The Instigator
sidewinder
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Mister_Man
Con (against)
Winning
5 Points

Rape Culture in the United States Improperly blames Women for their Sexual Violation

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
Mister_Man
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/28/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,450 times Debate No: 65970
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (14)
Votes (1)

 

sidewinder

Pro

Rape culture in the United States disgust me and I wish to debate anyone who believes that it can be the victims fault in a rape situation. First round is for acceptance only.
Mister_Man

Con

Alright let's do this.

Before I begin, let's go over a couple things.

You have to prove (or give evidence that supports the idea) that rape culture exists in the first place - a handful of people being rude is not a valid representation of a society, or in your words, a "culture."

Considering it intelligent to ensure your own safety instead of relying on others not to be dangerous is reasonable. You need to dispute this, as people who fall into this "rape culture" you believe in think this.

I don't want to bring up too much, as you did say first round is acceptance. I'm just clarifying the rules.


So I accept! Good luck!
Debate Round No. 1
sidewinder

Pro

So lets start off on what rape culture is in the connotation that I am using it. Rape culture is the treatment as rape or sexual exploitation of a female by courts and media as at least partially the victims fault based on the clothes they wear or the way they were acting. This type of blame is really not seen in any other sort of crime and to be quite honest disgusts me. The idea of blaming a victim for a horrendous crime committed against them in any other case such as murder or mugging would be ridiculous. This I believe helps foster misogyny which is slowly going away in America but is still unfortunately a part of American society that still makes it into mainstream news reporting and politics. I am not saying that ever person in America agrees with this rape culture or even a majority of Americans but their is a vocal minority that blames women for crimes of unquestionable horror on them because "they were asking for it". To add insult to injury the use of the word rape is often used interchangeable with exploitation thus making a slang word out of the word rape.This is what rape culture is in my connotation.

Here are a variety of news articles and videos were women are being blamed for rape
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com... (between 19 seconds and 1 minute 10 seconds) (the rest is comedy)
https://www.youtube.com...
http://sandiegofreepress.org...

These are just a few examples of rape culture in american that is frankly disturbing In your counter argument you must disagree with this evidence that rape culture is in Americas media and politics good luck to your counter argument.
Mister_Man

Con

Thanks.

I'm going to try and take a new approach at debating and number our key points for organizational purposes before getting into the videos;

1. I can agree on this definition of rape culture. However you have to explain why you believe an investigation into what could have caused a crime to take place, need not be necessary in a court or any situation of the sort. I fail to see any media or court flat out blaming the woman (at least partially) for being raped. I've seen people say it could have possibly been avoided if certain precautions were taken, however nothing about it being fully or partially the victim's fault (yes, even in other scenarios, and I'll jump into that in my second point.)

2. This type of "blame" (it's taking all factors of the situation into consideration, something mandatory in any type of criminal investigation) is seen in other crimes. I'll give you a good example - In grade eleven, I was mugged by a couple guys when I got off school. My wallet was buttoned up safely in my back pocket. The police ended up being called and they paid me a visit at my home later that night. You know what one of the questions they asked me was? It was (word for word) "what were you wearing?" And you know what I didn't do? I didn't start throwing a hissy fit saying how dare you blame me, I didn't ask to be robbed! I answered with what I was wearing at the time. It's more than a reasonable question, considering a lot of gangs wear certain brands of clothing, and they could have mistaken me for being in a gang due to the type of clothes I was wearing. They didn't say "it's your fault you were mugged," they gave me ways to avoid future events such as this, including a list of "heaty" brands of clothing that attract negative attention, and who I should and shouldn't interact with, as well as different ways to present myself. I took all their information and advice in, and used it to avoid similar situations in the future. So why is it when it happens to a woman, it's all of a sudden victim blaming and anyone who asks a question is a part of a "rape culture"?

3. I like how you bring up mugging, however being robbed is not a part of "rape culture." Like I said before, nobody is blaming anyone. If I had my wallet on my shoulder while I was asleep in the middle of a field and someone walked by and took it, would it still be a crime? Absolutely. Would it still be punishable by law? Absolutely, someone took my personal property. People should not steal, just like they should not rape. However they do. And we have to accept this and take precautions to avoid horrible events like these.
Is there a difference between a girl being forcibly raped in an alley while she's screaming for help, and a drunk girl going back to a guy's house and being flirty and all that but saying "no" before anything really sexual happens, but the guy keeps going anyway? Well, both is rape. Both can be punishable by law. Both can be severely traumatizing for the girl. However... in the second scenario, the girl could have done a lot to avoid the situation. That's the only difference. Just like I could have taken extra precautions to avoid being mugged, the girl could have taken extra precautions to avoid being raped. Rape is a horrible thing, but to say "teach men not to rape instead of women to avoid rape" is absolutely absurd. There are some sick people in this world who are just that - sick. We need to avoid them, men included, and to blatantly ignore the fact that sick people exist in order to fulfil your feminist utopia is just wrong. Advising people in general to take extra precautions to avoid bad situations is not blaming them - it's giving them advice. Sure, some people will be jerks about it, but that's far from the majority of people. And the people who do actually say it is completely the girls fault for "leading him on" or something are also the types of people who we should try to avoid. Not everyone thinks the same, and forcing everyone to try and think the same just won't end well.

4. You're cherry picking the idea of "victim blaming." A cop asking a woman what she was wearing when she was raped is the same as a cop asking a guy what he was wearing when he was mugged. It's simple criminal investigation procedures. Cops aren't "blaming" anyone.

5. Misogyny is the hatred of women [1]. What makes you think the media hates women, or really anyone hates women, based on a simple question that's basically required in any type of criminal investigation?

6. "There is a vocal minority that blames women..." Yes. There is also a vocal minority that blames men for everything. However this isn't such a minority anymore... [2]

7. Meanings and context of words change and evolve over time. For example, "literally" now means the exact opposite of "literally"... as well as what "literally" originally was [3]. If I'm playing Call of Duty and I 720 no scope wallbang some camping noob, and I say "wow I raped him," am I advocating rape? Hell no. Do I support misogyny? Hell no. Do I think actual rape is a joke and shouldn't be taken seriously? ...Hell no. Can what I say be offensive? ...Hell yes. However people say offensive stuff all the time. It's up to the person hearing it to take offense to it. I don't take offense to blatant racism because I don't feel a need to get upset over someone feeling the need to personally insult me over nothing, so I'm sure others can do the same when there is zero intent to offend. I can guarantee you that next to nobody uses the word "rape" in a game like Call of Duty, or figuratively or just wherever, actually has malicious intent and hates women. That's ridiculous.


Let me fully respond to your videos next round, as I've run out of characters, hopefully that's okay.



Conclusion

No sensible person legitimately believes someone deserves to be raped. Nobody advocates rape, and the very few people who do are just that - very, very few. We cannot change sick people, so it's reasonable to avoid them.

Thanks for a good start to the debate, looking forward to a great next round!

[1] http://dictionary.reference.com...

[2] http://www.womenagainstmen.com...

[3] http://www.salon.com...

[4] https://www.youtube.com...

[5] http://www.jsonline.com...

Debate Round No. 2
sidewinder

Pro

OK so what I'm planning on doing in this section of the debate is offering a rebuttal for each of your points for the parts of the sections I do not agree with.

1. It is not necessarily fully blaming the victim in any courtroom or media but their are ridiculous questions or assumptions that are made because of the rape being treated differently to other crimes. For instance in the CNN interview I listed the man didn't really follow the details of the women's predicament such as the fact that she was drugged and vulnerable young women but instead asked why she didn't bit the persons penis off. I can not imagine this type of questions even enter a persons mind in any other media. For instance can you think of a mugging victim who was asked why he didn't fight back even if they were severely handicapped in someway. Another example was in another CNN report that I sited in my previous argument were a report felt bad for boys that had been convicted of rape. I find it hard to believe that the same type of sympathy would be handed down to a murder or child molester but because the women is partially at fault they feel bad for the "boys" who were just slaves to their emotions. This is what I see as rape culture in America were people find ways to at least partially blame the women for this horrific crime.
2. I believe you mistake my opinion for I have no problem that police question what the victim was wearing because it is part of a criminal investigation. However, I do have a problem with people on thought talks and media coverage that in anyway imply it is the victims fault they were raped. I don't care what she was wearing or how she was acting but rape is never ever the victims fault. It is equivocal to saying well you were mugged because you were wearing a suit or well the kid didn't fight back when he was being rapped so they wanted it. Yet this type of questioning is acceptable to bring up in a court of law as "evidence" and is often used as topics of debate on talk shows. This disgusts me and it is done in no other court of law. For instance it would be as if the defense attorney for the person who mugged you asked what clothes you were wearing because it was somehow your fault for being mugged because you were wearing "thug like" clothes. This would be unacceptable in a court of law for nearly ever instance except for rape and other forms of female victimization.
3. The first section of your part 3 of rape culture analyse I disproved in my part 2 of rape culture but your second part some what scares me. In your two scenarios you just described scare me for first of all your description that it is in some way is the women's fault just offends me for if I replace the word rape with murder your example would sound ridiculous. Yet because of rape culture it is somehow a women's fault when she goes out to have fun and ends up being raped by someone. To even think that it as the women's fault is ridiculous. Although it is possible that a women could have taken steps to avoid being raped so could a murder victim but you don't see any defense attorney or media pundit saying " well if he was not wearing a suit he wouldn't of been mugged" . This is exactly what rape culture is of the treatment of rape as a crime apart for although it is possible that if you looked less conspicuous you wouldn't have been mugged is a feasible argument it does not make its way into the court room be cause it blames the victim. However, and exception is rued for women because of the misogynistic traditions of America that have slowly abated but still have yet to leave America. I am also annoyed at the idea that your saying that women need to avoid rape because its strategy clearly are not working. Over 25% of women are sexually abuse in their lives and unless every single one of them was asking for it has to be more than just a problem that women have to deal with so if changing encouraging respectful treatment of women is to much for you I strongly recommend you tell that to your mother or any women you have in your life. Sure their will always be rape but is it not time in America that we stop blaming the victim and instead focus on prevention and education to hopefully reduce the percentage of women who have been sexually assaulted in their lives.
4. I already addressed the fact that I have no problem with police asking what the victim was wearing it is normal procedure. However, I am against having that be admissible in a court of law as it being the women's outfit was revealing thus it was not the mans fault. Yes I do know that this does not happen in courts but it might as well happening the powerful "court of opinion that the media is in charge of. For the second we blame women for a crime committed against them we are just as backward as countries like Iran that stone women to death for being rapped because it was her fault ( once again I realize this is hyperbole). If you don't believe me Google it.
5.Misogyny encompasses many different types of female hat including forms so subtle it can not be noticed. This is what I believe rape culture is, a traditional of blame directed toward females that has not been changed despite its sexist background and detriment toward the health of the female psyche.
6.In relation to your thoughts that anti-male feminism as a majority I strongly disagree and I recommend you read Emma Watson's eloquent address to the United Nation on what feminism is for she can explain it more eloquently than I ever could.
6. I am happy you do not actively support misogyny but the point I made about the word rape being embedded as other words like "gay" and "faggot" that are used with such ease you wounder why our society is acceptable of such guttural language.And while I have played plenty of video games and know exactly the type of language people you use and I would disagree that next to no one uses the word rape literally. For when I play with my female friends on video games they are often verbally abused by the chauvinistic behavior that you just said was so rare. It is also the reason why I had to brief my sister heavily on what people are like in the gaming world and while I love video games I find a large majority of the community desensitized to the words they use another part of what I consider rape culture. Also Battlefield is way better than call of duty but that is a debate for another time
7. Finally I'm curious on what unrealistic feminism utopia you think I plan to create
Conclusion. while no one actively promotes rape publicly rape is treated very differently by both the media and courts of America. This treatment is because of rape culture which creates a victim blaming environment that no one deserves.
Mister_Man

Con

Sounds good, thanks! First thing's first though, let me give my rebuttal for the videos, then I'll get to your responses.

Videos

In politics, or anywhere really, "getting raped" is a figure of speech, a term used to describe losing terribly, or being outmatched severely by an opponent. The USD is "raping" the CAD right now. No, I don't support women and men being actually raped because I say this, and nobody in their right mind should think I do, and nobody should think I advocate actual rape by using a term that describes a situation quite well. Definitions change over time, and to use this term to describe what the current situation is, if it's not a good one, makes sense, but unfortunately can offend some people.

Your second video - the Cosby stuff - is nowhere close to victim blaming. For starters, the woman claims this happened dozens of years ago, that she was drugged and drunk, and Crosby raped her. Now I do believe we should all take any type of allegations seriously, however if something like this pops up, it's next to impossible to prove. Lemon gave some tips on how to avoid rape, or fight your way out, and even if it's in a comedic way, they're more than valid ways to avoid this horrible situation.

Your third video holds a tiny bit of merit for your argument, but is easily disputed. For starters, the state issued the two men registered sex offenders. So right off the bat, we know the judicial system doesn't take rape lightly. That's probably the most important group of people to have an input, and they agree with yours and mine. Now the reporters - it's a controversial topic, it's what the media is supposed to report on - it generates views and discussion etc. It's also a really good idea for the media to discuss both sides. I can guarantee you that every other news story and article about this case will be against the aggressors, and look at that - the first video that popped up is how disgusting these men are and if you look at the comments, everyone is fuming with hatred toward these guys [4]. You gave me one video with 3 thumbs down and 0 thumbs up for women discussing the men's punishment, and I gave you a video with 1000+ thumbs up for an overall discussion about the situation, along with loads of comments filled with hatred toward the men involved. Nobody is advocating rape here, and nobody is blaming the girl.

Your final link consists of nine people. Eight from this millennium. However three are heavily religious, and don't even condone rape, as their quotes are basically saying it's a gift from God if you have a child in general. One guy is an idiot and thinks the female body can stop it, so there's another one off. One guy thinks the victim should go to the emergency room. There's no way to tell if he's being sarcastic or if he's trying to give advice, but I'm going to lean toward the idea that he's giving advice. Another religious person, who also was only a candidate for the Senate, so this shouldn't even be here to begin with. The newspaper incorrectly quoted Roger Rivard. He was talking about what his father told him about women consenting to sex then pleading rape, a legitimate case [5]. And finally, the last guy(s) is against abortion, unless it was due to rape or incest. So he's practically on your side, he just doesn't think growing fetuses should be killed because someone accidentally got pregnant, a legitimate point. So your "Republican Rape Advisory Chart" contains nine people who are idiots, against abortion, taken out of context, giving advice, religious who haven't even made it to office, or out-of-date. None of the current people in office support rape, and it would be ridiculous to assume they do based on this "chart" of false one-off quotes.

Now to your arguments!

1. Thanks for acknowledging that nobody is fully blaming the victim. So we can agree that "victim blaming" is a term used simply for shock value and doesn't really mean 100% victim blaming. You call these questions ridiculous, yet I call them reasonable. If someone is in a horrible situation, I'd also like to wonder why they didn't fight back. It's a perfectly reasonable question to ask why she didn't fight back. Like I said before, rape is extremely hard to prove, so if someone claims they were raped, but didn't fight back, I'd wonder why. If some guy started shoving me and ended up punching me and beating me up while I was lying on the ground, yet I never even attempted to push him away, I would consider it perfectly reasonable for anyone to ask why I didn't fight back, or defend myself. It's a reasonable question to ask. This guy does not advocate rape by asking a simple question. Being severely handicapped is different than having slightly slower reaction time. Someone under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol will have better motor skills than a severely handicapped person. I responded to the report you showed me about the women feeling "sympathy" above, and again, this is one report. There are dozens that don't show sympathy. I noticed I still have the links in my previous argument, so feel free to check out that YouTube link I provided up there, corresponding to the fourth source here.

2. I don't see any way that the media implies it's the woman's fault for wearing clothing. I can see how they can give the impression like "what did you expect" but they know that rapists are bad people and they know nobody deserves to be raped, so at the very most they're kind of saying "duh," considering the type of clothing the girl is wearing can be very provocative and can be known to attract people that are willing to do horrible things like rape. Can you give me an example of a judge ruling a lesser sentence to a rapist because the girl was wearing provocative clothing? Women should know that sick people exist and not dressing incredibly sexy may increase the chance of being raped, so not taking extra precautions to ensure your safety is foolish, however people shouldn't rape, so I agree with you.

3. Rape is forced sex. Consensual sex also exists. Murder is forced death. Consensual death does not exist (except in euthanasia in permitted countries) so of course you can't replace "rape" with "murder." I don't go to a girls' hotel room hoping she lets me murder her, I hope she lets me have sex with her. However I wouldn't force anything if she didn't want it. I said "the girl could have done a lot to avoid the situation," I never said it was her fault she was raped. Considering I don't have many characters left, I really want to get into that 25% figure, but I'll do that in the next round, considering we still have plenty of time.

4. Nobody says it's not the mans fault. I beg you to provide a reliable source (preferably video) of a court hearing where the man is found not guilty because of the woman's clothing, or anything like that.

5. "Including forms so subtle it can not be noticed." If nobody can notice someone hating another person, I don't think it's an issue. I agree on that definition, however if someone is "blaming" a woman for the actions of someone else, I strongly advise you to listen to their reasoning, and if they don't have reasoning, ignore them, as you've found one of the very few misogynistic people in the world.

6. Emma Watson said word for word, "women are still not treated equally in every part of the world" - nothing about men, except for the beginning of her speech to get views and people on her side. Although I agree that almost all of the rest of the world needs feminism, North America does not. Just because sometimes women are treated poorly does not mean men aren't treated poorly. Men and women are both treated poorly, however feminism only fights for women's rights, not men's.

7. Not everyone accepts language like this. If you can give me an example of abuse to your sister, I'd appreciate it.

8. Basically where everyone is equal and nobody is mean. That's unrealistic.


Sorry for the short end, ran out of characters. Thanks!
Debate Round No. 3
sidewinder

Pro

Firstly I'd like to offer context on why I find your rebuttals to the videos incorrect

1.In politics the term "getting raped" is not interchangeable with words like exploration because politics is not general discussion with friends. It is a eloquent description of your points through rhetorical techniques, pathos, logos, and ethos, sources and speaking skills. It is not a bar or video game lobby where people don't care what you say or how you say it. For these reasons I hold politics and debates in higher regard and thus have the expectation that slang should not be used in Journalism and politics. However the fact that his example shows how the public has become so desensitized to the word rape that they forget its true meaning and thus allow slang to be used in journalism. I am well aware that they are not attempting to perpetuate rape but the mere notion of using a word that means the sexual exploitation of a women as perfectly acceptable analogy is in my opinion is part of rape culture.

2. The second video is not about whether Bill Cosby is guilty of raping anyone or about blaming the victim completely for the crime perpetrated it is about the idea that it is socially acceptable to ask a women why, after being drugged by a man that she trusted did not bite his penis off. If you were to phrase that question to another crime to a mugging victim and say ask " hey you were drugged got mugged by the person that is employing you why did you not fight back". Not only would that question never happen but if it did it would be socially unacceptable. But rape culture grants a exception to rape and instead allows a margin were the victim could have done this that simply doesn't exist in other types of crimes. This is another faucet of rape culture.

3.The third video is not about whether they are register sex offenders which they now are or whether internet comments support the women that has been made a victim. It is about the fact that their is sympathy for the perpetrators of a heinous crime that have been convicted with definitive proof can e felt bad for because their just boys that didn't know what they wee doing. Do you really think that they would have been extended the same sympathy if they had the same irrefutable evidence for murder? Yet because of the crime being rape it is somehow at least partially the women's fault because her clothes or her behavior "made" the men do this heinous crime. This unfounded sympathy is yet another faucet of rape culture.

4. This map is to show how elected officials are misinformed and down right stupid on the case of rape. For as you have probably heard rape is rape their is no god given rape, their is no legitimate rape, nor any of the other examples that these officials use.Although I'm glad you think that these people are idiots these idiots are in charge of policy making of the entire country so unless I'm mistaken that means that their constituents to a certain degree agree with them. So to say that rape culture doesn't exist when it exists at the highest level of government is wrong no matter how you put it.

Now lets move on to your rebuttals

1.In this you correctly assert that I do not think the media or courts ever fully blame victim. However you incorrectly assert
on my opinion on questions to rape victims. I say again I have no problem with the police asking what the victim was wearing or how she was acting, they are conducting a criminal investigation an have the right to ask such questions. However I do not believe that lawyers or the judge has the right to ask why the women did not fight back not only is this wrong but recently has been made illegal under the "Rape Shield Law" that prevents cross examination of a victims past sexual behavior . However in my opinion this law does not go far enough and does not protect against cross examination of why a victim did not fight back, a examination that is forbidden other crimes. For evenif you don't think being asked why you didn't fight back proves nothing and only perpetuates blaming the victim for at least a portion of the crime. However, that dos not happen in muggings with rape and sexual assault being the only types of cases where this type of victim blaming is admissible in a court of law. This to sum it up is merely another faucet of rape culture.
http://www.legalmatch.com...

2. Media do not imply it is the women's fault entirely but they do imply that the situation may have been avoided if the victim took certain steps. This type of critique would not happen if the person got murdered or if they got mugged but are questioned in cases of rape. Also if you think its acceptable for rape to be a obvious inevitability if a women does not cover up ad not reveal her body in any way then we have more than rape culture we have a society as backwards as Iran. Thankfully these pundits are not quite as backward as you make them seem in your sentence "I can see how they can give the impression like "what did you expect" but they know that rapists are bad people and they know nobody deserves to be raped, so at the very most they're kind of saying "duh," considering the type of clothing the girl is wearing can be very provocative and can be known to attract people that are willing to do horrible things like rape". I have never asserted that a judge has given a lesser ruling to a rapist. However, our society does tend to partially blame the women at least partially or if not blame ask why women didn't do more to prevent it which is exactly what your 2. rebuttal is. Thus whether you like it or not you just incidentally perpetrated a faucet of rape culture by saying the victim could have done more to prevent the crime.

3.You are correct that i cannot replace death with rape in the context that you are using. However, i'm using the rape analogy to murder to show how rape is treated differently to other crimes and how a victim of rape can be blamed that they didn't fight back or wore provocative clothes. I have yet to see a murder or mugging case where this victim blaming has happened to the extent that rape can so I would challenge you to find a murder or mugging reported in which the victim could have done more to prevent it rather than offering sympathy and evidence to the case. This special treatment of rape in he media is rape culture.

4. I already addressed in my number 1. for this argument on how I think courts should deal with rape I never made the claim that woman's clothing affects a ruling but it does affect the questioning process in a court of law.

5.For the forms that are so subtle it can not be noticed in my opinion the most dangerous of discrimination for things like slavery and segregation was not seen as discrimination but instead as normal societal norms. This is the same in respect to rape culture wear the examples that I have given above that is done by the media is not deeply ingrained in the typical American psyche as acceptable that it often escapes noticed. That is what I think rape culture is dangerous because it is not the most obvious form of discrimination but it is still prevalent.

6.If you really think that Men and women are equal in America you are completely wrong. Women still earn 79 cents for every dollar a man earns they are more likely to be a victim of sexual crime and has their rights over their own body questioned even now. So to say that women are equal in America is a farce that hides the real problems that still plague American society.
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org...

7.Though it is true that not everyone accepts this behavior I recommend that you ask any girl gamer on how much they have been verbally abused

the world that you envision where equality is unrealistic is a pessimistic view for as the Dalai Lama said "we will never make peace with the outer world until we make peace with ourselves" and no more words
Mister_Man

Con

Thanks.


Incorrect Rebuttals

1. Just because some people choose to take offense to how others talk doesn't mean that the way they talk is necessarily offensive. The way these guys speak is not hateful, is not malicious or misogynistic, and is not meant to be offensive. They're expressing their views using a word(s) that unfortunately some people will decide to take offense to. Like I said before, words change and people use words in different ways over time, and the use of "rape" fits with how these guys are talking. They don't like watching women get violently attacked and raped against their will simply because they use a term that shares that meaning.

Just to show you that rape isn't only used for forced sexual intercourse, check out the dictionary.com definition - [1] - an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: "the rape of the countryside." This is one of the definitions, the other is of course forced sex. Are you going to ask the government and general civilizations to change the definition of a word back to it's original meaning to suit your argument?

People are desensitized by the word because most people understand the fact that words change over time, and rape is one of them. Nobody actually advocates extreme violence against a woman simply because they use a word in a completely different way.

2. It's a question. Asked by one person. If I agree that it's a stupid question, it's one scenario. If I disagree that it's a stupid question (which I do), doesn't mean I support rape or am even partially blaming the victim. It's a question. "Why didn't you bite his penis off? Oh, because you were drugged? Okay, next..."

3. Children are almost always excused for their actions, even if violent. When I was in grade 11, a group of kids jumped me because a girl told them to because she thought I was saying bad things about her behind her back. Not only did nothing happen to any of the kids or the girl, I actually sat down with the girl and the principal along with the liaison officer at my school, and both the cop and principal got me to shake her hand because "we're both young and aren't entirely sure of what we're doing." People try to take blame off children (or younger people) all the time. One incident of women questioning and being curious how the kids who raped this girl will survive is not rape culture. It's two people being idiots and passing this off because they're children. I agree that it's ridiculous but it doesn't perpetuate rape culture at all. It's a couple stupid people.

4. I dismissed each and every one of those "levels" of rape as either being misquotes, religious people against abortion (not rape), people not even in office, and more. None of them supported rape, half of them didn't even say anything on rape, but on the after processes.


More rebuttals

1. Questioning why a girl didn't fight back is more than a reasonable question, considering it could have been consensual sex, but the girl is trying to get at the guy for something. It's a reasonable question. Rape is different than any other crime because with any other crime, nobody is asking for a "softer version" of that crime. With rape, the "softer version" is just sex. You can have consensual sex, then non consensual sex. You can not have consensual burglary. Or assault. Or terrorism. Or murder. Or.... get the idea? Asking a question for this type of crime does not blame the victim. "Why did you not fight back?" =/= "It's your fault."

2. You are correct, the situation (just like any violent or criminal situation) could have been avoided if she had taken certain precautions. You just said it's reasonable to ask what the girl was wearing, and now you're saying it isn't reasonable to ask? If I get mugged while walking through an alley at 3am with brand new $350 Jordan's on, I wouldn't be surprised at all if anyone said something along the lines of "well here's what not to do next time..." So why is it a big deal if we say this to a victim of rape? It's a suggestion, it's literally someone helping the victim understand how to take safer precautions next time where the situation can possibly be avoided. Last time I checked there are sick people in the world and it makes sense to try and stay away from them. I'm not sure why you wouldn't.

Taken from Women Against Violence Against Women (because who gives a damn about men, right) - Rape Culture is "a complex set of beliefs that encourage male sexual aggression and supports violence against women." - So you're honestly saying I support violence against women because I gave a suggestion as to how someone can avoid a dangerous situation with a horrific outcome. Yeah okay. This is one reason why the term rape culture is detrimental to society. It demonizes anyone who isn't all gung-ho on the feminist bandwagon and doesn't follow 110% of their beliefs and movements.

3. All I can say is it is better to be prepared than to protest after the fact. The reason there aren't any cases in the media or internet of a mugging victim being given suggestions as to how to avoid it next time (like my personal experience that I explained to you), is because nobody cares about this made up "victim blaming" idea. The only reason it's popular with rape and violence against women (yes, only women) is due to feminism. Feminism is trying to change the world and the only way they can do that is by showing how "horrible" women are treated, cue rape culture and victim blaming.

If Brittany gets her Macbook Pro with retina display (...) stolen at Starbucks while she goes to get her Venti Chai Tea Latte (...), and somebody says "maybe next time don't leave it there!" Nobody would bat an eye. Good advice, right? Well apparently the same type of advice doesn't apply when it's a feminist issue. Only now is it "victim blaming." Also just happens to only be an issue when the aggressor is usually male. What a surprise, a feminist issue that can address any type of crime, but focuses on the crime that men tend to act out more. Huh.

4. So you don't think all the factors of the situation should be taken into consideration, just "man rape, woman victim, woman never lie, man jail." Unfortunately for you (and feminists), the court systems in North America don't work that way. All the facts of every crime are taken into consideration. A question (as you put it, "the questioning process") is a question, and questions are meant to be asked in court.

5.Slavery is forcing someone to work for no reward as well as beating the hell out of them and torturing them. I'd be against slavery if I saw it today. Women are not slaves and women are not treated as inferior and nobody rational and sane is saying it's the woman's fault or even the woman is partially to blame for being raped. Being given advice to avoid it is not blaming someone. I can't make it any more black and white.

6. If you want to challenge me to a debate on equality and equal opportunity in America, I'd be more than happy to take you up on that. Women earn 79 cents to a man's dollar due to multiple reasons. This figure is not based on the same job and the same two people with the same experience and ambition.

7. And I recommend you ask any male gamer how much they've been verbally abused. I'm pretty sure it's about the same. But all of a sudden it's an issue because a woman is now the victim. One more reason "rape culture" and feminism is detrimental to society.

8. I'm more than happy making peace with people. I'm not aggressive or disrespectful to anyone. I think the main issue is people who feel they have the need to change the world to suit their idea of what "perfect" and "equality" is. Changing the social constructs of our societies is detrimental, as we're working great now. People will never be perfect as a whole. There will be sick people and there will be rude people. We have to just deal with them or help if possible.

Looking forward to a good last round.

[1] http://dictionary.reference.com...
Debate Round No. 4
sidewinder

Pro

I unfortunately have little time for this argument so I will try and keep my rebuttals as short and to the point as possible

I would first like to say and i will be in all caps so my opponent does not represent me on this I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THE POLICE ASKING A VICTIM OF RAPE WHAT THEY WERE WEARING, IT IS A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION AND THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO ASK ANY QUESTIONS PERTAINING TO THEIR INVESTIGATION. HOWEVER, I DO NOT SUPPORT ALLOWING THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY OR JUDGE TO ASK WHY THE VICTIM DID NOT FIGHT BACK. THAT IS BECAUSE NOT ONLY IS IT ILLEGAL IN EVERY CASE DUE TO THE RAPE SHIELD LAW EXPLAINED IN MY PREVIOUS ARGUMENT BUT BECAUSE IT SETS A PRECEDENCE IN RAPE CASES WERE THE JUDGE OR DEFENSE ATTORNEY CAN INSINUATE THAT IT WAS TH VICTIMS FAULT. THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE INNOCENCE OR GUILT OF EITHER PARTY AND IN MY OPINION IS PART OF RAPE CULTURE. My apologizes if I did not make that point clear enough but that is wear I stand on the issue.

Next video rebuttals
1. The use of "rape' and other offensive slang words like "gay" and numerous others do not belong in media. It lowers the bar of journalism and talk shows to a bar lower than they were before. Although it does not perpetuate rape its use is in my opinion part of rape culture because the word exploit could have been used in every single example I showed in the video but they don't because society doesn't condemn it even though we should hold our media to a higher standard.
2.I would like you to imagine if a man that you trusted and was employing you drugged you than mugged you and stole your money. Because of the fact you were drugged you were unable to resist and had explicitly said. Then you were asked way you didn't fight back. That doesn't happen but for rape victims it does. Once again it is not perpetuating rape but it is treating it differently than other crimes thus I consider it rape culture
3. My point was not that the media people were perpetuating rape but it was that they were treating rape as a crime different than others. If they ad molested children no sympathy. I f they had murdered no sympathy. Even if thy mugged no sympathy. But because it is partially considered in news reporters head that the girl could have "seduced" them that it is at least partially her fault. Once again this special treatment is rape culture.
4. This graph was to show how stupid elected officials are when it comes to rape. I'm not saying they support rape but they are people that have the power to legislate and lessen this problem but I have no confidence in this because they barely understand the societal problem that our country has faced aka feminism. Thus they perpetuate public ignorance toward rape and thus rape culture

more rebuttals
1. no it is not read my little rant above in all caps above. Also their is no consensual murder but their is consensual mugging, assault and other crimes its called fraud and its committed thousands of times every year. Far more then the pretending to be raped idea that you continue to push forward. why did you not fight back is not blaming 100$ but it is still victim blaming by saying they could have done more to stop their psychological and physical harm from happening
2.I once again answered where I have a problem asking and not asking what the person is wearing. acceptable by police not acceptable in court room. please stop perverting my argument to fit your rebuttals.

However I'm seeing where are differences are. You think that I believe that rape culture is not "a complex set of beliefs that encourage male sexual aggression and supports violence against women". I do not agree with the definition I think that rape culture is cultural phenomena that has occurred in America that does not perpetuate violence but instead ignorance to the treatment of rape as a crime. I do not thin that saying the word rape perpetuate nor do I think that reporters feeling bad for boys convicted of rape perpetuates it either. However, I do believe it highlights how America treat the horrid crime of rape differently than other crimes where victim blaming aka people saying women should cover up in order to not get raped. This makes women live in a world of fear were if they express their freedom of expression by wearing sex clothes they are suddenly at fault for the horrid crime committed against them. For as you said they are sick people out their but we should not also put rape victims on the band wagon of blame because they were wearing attractive clothing. I'm also very curious on the "female utopia I have in mind seeing that I AM A MAN. so why exactly would I want to have a female dominant world. I merely think that America needs to move away from victim blaming and ignorance s that we can move toward a truly equal world. The only thing that's holding us back is pessimists who think equality is impossible.
3.No no the reason that their isn't victim blaming in mugging is because it wouldn't make sense. However it is acceptable in a case of rape because rape is treated differently as described above. Also I would ask you what kind of feminist would purposely perpetuate rape culture to then draw attention to rape culture. That's like creating a problem to create a problem so that your conspiracy theory could work.
3.b. A women getting her laptop stolen is her getting her laptop stolen. A women getting raped would require very different advice. Not don't express your self and cover up because sick people are out their which appears to be you message. Instead they need comfort just as anyone needs after a violent experience. Thus I don't feel that giving advice that encourages women to be scared of their bodies can only lead to bad things.
4.Seeing as it is Galilee to ask such question then yes I would say it is inappropriate to question a women with that line of questioning that you are describing.
5.The type of of "advice" of covering up because some could rape you is victim blaming because it implies that your clothing caused the rape in at least a partial bit. I also recommend that you look up the fact that women earn 79 cents for every dollar a man earns and that our government is still not even close to 50 50 for genders in any state or national legislature.
6. Yes they are based on the same job but as you said its a debate for another time
7.Okay well seeing as I am a male gamer I can say with absolute certainty that all of my friends on video games that are women garner much more harassment that often manifests itself in sexual innuendos or other inappropriate statements if you disagree with that they go play online games for 6 years of your life and get back to me.
8.That quote was supposed to show that as soon as mankind believes it is possible for equality than we have taken the first step to equality. But until than things such as rape culture will continue to discriminate against ape victims. That is my argument and I will be interested by your response.
Mister_Man

Con


Thanks a lot in advance for the good argument, Sidewinder.


Clothing


I understand you accept it to be a reasonable act to question clothing worn by rape (and other crime) victims. As far as a question such as "why did you not fight back?" I consider to be the same as asking "what were you wearing?" Both question the situation and the victim's actions pertaining to the crime against them. Asking why they didn't fight back is a reasonable question and does not imply it's their fault the crime happened. If you can accept that somebody asking what the victim was wearing before the crim happened is okay, then you should also be okay with someone asking why the victim didn't take any actions during the crime also. The only part I "agree" on is that the rape shield law doesn't allow these questions to be asked. However this is a case of "breaking the law" at the very most, and has nothing to do with anyone insinuating that it's the victim's fault.


Videos


1. Offensive words don't belong in media? If you truly believe that, you should also be against anything that can be remotely considered offensive. Some people are offended, most are not. That's why it's "okay" to use these words in media. You're right that this does not perpetuate rape.


2. You again agree that this does not perpetuate rape. Like I said, rape is a much different crime than any other. There can be a "consensual" form of rape, there cannot be a "consensual" form of murder, robbery, etc. If you could have shown an example of a judge or really anyone continuously ask why the victim didn't fight back after she made it clear she couldn't due to the drugs, alcohol, unconsciousness, anything, then I'd be more willing to side with you here, however all you said was "someone asking why they didn't fight back is bad, and does not perpetuate rape." Therefore it's reasonable to believe, by the very definition of rape culture, that this is not a part of rape culture.


3. Rape is a crime different than others, as I've explained several times. It's a crime, yes, and can be punishable like any other crime, yes, however there is a "lesser," legal version of rape, which is simply sex. There is not a "lesser" legal version of murder, robbery, etc. However first, second, and third degree murder are things, "consensual" or "legal" murder don't exist. Rape isn't the only crime where "sympathy" is shown to the aggressors, and you did only give me one isolated incident, but here's an article addressing how murder-suicide should not be sympathized with [1], which also includes a case of sympathy for someone who committed a murder-suicide. So Not only is rape not the "only crime in which aggressors are sympathized with," but it also shows that "rape culture" doesn't exist (in this scenario, anyway), considering the "only" thing that happens in rape cases doesn't actually only happen in rape cases.


4. A handful (a HANDFULL) of people are uneducated. I'm on your side to the extent that we should educate more people on the matter, however none of this condones or perpetuates rape or anything along those lines. Once again even you said "I'm not saying they support rape," therefore - no rape culture.


Three of your Four final points said these people either don't support rape, or their actions don't perpetuate rape, which really is the definition of rape culture. So three of your four arguments are basically saying there is no rape culture. Your other point (that isn't agreeing with mine) is saying that rape is treated differently than most crimes, which is true, considering it is different than most other crimes.


More Rebuttals


1. Fraud and consent are different things. Nobody commits fraudulent rape. Nobody consents to their belongings actually being stolen and nobody consents to actually getting beat up (as much as sex anyway...). Sex is happening all the time. Consensual muggings or murders are not. That's why rape is a different crime than the aforementioned. Saying they could have done more to prevent it is not a bad thing, it's a bit of advice. If Sally's phone is stolen after she leaves it on her desk at school, and I give her a bit of advice by saying, "maybe you shouldn't leave your phone unattended," you wouldn't say the same thing. You'd say (or most people would, anyway) that's a good bit of advice. But as soon as it's a more serious crime (so advice would kind of be more important?) it's all of a sudden a bad thing... I don't get it.


2. 2. Fair enough, sorry if it seemed like I was trying to change your argument, maybe I just didn't understand your position completely. Unfortunately you can't give your own definition of the topic we're discussing at the very end of the debate. I only have a couple things to bring up for the rest of this. Avoiding crime makes sense. ...It's as simple as that, there's no logical reason to purposely not avoid a possible crime. Nobody is blaming the victim. I never said female utopia, I said feminist utopia - men can be feminists too. Men and women bring different skill sets and traits to the table, we are not equal in every subject, however I agree to an extent that we do need to be educated more on certain topics. None of this falls into the recognizes and accepted definition of rape culture, though.


3. I told you in the first round about my experience with cops giving me advice as to how to avoid being mugged again. Cops giving advice to a woman as to how to avoid being raped again is the same thing, and you don't have a problem with the first scenario. And you don't think it's possible for someone to "create" an issue in order to get their group more followers...?


3b. You're implying anyone giving advice wouldn't also comfort anyone. They do. They just also give advice.


4. Inappropriate is inappropriate, not perpetuating rape.


5. ....And is this advice a bad thing? It's advice. It's how to avoid something......... It's how to avoid something. This is not bad. And women in general earn 79 cents to a mans dollar, considering men work more full time jobs than women, more higher paying jobs, don't take maternity leave as much, etc. It isn't per specific job between two people with the same experience and education.


6. I would be more than happy to debate this another time.


7. I've been playing video games since forever. That is your experience, and I won't say you're wrong, however my experiences differ. We can leave this at "we have different experiences online."


8. I'm all for being treated equally. However men and women bring different traits to the table, and we aren't truly biologically equal.


So let's see. Fraud =/= consent. Cops "victim blame" according to your definition, victims of other crime also. Advice is advice is advice is advice. It is not blaming somebody, and if it is putting a part of the blame on someone, it's for a good reason - how to avoid the crime in the future. Men and women are not biologically equal, however we should be (and are, in North America anyway) treated equally.



Thanks a lot for a good debate, I'm really glad we discussed this!



[1] http://www.smh.com.au...


Debate Round No. 5
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Mister_Man 2 years ago
Mister_Man
Well I just found out my reply is 2,500 characters too long, so I'll be making some adjustments and I'll probably post the leftovers in the next round.
Posted by sidewinder 2 years ago
sidewinder
thejoey550 in that clip I'm pointing out that the media uses the word rape so freely that our society has become desensitized to what the word rape can mean. This in my opinion is one of the problems with rape culture in America with the reference to horrific crimes with to that is somewhat disturbing.
Posted by Mister_Man 2 years ago
Mister_Man
Sidewinder - What do I think rape culture is? Or feminism? Feminism WAS the movement geared toward achieving economic, political, societal and human rights for women, as well as equality in comparison to men. It was (and still is in many parts of the world) a good cause that was highly needed, as women were (and still are in some parts of the world) treated as second class citizens. However as far as I can see, and believe me I've done loads of research on this, women are now treated equally and given the same opportunity as men in North America. Sure, you can bring up several isolated incidents where someone is being blatantly sexist, but for every instance of sexism against women I can bring up at least one aimed at men. And this is equality. Two people being treated equally bad is still equal. I'd be more than happy to have this debate with you another time if you want! I'll respond to the debate in a bit, just got to work and need to get set up before watching youtube videos lol.
Posted by thejoey550 2 years ago
thejoey550
Although there were many people in that clip using it badly, but the people who were not using it graphically are not talking about rape with its modern definition.
Posted by thejoey550 2 years ago
thejoey550
Sidewinder https://www.youtube.com... that's the video which you put where people are using the word rape. Words, even though have a very common meaning, usually have normal smaller used older original definition . http://www.merriam-webster.com... The section titleed the full definition of rape states it means to seize or take away by force(just like molest). Rape didn't mean what it meant today until someone used the word to explain sex with out content. So I think you have that a little mixed up. Using the the word rape to describe something is not supporting rape or condemning it.

Sadly people do get raped, even though it should not happen at all, there are still actions you can take to avoid it. You can avoid it just like you avoid muggings, murder, and other crimes. The people getting mugged or murdered or raped never asked for it thought , and its very sad that people have to suffer from those crimes.
Posted by sidewinder 2 years ago
sidewinder
Mister_Man this is not directly related to the debate but I'm curious on what you think it is? For my interpretation of feminism is promoting gender equality not pushing agendas down peoples throats. Sure their are always a few bad sects of feminism that want something more than equality but the vast majority jut want to not have decisions made based on their gender. However that s a debate for another time.
Posted by Mister_Man 2 years ago
Mister_Man
I think if someone makes up an allegation like that just to get the other person in sh*t then they deserve whatever jail time the other person would have gotten. So yeah I agree with you, cheyenne.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
If the woman is truly a victim. If she is just out for vengeance to make the guy pay for something else. that to me is just as bad as a rape itself. Or even worse.That is why we have courts. To air these things out. Women have an advantage. They can turn on the emotions much easier than men can. Even if all they are saying is a lie.
Posted by Mister_Man 2 years ago
Mister_Man
And yeah rape culture (the way feminists see it) doesn't exist. IntellectuallyPrimitive says it perfectly.
Posted by Mister_Man 2 years ago
Mister_Man
I would happily accept, however "rape culture" is not the idea that someone actually believes it's the women's FAULT, it's the idea that people support rape if they don't agree 100% with the women...
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by carriead20 2 years ago
carriead20
sidewinderMister_ManTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro used YouTube for his round 1 argument sources social media sites are NOT a good sources to use. Over all good debate to both. Con did a better job of refuting Pro's arguments.