The Instigator
bloodsnhall
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
feverish
Con (against)
Winning
15 Points

Rap vs Metal

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
feverish
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/15/2011 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 5,150 times Debate No: 15383
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (4)

 

bloodsnhall

Pro

I have been raising questions about how music influences our youth and how it effects us psychologically. So, I would like to debate that Rap is a bigger motivator for violence, drug abuse, and sex crimes then Heavy Metal in the US.
feverish

Con

Ooh, I'm such a sucker for these anti-rap debates, I just couldn't resist this one, even with the 24 hour rounds.

Many thanks to my opponent for the opportunity to debate.

It seems from the initial post, that the resolution Pro has in mind is: "Rap is a bigger motivator for violence, drug abuse, and sex crimes then Heavy Metal in the US."

I am assuming that "rap" refers to the musical aspects of hip hop culture. http://en.wikipedia.org... http://en.wikipedia.org... http://en.wikipedia.org...

I am happy to attempt to negate this.

I await some argumentation, notably Pro firstly has the burden of proving that any genre of music can be a "motivator" for such activity.

Thank you.
Debate Round No. 1
bloodsnhall

Pro

Thank you feverish for joining the debate.

Rap and hip hop are not easily defined here in the US and both have extremely different cultures and followers from my perspective. I know some people would define hip hop as a cultural movement while rap is just a style of that movement or genre, but I disagree. It is my opinion that hip hop and rap have evolved into two separate genres in every aspect from fashion to psyche. So I would also like to propose that rap and hip hop are no longer one in the same and have evolved into separate genres and cultures since the early years of hip hop from Afrika Bambaataa to 2live crew.

On a off note this is going to be interesting since my opponent in from the UK and I am from the US. So, it will be Interesting to see how our views differ being from different countries and how we interpret these genres from different environments, cultures, and lifestyles.

I would like to start with the elements of rap and hip hop before going into the original debate between Rap and Metal because I feel that Hip Hop and rap are two different genres of music with similarity's like pop and R&B. The lyrics in Rap have very little substance and mainly relate to hardships, violence, sexual content, explicit language, immaturity were as Hip Hop deals with evolving spiritually, metaphysically, unique dancing, and obtains much more intellectual thought and interpersonal problem solving. I know that some Hip Hop artists avoid being described as Rappers due to the nature of actions represented by the Rap culture. Also I can name countless hits done by Original artists that have been sampled, stole, or bit off of by the Rap genre were as hip hop artist feel that it interferes with the integrating of their music because they are more in tune with music theory and the creation of a unique sound whether it be instrumental, digital audio, or midi sequenced. Some of the ways you can identify the deference between Rap and hip Hop followers: Lyrics, fashion, attitude, grammar, intellectual thought, artistic credibility, individuality, the creation of a original piece, insightful lyrics, dance, and most evident is the constant reiteration of the same idea, song, concept revisited over and over again. Here in the US there are hoppers and gangsters each listening to their own styles of music and it is greatly evident that these two cultures are completely different. When walking down the streets of Los Angeles you can identify one from the other very easily, I can tell if a person listens to rap or hip hop and I can also tell if the person is into mainstream or underground forms of either by their attitudes, appearance, and attire.

If we can agree on my representation of Rap and Hip Hop it would make a world of difference in how I debate this issue, but if we can not and you find that there are no differences between the two I will have to reevaluate my argument to make a stronger case in my behalf. So, I am not gong to make any agrument on the Rap and metal issue until the next round.
Sorry, if this takes us elsewhere on the subject but, distinguishing whether or not rap and hip hop are different makes an enormous difference on how I will continue this debate.
feverish

Con

Thanks bloodsnhall.

Fair enough, I will accept Pro's distinction between real hip hop and commercial, predominantly negative rap, despite how much of a misuse of terms I may feel such a distinction to be. It is good to see that Pro acknowledges the positive aspects of true hip hop culture.

Obviously this gives my opponent the opportunity to make a stronger case than if we were including conscious, more positive hip hop, however he still has a lot of work to do with just one round of debating left.

I am a little puzzled though by his statements in the comments section referring to the meat of the debate. While the comments should not be considered as part of the actual debate, Pro's comments about what we are arguing need addressing here.

Pro: I feel proving that any music genre is a motivator for any crime is irrelevant and that Con misunderstood what's up for debate. I am stating that RAP is a BIGGER motivator to crimanal activity then METAL.

This seems somewhat incoherent to me. Before we can establish whether one genre of music is a BIGGER motivator than another, we must first ascertain whether music can ever be a motivator in this way. This is very relevant indeed.

Pro seems to be making the assumption that music motivates people to commit crimes, which I don't think is something we can take for granted. To uphold his resolution, Pro really needs to provide evidence of this.

Pro: I am not stating that people who listen to metal don't commit crimes. I thought I stated that perfectly clear in round 1.

?
I don't believe I implied that you were stating such a thing, and I don't see any reference to it in your round 1 either.

Pro: Also to state that no crime has ever been commited because of music is false and I can prove that with one name Charles Manson.

The name alone hardy qualifies as proof for the premise. Manson was/is a very mentally unstable individual who had his own motivations for the acts he and his followers committed. The fact that he interpreted certain songs as supporting his views in no way establishes that the songs themselves motivated him to perform atrocities. I think it is probable that Manson would have acted in a similar way, whatever tunes he was blasting on his stereo.

Pro: I have also experienced music that has motavated people to commit hate crimes "black and white". anyways

This type of anecdotal information is absolutely worthless in terms of proving something in the context of a debate.

Pro: either way it is besides the point.

On the contrary, it is fundamental to the debate at hand. Until Pro can prove that music motivates people to commit crimes and abuse drugs, his arguments are mere conjecture. This is the premise that my opponent's case rests on and I strongly dispute it.

Thank you.



Debate Round No. 2
bloodsnhall

Pro

Fair enough, first I will address your concerns about my comments. I made a mistake and was following a format on someone Else's debate looking back now it was a poor decision and from now on all related material I address on this subject will be posted here, my apologies. I would also like to thank con for understanding the differences between rap and Hip hop and also give me a chance to make a good debate. I will provide proof that Music first influences and motivates people to commit crimes. I would also like to make clear that I am fully aware of people's rationality and state of mental health factors into these individuals who are capable of violent crimes. Again, people who are committing violent crimes and using narcotics are not rational thinkers and it maybe that several if not more factors are responsible for motivating these individuals into committing crimes, drug abuse could make a person delusional allowing them to take a song out of context and give them more of a reason to commit a crime. I am personally motivated by music in many ways positively and negatively. I was thinking of so many different examples of this but one stands out clearly. In 1992 Los Angeles was heated over the police officers that were acquitted for the beating of Rodney King this sparked riots in Los Angeles and inspired many artist who were affected by their surroundings. A year before Rodney King's beating and the riots of Los Angeles in 1991 was Body Count's Cop Killer which was done by the RAP artist Ice T who found an interest in HEAVEY METAL that had a huge impact and influenced many people to riot and loot the streets of Los Angeles. Ice Cube produced an album called Death Certificate on that album was a song about a little girl Latasha Harlins that had been shot by a Korean store owner this song motivated many black civilians to loot and beat Koreans who lived in Los Angeles Area. 1992 Los Angeles riots in popular culture: http://en.wikipedia.org... I address this link to prove that musicians were using their songs to motivate people in the riots of Los Angeles in 1992 and that the riots motivated people to write songs that would influences more people into become followers in their beliefs. I was involved in criminal acts personally during a riot that broke out during a Rage Against the Machine concert which I am not ashamed of. Charles Manson is the most famous person I know who murdered due to a song he heard by the Beatles called helter skelter. http://en.wikipedia.org...
Now that I think I have proven that music helps people to act violently and irrationally I will try and rebute all the evidence I have supported that makes metal more violent then rap, this might shock and amaze yea. I would like to start by saying that both Rap and Metal are scrutinized by the religious but their distaste for metal by far outweighs their distaste for Rap because of some artist's anti-religious messages, beliefs, and content. I would like to make people aware of the bad reputation that these people have given to these forms of expression and the propaganda they spread to discredit both rap and metal. I would also like to remind people that because of Rap being so mainstream here and generating so much revenue you don't normally here about rap related crimes unless the artist themselves are apart of it. I would like to make a list of artists who have been accused, convicted, or are some how related to murder in rap. I don't think there is anymore evidence that will support my claim truer then the actual lifestyle of the artists themselves. The messages artists are sending us are sometimes fantasy or imagination but, other times they are truths of that individuals nature. I would like to make the claim that there is a difference between someone who is writing a song built on their imagination and someone who's writing about their personal beliefs, their actions, or their lifestyles. I know for a fact that the friends I have that listen to rap are always packing a gun or weapon of some sort and are highly interested in violence and the friends that I have that listen to extreme forms of metal will be carrying a copy of world of warcraft and a deck of bakugan playing cards. I am not saying this just to win a debate here on debate.org it is real and true. I think anyone who has ever listened to rap can say that they have heard an artist claim he has killed a someone or would like to. A small list of rappers who have been convicted or acquitted of murder: 50 Cent, C-Murder, Snoop Dog, Brotha Lynch, Styles P, Jay-z, Biggie Smalls, Rakim, Tupac, Big daddy kane, Nas, Lil Wayne,Busta rhymes, Dr Dre, Big lurch, Gucci man to name a few. I would like con to provide a small list of American metal artist's that have been convicted or acquitted for murder to prove that American metal artist's are more violent.
feverish

Con

Thanks bloodsnhall for a really interesting debate.

I don't think any of Pro's examples provide proof that music itself motivates people to commit violent acts, (the references to sex crimes and drug abuse appear to have been dropped.) Music works on the emotions and I suppose in some isolated cases, it could be possible that music could provide a trigger, an emotional response that makes the listener more likely to act upon intentions they already have. But I believe in every case sited and every situation referred to, the motivation comes from sources external to the music itself.

Rioters and looters in Los Angeles in 1992 were primarily motivated by two things, the brutal beating of Rodney King and the opportunity to steal stuff. The idea that they attacked police because of Bodycount's Cop Killer, rather than because of the video of and the verdict awarded to those (despicable excuses for) police officers, stretches the bounds of believability for me.

Sure, musicians wrote many lyrics about the riots after they happened, but the idea that any piece of music, particularly Ice T's unconvincing attempts at Heavy Metal, inspired or instigated the riots is wholly unsubstantiated and quite far-fetched to say the least.

Ice Cube's Black Korea was in no way the motivation for animosity between black and Korean communities, it merely documented it, or as Pro's wiki source puts it "reflected the tensions".

The anecdotal and video evidence about riots associated with RATM is similarly unconvincing. I would posit that it's far more likely that these rioters were inspired by a mixture of generic, naive, teenage rebellious spirit and radical anarchic politics. RATM may have reflected these political themes in their music and even have helped to popularise them, but they certainly didn't create them. People lashed out at authority long before anarchist ideology was expressed in popular music, "The System" is the real motivation here.

As for Charles Manson, his motivation is simply his batsh!t craziness. There is no racial subtext to Helter Skelter, the fact that his delusional mind believed he had endorsement from Lennon & McCartney for his plans of instigating a race war, does not make the song his motivation.

The stuff about religious groups is interesting, but is no evidence that music motivates violence. Appealing to the authority of such a group would be equivalent to surmising that "god hates f@gs" because Westboro Baptist Church says so. It's interesting to note Pro referring to "the bad reputation that these people have given to these forms of expression and the propaganda they spread to discredit both rap and metal", when he himself seems to be giving credit to the reactionary notion that music poisons young minds.

I don't see how the activities of musicians themselves is particularly relevant to the debate and in any case the list of rappers who have supposedly been charged with murder is without corroboration and at face value seems palpably false. Biggie for example was arrested for harassment and drugs and weapons offences and was of course murdered himself, but was never charged with murder. http://en.wikipedia.org... I've never heard anything about murder charges for most of the artists on this list. Kane, Rakim, Dre, Nas and Jay-Z I'm almost certain have never been charged with murder, contrary to Pro's assertions. There's certainly nothing about it on their wiki pages. I'm not going to present a similarly incorrect list of Heavy Metal artists and as we're discussing the influences of music not the personal lives of artists, I don't think any more needs to be said about this.

Pro's assertions about the lifestyle of his own friends belongs in the category of anecdote and has as much significance for the debate as if I were to claim the converse, that I know loads of Heavy Metal fans who rape, kill and use drugs. I think it's pretty clear that most people who listen to the bastardised version of hip hop that Pro calls rap, are not actually gun toting gangsters. On this very web site with its predominantly middle class intellectual teenage demographic, there are plenty of rap fans, I'm pretty sure very few of them pack heat or gang bang.

There were gangsters and guns long before there was rap or heavy metal, the listening preferences of modern day gangsters is not really relevant, their motivations are the same as they have always been, greed and the lust for power over others.

I've really enjoyed this debate and hope that people vote according to the arguments presented and not their pre-conceived notions about the issue. Thanks again to blood and good luck in your future debates.
Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by bloodsnhall 4 years ago
bloodsnhall
Pro:
I have been raising questions about how music influences our youth and how it effects us psychologically. So, I would like to debate that Rap is a bigger motivator for violence, drug abuse, and sex crimes then Heavy Metal in the US.

READ THIS DEBATE OVER, I DID.

I failed to win a debate about american culture againt someone who doesn't live in the US and by voters who don't live in the U.S.. I am so glad to have come back to read this after forgetting about it for so long. I love it and i may have been upset a bit when first losing but I am so glad I did. I believe this proves how people are controlled by american culture even if you've never been here. Our entertainment has people brainwashed half way around the world to the point that they would defend a music genre created by the hatred amercians have for their own surroundings when they have never even stepped foot into the country. Way to go povlov! LOL
Posted by bloodsnhall 5 years ago
bloodsnhall
Feedback please: What source would you like to have seen that would have held more weight than my opponents opinion?
Posted by bloodsnhall 5 years ago
bloodsnhall
and I know my typing and grammar are terribly poor today
Posted by bloodsnhall 5 years ago
bloodsnhall
HAHA! I love how every person that has voted an this debate are not Americans. I would like to invited you feverish to a Rap concert here in Inglewood and you can see for yourself how it is. I would to see one American vote against me and I will be happy. Why is everyone who voted from Canada? what does Canada know about the rap culture here? to funny. So know one watched the video with rage against the machine where the political music caused a riot between the youth of LA and the cops? Might want to look at that. I am happy con is winning and my argument was poor but really not one American? this is a conspiracy! lol
Posted by bloodsnhall 5 years ago
bloodsnhall
well it was an ok first debate for me I guess. But, I had to spend most my time and space try to prove that music itself is a motavator and didn't actually get to talk about the other issues because first I made the rounds to short and second I didn't give us enough rounds to debate in.
Thanks feverish and good luck
Posted by bloodsnhall 5 years ago
bloodsnhall
Also to state that no crime has ever been commited because of music is false and I can prove that with one name Charles Manson. I have also experienced music that has motavated people to commit hate crimes "black and white". anyways, either way it is besides the point.
Posted by bloodsnhall 5 years ago
bloodsnhall
I feel proving that any music genre is a motivator for any crime is irrelevant and that Con misunderstood what's up for debate. I am stating that RAP is a BIGGER motivator to crimanal activity then METAL. I am not stating that people who listen to metal don't commit crimes. I thought I stated that perfectly clear in round 1.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Robikan 5 years ago
Robikan
bloodsnhallfeverishTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro failed to prove that it was the music itself that motivated crimes.
Vote Placed by tvellalott 5 years ago
tvellalott
bloodsnhallfeverishTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Excellent debate guys. Arguments to Con because his rebuttals were excellent. Spelling and Grammer to Con because his arguments were easier to read. Big blocks of text infuriate me.
Vote Placed by nonentity 5 years ago
nonentity
bloodsnhallfeverishTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro doesn't prove his point. He talks about how music infuences peeople but doesn't actually prove the resolution, nor do his sources support the resolution in anyway. Pro's spelling and grammar was a bit awkward as well.
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 5 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
bloodsnhallfeverishTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Unfortunate that it took so long to get starter, Con easily refuted the argument from Pro.