

Pro

My side will be Pro, I will be arguing that the minimum wage should be risen. My opponent will be arguing that it shouldn't be risen. First round will be acceptence, a forfeit is an automatic loss. Good luck!
Betrayed

Con

I assume first round is acceptance and I agree to debate you. Lets have some fun.
Debate Round No. 1
hayhen13

Pro


Thank you for accepting this debate, I look forward to its outcome.


Arguments:


Helps Economy-


If businesses raise the minimum wage, then employees will be gaining more money. When a consumer has more money, that consumer will have more money to spend, and spend that money on buisnesses. When they do this, the businesses have more money, and more money flows through the economy and when this happens… a better economy!


Employment-


When businesses are gaining more money because the consumers have more money, they are able to hire more employees. Businesses will be much more likely to hire more employees to keep up with the increased sales, and less likely to lay-off employees.


Poverty-


According to the Huffington Post, raising the minimum wage to $10.10 an hour will lift nearly 5 million people out of poverty. That would reduce the ranks of the nation's poor by 6.8 million. Basically, by increasing the minimum wage, we will bring millions upon millions of Americans out of poverty.


Conclusion:


Raising the minimum wage will benefit families across America and help our economy get back on its feet. I wish my opponent the best of luck, thank you!


http://wheniwork.com...


http://www.huffingtonpost.com...


http://www.raisetheminimumwage.com...


Betrayed

Con

http://www.forbes.com...

http://www.forbes.com...

http://www.forbes.com...

http://www.npr.org...

Here's the main thing for minimum wage. Many people for it can't seem to agree on how much it should be. Also its a false problem to begin with. The majority of people in those jobs are teens. They should not be considered part of the poor. It's common knowledge and fact that the more employees you have that less money they give. All jobs should increase based on need. Minimum wage jobs are things everyone could do. Here's a comparison.

1) In-and-Out Burger had 290 locations across 5 states, and around 18000 employees as of April 2013. They usually operate around 14 hours a day.

2) Moo Cluck Moo owns 2 locations exclusively in Michigan (according to its website), and is only open 10 hours a day on any given day.

3) McDonald's owns 35000 locations across the entire world, employs 1.7 million people across their various franchised restaurants, and tends to operate their restaurants around 18 hours a day.
Moo Cluck Moo: 2 locations, very few workers, $15 an hour
In-And-Out: 290 locations, 18,000 workers, $10.50 an hour (much less)
McDonald's: 35k locations, 1.7 million workers, minimum wage (less still)
When you have more locations and have more employees, you can't afford to pay them as well. It's common sense and is a fact of life.

Forcing companies to raise the minimum wage, will make people hire less, which means less people that are working, and less people paying taxes.

In-And-Out Burger's lowest costing burger is $1.90, and Moo Cluck Moo's burgers cost $3.79 minimum. And neither of those companies has nearly the amount of overhead and corporate nonsense to deal with that McDonald's has. Given the various extra factors that a corporation like McDonald's has to deal with (things that a purely-based-in-the-USA chain doesn't), it would be perfectly reasonable to presume that a single cheeseburger at McDonald's would go north of $2 if the minimum wage doubles. And since no one would go for that, the alternative is that they close a lot of locations and fire a lot of workers.

White Castle stated if it went up to 15 dollars they'd have to close half their locations and fire about as many workers to make it work and they're much smaller than McDonald's, so you could probably presume similar numbers for McDonald's if not worse. Which means that about 800k people could potentially lose their jobs.

It is also ridiculous, because the government has been constantly increasing it very gradually. So it already is being raised, I assume you going for the 15 dollar thing. And this is my argument against it.

It won't help the poor, because they're on welfare and don't have jobs to begin with. Majority of minimum wage workers are teenagers. No one will ever be satisfied with how much money it is, the people will want more money no matter what. So doing it to please people is pointless. Minimum wage jobs can be done by everyone, and companies cannot afford and will not bother to afford the same amount of employees with double the cost. They'll just make their small amount of employees work more hours and give them more work making it harder for people with jobs.
It already is increasing, like all jobs should be when cost of living rises. I know it sounds cool to the average college student saying "burger king should pay my part time work as much as a mechanic or more than a nurse". But it's not practical, it lacks common sense and it will not help job growth, it will not help the economy.

http://www.bestmedicaldegrees.com... And when things like this are a thing. I hate to say it but minimum wage jobs should not pay more then far more important jobs.

http://www.theworkbuzz.com... All these jobs are harder than burger flipping or doing math on a cash register. And require actual skills that could not be learned by every teen in under a week.

Your four arguments/statements
1. Companies will just cut jobs and employees and make them work longer hours and do more. It will also increase it's costs. Just because people have more money working at the job does not equal, it benefiting. The business does not have more money, how would that work?

http://nrn.com...

2. That is so backwards. People have made statements about having to cut employees. This statement is absolutely false.

http://wheniwork.com... <---Might want to re-read that one before telling me, more people will get jobs.

Even your own links, which is above. Talk about pros and cons. Cons being more layoffs and fewer hiring. You presented links and contradicted your own facts.

3. The minimum wage was not meant to be a living wage...And people who make 10 now, do you think they'll accept what they're making? Like mcdonalds/fast food supervisors, they make 10 now. They will want raises, then the people who have that will want raises. Where does it stop?

http://www.breitbart.com...

This is an article about huffing post talking about McDonald wages, and backtracking saying they were way off. This also points out their will be layoffs and major price increases. If also already pointed out over 20 percent of people who work minimum wage jobs are teenagers and they should not count as the poor.

https://www.youtube.com...

This is supposedly estimating
900,000 people would go out of poverty.
And 500,000 would have no jobs.
So some people are making 2 bucks more every hour they work, and most likely get their hours cut to compensate the rise. So in reality they probably won't get that much more money.
And half a million were go further into poverty, and have no money what so ever to feed themselves or families.
It's more likely those numbers are far worse than that.

This is something you really want?

In my own conclusion: It's getting raised all the time, everyone still is increasing it, and no one will ever be happy with what they get, raising it to 15 or 12 or whatever trying to increase it too much will do far more harm then good.
Debate Round No. 2
hayhen13

Pro

Thank you for that argument Con.

Rebuttal:

1. “Many people for it can't seem to agree on how much it should be. Also its a false problem to begin with. The majority of people in those jobs are teens. They should not be considered part of the poor. It's common knowledge and fact that the more employees you have that less money they give. All jobs should increase based on need. Minimum wage jobs are things everyone could do. Here's a comparison.”

I want to focus on the teen part of Con’s argument for right now. You say the majority of minimum wage jobs are worked by teenagers. Yet you go on to say in your argument;

“If also already pointed out over 20 percent of people who work minimum wage jobs are teenagers and they should not count as the poor.”

Con contradicts himself very greatly. For he says that for every five minimum wage workers, only one of them is a teenager. 80% of minimum wage workers are not teenagers. Con then goes on to say that this is the majority, humongous contradiction there.

They are also not considered part of the poor. This is a false assumption; the surveys look at all of the minimum wage workers and see how many of them are in poverty. Not the teenagers, if the teenagers live in a family which is in poverty, they will count them. But this is a wild assumption.

2. “No one will ever be satisfied with how much money it is, the people will want more money no matter what. So doing it to please people is pointless. Minimum wage jobs can be done by everyone, and companies cannot afford and will not bother to afford the same amount of employees with double the cost. They'll just make their small amount of employees work more hours and give them more work making it harder for people with jobs.”

Well that’s an arrogant assumption that families living off of minimum wage jobs are greedy and ‘want more money no matter what.’ This is just an atrocious opinion that cannot be argued on since it is an opinion.

Minimum wage jobs cannot be done by everyone, I am 13 years old and in Junior High. I cannot go work at McDonalds at a minimum wage job, this is false.

The only reasonable point made in this argument is that businesses will make employees work longer. I feel like you never read any of my argument, if you would have you would have noticed that businesses will hire more employees to keep up with increased sales. Your argument can be rebutted with my arguments.

http://wheniwork.com...... <---Might want to re-read that one before telling me, more people will get jobs.

Even your own links, which is above. Talk about pros and cons. Cons being more layoffs and fewer hiring. You presented links and contradicted your own facts.”

I admit that I looked at a website that showed both sides of the argument. Is that so bad? I assume that you only looked at websites that supported your position, which is biased. Also if you would have looked at the website, it had increased employment as a pro. So I did not contradict myself, looking at a website that has both sides of the story is not contradicting one’s self.

“The minimum wage was not meant to be a living wage...And people who make 10 now, do you think they'll accept what they're making? Like mcdonalds/fast food supervisors, they make 10 now. They will want raises, then the people who have that will want raises. Where does it stop?”

This again makes the assumption that minimum wage workers are greedy, same argument which I have already defeated.

“This is supposedly estimating
900,000 people would go out of poverty.
And 500,000 would have no jobs.
So some people are making 2 bucks more every hour they work, and most likely get their hours cut to compensate the rise. So in reality they probably won't get that much more money.
And half a million were go further into poverty, and have no money what so ever to feed themselves or families.
It's more likely those numbers are far worse than that.”

Con then comes up with different numbers. I already had numbers and percentages from reliable resources, then my opponent tries to rebut this with different numbers. Confusing.

Conclusion:

Thank you, back to Con.

Betrayed

Con

Disclaimer: I apologize in advance to 'pro'. And the readers. I guess neither of us win any points for conduct...

http://www.heritage.org...
This article actually goes further and points out 36% percent are teenagers earn minimum wage. 1/3 isn't nothing to sneeze at. Also it's the highest amount. It's one of the highest amount is the majority all other age groups don't factor. College age may be a bit higher or around the same depending on the source. But many college kids are living at home. So once again they should not fit into poverty. All other groups are smaller than 20 percent. Its not contradicting anything. So if that's all you have your misguided.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org...
College kids living with their parents and teenagers do not fit into poverty line. And more than likely make a much larger majority if you add the two numbers. College kids working minimum wage jobs have gone up 71%. And over a third live at their parents.

Your debating teenagers should be in the poverty line even if they live with rich parents? They don't pay income taxes or most taxes which is how you are determined to be poor, middle class. etc.

http://www.forbes.com...
This article says, 1.1 percent of workers in minimum wage are over twenty five. Case in point. And also agrees with my other article 36% percent teens. 55% college kids.
Quote from article:
"63 percent of workers who earn less than $9.50 per hour (well over the minimum wage of $7.25) are the second or third earner in their family and 43 percent of these workers live in households that earn over $50,000 per year"
So once again. No, thinking poor teens, automatically mean poor family is completely misguided and wrong.

QUOTE 2. "Well that"s an arrogant assumption that families living off of minimum wage jobs are greedy and "want more money no matter what." This is just an atrocious opinion that cannot be argued on since it is an opinion." QUOTE
Not being able to argue means you have absolutely nothing to debate. So you don't have any counter points and that is not how one wins a debate. But since I have to bring it up...
http://www.ctdol.state.ct.us...
Your saying people aren't going to ask for increases when it is increased. I've already proved that wrong. Because...
Minimum wage of 2009 8.00
Minimum wage of 2010 8.25
Minimum wage of 2014 8.70
Minimum wage of 2015 9.15
It goes up every year, people are always debating wanting a higher minimum wage. It's already going up, and people are still not satisfied. So I proved your statement, flat out slanderous and incorrect. People are greedy its a damn scientific fact. I'm saying it's a non-problem and increasing it by too much is only causing more problems for the teen just trying to get some job experience.

http://dailysignal.com... This is another article pointing out, the price hikes have hurt workers.

QUOTE:
Minimum wage jobs cannot be done by everyone, I am 13 years old and in Junior High. I cannot go work at McDonald's at a minimum wage job, this is false.
The only reasonable point made in this argument is that businesses will make employees work longer. I feel like you never read any of my argument, if you would have you would have noticed that businesses will hire more employees to keep up with increased sales. Your argument can be rebutted with my arguments.
I admit that I looked at a website that showed both sides of the argument. Is that so bad? I assume that you only looked at websites that supported your position, which is biased. Also if you would have looked at the website, it had increased employment as a pro. So I did not contradict myself, looking at a website that has both sides of the story is not contradicting one"s self." QUOTE.

You completely, absolutely missed my point! everyone can do that job when they become old enough for hiring! Even then a 13 year old SHOULD be able to flip a burger, do basic math, and put things in a fryer and basic cleaning. Denying it is ridiculous. You also get trained once your hired in. Other jobs you have to already know most of what your doing or you'll be fired very quickly.

"You can create your own opinion but you can't create your own fact." My many links, point out the facts, its not biased if it's true. Your ad hominem attacks, claiming my links are wrong most likely not looking at any of them, gets you nowhere and would discredit you in any real debate. Your own link contradicted over a fourth of your original argument. So you have very little left if your not denying it.

QUOTE "I feel like you never read any of my argument, if you would have you would have noticed that businesses will hire more employees to keep up with increased sales. Your argument can be rebutted with my arguments." QUOTE

Your argument was literally was 150 words, trust me I read it all. The cat in the hat has more words in it and that's a doctor suess book. It was as bare bones as a complex debate could get. Your OWN link AGAIN shows jobs will be lost. THEY WON'T HIRE MORE, THEY WILL FIRE MORE. You have to actually counter or prove anything wrong. In fact you own link is STILL proving you wrong. My link was always correct. My only issue was not bringing up just how tiny the problem truly was which I corrected.

Quote
This again makes the assumption that minimum wage workers are greedy, same argument which I have already defeated.
Quote

You've countered nothing, the point in having another round is too bring up new facts and links that help proof those facts. It's common sense. Would you rather work as sewage cleaner or a walmart greeter, both have the same pay. Don't bother lying...and in a more accurate statement.
People who work a cash register want 15 for the minimum wage.
A small engine machine makes that. Why would anyone want to work on dirty engines, when they could do basic math for the same price...You spin that and argue it, I'd love to see it.

Quote
Con then comes up with different numbers. I already had numbers and percentages from reliable resources, then my opponent tries to rebut this with different numbers. Confusing.
Quote.

These number come from my own articles, ones you most clearly did not read, they're not different from what I described. It came from the NEWS. It was broadcasted on t.v. And I already posted a link discrediting huffintongpost.

In Conclusion:
You gave no added information. At all, making me having to repeat everything I said.
You didn't change the fact your own link proved YOU COMPLETELY WRONG.
You countered absolutely nothing I said.
Littered your argument with constant ad hominem attacks. 'My links are biased, I can't read 100 words, etc etc"
And you officially have pissed me off and wasted my time.
Debate Round No. 3
hayhen13

Pro

In my opinion,this debate has gotten to heated to continue. Both sides have stated their main arguments, and sadly this debate has swayed more the vicious side of the spectrum. This is not a forfeit, but I think it has become too heated to continue. I'm sorry, but I'd like to end this debate in a draw/tie so that nobody loses as a result. I hold my position in that this is the best course of action and I hope my opponent would agree on his.
Betrayed

Con

I understand, I do apologize for things getting heated, and I hope you take nothing I said personally. I wish I could edit maybe one of two sentences of my second argument. But many of my points still stand. I don't think I would of been able to debate economics and politics effectively as a teen, since they just don't have any experience.

You did not display any real arguments in your second post only, saying your first post was all you need, and that is not how a debate works. I used a link to discredit one link, as they backtrack on many of their claims all the time. And your one link which makes most of what you say to be a proven falsehood. And they only thing you did to counter it was call my links bias without reading a single one of them and say I just didn't read your post. I did, how would I be able to point out your link discredits you if I didn't click on your links and read your stuff. Please go through my information and links, I promise to not use any further attacks. I'm just trying to have an actual legit debate.

I won't post any more on this round, I encourage pro to do the last round.
Debate Round No. 4
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Ozzyhead 1 year ago
Ozzyhead
I wanna throw out to con that minimum wage jobs are not always easy compared to higher wages. In fact lots know this and say working minimum wage is paying your dues. You've worked hard enough to not have to work as hard anymore. I know people who were apart of food service and they know it's a harder job than an office job that's for sure. Food service is below minimum wage sometimes too. And after working fast food myself, I'd never wish for that upon my worst enemy and have never meant that expression more than I do now
Posted by hayhen13 1 year ago
hayhen13
Haha, thanx, its alright :)
Posted by Betrayed 1 year ago
Betrayed
Thought we had one more round. As I said, I apologize for my harshness and hope you have a good day/night wherever you live.
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