The Instigator
sillydebater
Pro (for)
Losing
2 Points
The Contender
Heirio
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Rape culture exists in North America

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Heirio
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/26/2016 Category: Society
Updated: 1 month ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 403 times Debate No: 96444
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (34)
Votes (1)

 

sillydebater

Pro

This debate is on whether rape culture exists in North America. I am Pro and assume the burden of proof.

Debate format

Round 1
Pro - Outlining debate and definitions
Con - Acceptance and initial arguments (if desired)

Round 2-4
Pro & Con: Arguments and rebuttals

Definitions for this debate
Rape - Unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will [of a person] or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent [1 Removed text "usually of a female"]

Culture - The beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, place, or time [2]

Rape Culture - The beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, place or time that trivialize rape, or suggest that rape is acceptable in certain circumstances [From combining the above]

Exist - To have actual being : to be real [3]

North America - The continent of the western hemisphere NW of S. America bounded by Atlantic, Arctic, & Pacific oceans [4]

1. http://www.merriam-webster.com...
2. http://www.merriam-webster.com...
3. http://www.merriam-webster.com...
4. http://www.merriam-webster.com...
Heirio

Con

I accept and will try to debate as well as I can. It has been a good while since I have debated formally and I will try my best to do this one for North 'Murica despite being in England.

I'd like Pro to post initial arguments in round two.
Debate Round No. 1
sillydebater

Pro

I thank Heirio for accepting this debate and I look forward to an honest discussion of the issue. 
I am happy to open the discussion up to include the UK.


NOTE: The following argument contains distubing language around the topic of Rape.
I have had to alter the profanity in the quotes to be able to pubish the argument.


The Existence of Rape Culture in North America and the UK

In order to prove something exists it is sufficient to show examples of it. One of the most overt examples of Rape Culture is the
rape threat, which clearly communicates a belief that rape is acceptable in a particular circumstance. There are many examples
of rape threats in North America and the UK. Here are just a few:


Rape Threats Towards Rebecca Watson
Rebecca Watson is a member of the American Athiest movement [5]. She has been sent many rape threats including [6]:

"Can sombody please rape Rebecca Watson? She would love it"

"What she needs is to be bent over and have her a**hole cored out for a few hours until she is a sore, swollen, gaping mess"

"someone needs to stick d*cks in your mouth so you stfu stupid bitch"

"honestly, and i mean HONESTLY.. you deserve to be raped and tortured and killed. swear id laugh if i could"


Rape Threats Towards Anita Sarkeesian
Anita Sarkeesian is a Canadian-American media critic [7]. She received rape theats including [8]:

"You Stupid A** Bitch I Will F*ck You In The A** So Hard"

"im gonna bust dem sugar walls leave an aids load in der"

"I hope you get raped by 4 men with 9 inch cocks"

"imma kill u and rape u"


Rape Threats Towards Caroline Criado-Perez
Caroline Criado-Perez is an British activist and journalist [9]. She has received rape threats including [10]:

"SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH..... OR ILL SHUT IT FOR YOU AND CHOKE YOU WITH MY D*CK"

"open that cunt wide bitch. You about to feel da pain!"

"PUT BOTH YOUR HANDS ON MY COCK AND STROKE IT TILL I CUM ON YOUR EYEBALLS. DO AS I F*CKING SAY OR I'LL
SLIT YA THROAT."


"WOMEN THAT TALK TOO MUCH NEED TO GET RAPED"


There are many [11], many [12], many [13] more documented instances of rape threats in our society.

Summary

P1: Rape threats in our society are examples of Rape Culture, as they suggest a belief that rape is acceptable in a particular
circumstance

P2: There are numerous documented cases of rape threats in North American and UK society
C: Rape Culture exists in North American and UK society

5. http://www.slate.com...
6. http://skepchick.org...
7. https://en.wikipedia.org...
8. http://femfreq.tumblr.com...
9. https://en.wikipedia.org...
10. https://weekwoman.wordpress.com...
11. http://www.ibtimes.co.uk...
12. https://www.rt.com...
13. http://www.huffingtonpost.com...;
Heirio

Con

Through discussions with Pro in the comments, we have agreed to change the parameters of the debate. We both agree that rape culture does exist in North America. However, where we differ is in the belief of the size of the population who support rape culture. The new agreed-upon statement of debate is:

A significant minority of people in America support rape culture.

We also agreed on the following definitions:

Significant Minority = over 25% of a population
Support = to promote the interests or cause of
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

Pro's comments in Round 1 still stand, however they are now directed towards the new statement of debate. I will begin my arguments here.

-----------------------------------------------------

While the threat of rape is particularly disturbing, the messages that were sent to these people were across the internet. While this doesn't dismiss what was said, what people say across the internet can be less thought out. People tend to vent their emotions a lot more and it can be extreme, it can be something they'd never do in real life.
When I, for example, come across an informal opponent who is intellectually dishonest, arrogant, or a downright liar, I turn into a horrible person. I am incredibly condescending when such happens. But I'd never do that sort of thing in reality; it was merely a vent for my frustration.

It's likely that most of the rape threats are similar. All three of the people you have talked about have provoked their comments (albeit the response is quite the overreaction). The first came out saying she felt that she was sexualised and was offended because she was offered coffee by a man and spoke about sexual assault in her community, the second has said many things - such as sexism cannot occur to men - and the third had complained that a man has replaced a woman on the five pound note.

Due to the nature of the internet, these things were likely taken and debate was had about them. Things spiralled out of control and feelings grew stronger and stronger about the issue - this is for both sides. The rape threats and the death threats would be a rather extreme way of showing the people's rage against the three women, just as my condescension of many is a form of expression of my frustration.
Hence, it is likely that these rape threats were - for the most part - not legitimate threats, but rather expressions of hatred.

It is without a doubt that these threats are abhorrent and that there are some legitimate threats and wishes being expressed, though it is hard to tell which out of all are true. The current extent I have seen from your sources is one person having their home broken into and being viciously assaulted. I have not seen evidence for these rape threats coming in fruition.

-----------------------------------------------------

To summarise, people often say things on the internet they don't mean, or rather they go to extremes in order to express the feelings they have.

It is unlikely that all those who said what they did necessarily -wanted- such to happen but were expressing hatred and discontent by going to such extremes, similar to how I use condescension to show my frustration and how some use the drinking of bleach as a response to seeing something they find cringey.
Debate Round No. 2
sillydebater

Pro

I will first present my argument supporting the new debate statement. Then I will rebut Con's statements.

A Significant Minority of People in America Support Rape Culture
Above is the statement I am attempting to prove. In specific, over 25% of Americans promote the belief or customs that trivialize unlawful sexual activity, or suggest that unlawful sexual activity is acceptable in certain circumstances. I believe this is definitely true. To argue this, I will begin by focusing on one person in particular who espouses and represents rape culture: Donald Trump.

Donald Trump has stated that he has committed unlawful sexual acts. In specific, he said:

"I just start kissing [women]. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. ... Grab 'em by the p*ssy. You can do anything." [14]

Non-consensual sexual touching is sexual assault, and is illegal in the United States. [15] Trump saying sexual assault is acceptable in certain circumstances is, without question, an example of rape culture.

There are two points I want to make in regards to Trump's statement:

1) A Significant Minority of Americans Believe American Men Support Rape Culture

After Trump's comments were released, a scientific study was conducted to determine the public's reaction. When asked "Do you think Donald Trump's comments about women on the recently released video are typical of the way men sometimes talk to each other about women?", 47% of Americans polled said Trump's comments were typical of men. [16] In other words, 47% of Americans polled believe American men typically make statements that promote rape culture. Likely, they would not call it supporting rape culture, but I have already shown above that that's what it is.

2) A Significant Minority of Americans Support Rape Culture

The second point I want to make involves Trump himself. Trump apologized for his comments, and recanted that he had ever sexually assaulted anyone. [17] Normally, that would be sufficient evidence to show that he no longer promotes rape culture. Unfortunately, he went on to trivialize his comments by dismissing them as simply "locker room banter". [17, 18] As per the definition, trivializing sexual assault promotes rape culture, and so by downplaying his comments, Trump continues to promote rape culture.

Recent polls show over 40% of Americans supporting or voting for Trump [19]. Though I think it would be incorrect to say a majority of Trump's supporters consciously support rape culture*, simply by supporting Trump's bid for Presidency, all of Trump's supporters are promoting rape culture, as I will explain.

The President of the United States is the highest office in the land, and the President is a role model for all Americans. Having someone who promotes rape culture as President will, at least in a small way, legitimize and normalize the act of promoting rape culture. Therefore, everyone who supports Trump's bid for Presidency is furthering the legitimacy of promoting rape culture, simply by the act of their support.

To put it a different way, everyone who voted for Hitler furthered the anti-Semitic cause, even if they themselves were not anti-Semitic. Similarly, over 40% of Americans polled are contributing to the promotion of rape culture, even though many may not personally agree with the idea.

* There is definitely some segment of Trump's supporters that openly supports rape culture, given the signs and gear that have been brought to Trump's rallies [20]

Summary
Argument #1
P1: Trump has said that Sexual Assault is acceptable in certain circumstances, which supports rape culture
P2: A significant minority of Americans admit American men (as a group) make similar statements which support rape culture
C: A significant minority of Americans support rape culture

Argument #2
P1: Donald Trump promotes rape culture by trivializing unlawful sexual activity
P2: President is the highest role model in America
P3: Having Donald Trump as president would, to some degree, legitimize or normalize rape culture
P4: A significant minority are promoting Donald Trump to become President
C: A significant minority are promoting, thus supporting, rape culture, even if unintentionally

Rebuttal of Con's Arguments
Con argues that things communicated on the Internet are often reactionary, and often less consideration is taken when typing online than when talking to someone in person. Arguments easily escalate, and people often use extreme language to communicate emotion. Even so, Con believes that rape threats are "disturbing" and "abhorrent". I agree with all of the above.

What concerns me about Con's arguments is when Con states that Internet communication is not "real life", and that using abusive language online is not "reality". It is both enlightening and disturbing to consider that people believe the Internet is not real, and therefore feel justified to treat people differently online than they would in person. There is no evidence to show that Internet communications are any less real than in-person communications.

Furthermore, Con states that the threats quoted in Round 1 were likely not "legitimate threats", explaining that for threats to be "true", they have to match the wishes of the one making the threat. Unfortunately, threats do not work that way.

A Threat is defined as "An expression of intention to inflict evil, injury, or damage". [21] Note, that it is the expression of intention that defines a threat, not the intention itself. When someone wrote "imma kill u and rape u", it didn't matter whether or not the writer intended to follow through or not. Just writing that they were going to do it was enough to make it a threat. Therefore, all the threats listed in Round 1 were "legitimate threats" because they all expressed intention.

In summary, just because things were said over the Internet in no way makes them less "real" or harmful. Similarly, just because people may not have intended to follow through on rape threats, does not make the threats any less real. These rape threats remain a statement condoning or encouraging rape, which is by defnintion rape culture. The conclusion from Round 1 holds firm: Rape culture exists in America.

14. http://www.telegraph.co.uk...
15. https://en.wikipedia.org...
16. http://www.cbsnews.com...
17. http://www.nytimes.com...
18. https://www.donaldjtrump.com...
19. http://www.cbc.ca...
20. http://nymag.com...
21. http://www.merriam-webster.com...
Heirio

Con

"A Threat is defined as "An expression of intention to inflict evil, injury, or damage". [21] Note, that it is the expression of intention that defines a threat, not the intention itself. When someone wrote "imma kill u and rape u", it didn't matter whether or not the writer intended to follow through or not. Just writing that they were going to do it was enough to make it a threat. Therefore, all the threats listed in Round 1 were "legitimate threats" because they all expressed intention."

But they only constitute towards rape culture if the author of those threats expressed legitimate intention to rape. This has not been proven, all that has been proven is that they had extreme emotion towards the victim.

There are two points I want to make in regards to Trump's statement:

"1) A Significant Minority of Americans Believe American Men Support Rape Culture

After Trump's comments were released, a scientific study was conducted to determine the public's reaction. When asked "Do you think Donald Trump's comments about women on the recently released video are typical of the way men sometimes talk to each other about women?", 47% of Americans polled said Trump's comments were typical of men. [16] In other words, 47% of Americans polled believe American men typically make statements that promote rape culture. Likely, they would not call it supporting rape culture, but I have already shown above that that's what it is."

Moreover, Trump himself expressed his discontent with what he said, calling it "locker room talk". Therefore, not serious. It is also likely that many people who supported him didn't think that he was serious too, they perhaps thoughts he was joking around.

I went to the site and it said that it was 47% of voters, not Americans. I checked and roughly 200 million people in the US are voters. 47% of that is 28.9% of Americans, using America's population.

If you were to take this at face value, you'd be correct. However, take into account what was said earlier. Trump himself expressed that it was locker room talk and therefore not serious. It is likely that many of his supporters also believe such and therefore may not actually believe that he was being serious in his claims.

Moreover, how do we know these voters in these polls were supporting Trump's words? It is a total value, therefore including women. Some of that 28.9% may have been women expressing sexist views.

What truly matters is how many of these people were defending Trump. These figures do not show if these people were defending Trump, it just showed their attitudes towards men.

"The second point I want to make involves Trump himself. Trump apologized for his comments, and recanted that he had ever sexually assaulted anyone. [17] Normally, that would be sufficient evidence to show that he no longer promotes rape culture. Unfortunately, he went on to trivialize his comments by dismissing them as simply "locker room banter". [17, 18] As per the definition, trivializing sexual assault promotes rape culture, and so by downplaying his comments, Trump continues to promote rape culture."

All he was stating that his words were not serious. He was stating he didn't actually do this stuff. Thus, not a component of rape culture. Moreover, he said he wasn't proud of it.
Ergo, he doesn't support rape culture.

"The President of the United States is the highest office in the land, and the President is a role model for all Americans. Having someone who promotes rape culture as President will, at least in a small way, legitimize and normalize the act of promoting rape culture."

He stated himself that his claims were not serious and he has also said that he wasn't proud of it. He regrets it even though it was locker room talk. It is pretty clear he doesn't support it.

"To put it a different way, everyone who voted for Hitler furthered the anti-Semitic cause, even if they themselves were not anti-Semitic. Similarly, over 40% of Americans polled are contributing to the promotion of rape culture, even though many may not personally agree with the idea."

Godwin's law!

This relies upon the idea that Trump now supports rape culture. This has not been shown to be the case.

In summary, rape threats only constitute towards a rape culture if the intention behind them was legitimate, though this is both unlikely and unproven.
Trump himself said his comments were locker room talk and therefore not serious or necessarily true. Hence it is likely that many of his supporters feel this way. Moreover, not all of the people cited in the statistics may have been supporting Trump; they may have been expressing misandric views.
Due to the fact that it was locker room talk, and therefore not serious, and Trump regretted it later on, saying he wasn't proud of it, points to the fact that he doesn't support a rape culture.
Debate Round No. 3
sillydebater

Pro

This is my final rebuttal of the debate. Definitions will be very important for my arguments.

From Round 1, we have the following definitions:

Rape Culture
The beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, place or time that trivialize rape, or suggest that rape is acceptable in certain circumstances

Rape
Unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will of a person or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent

These two definitions are agreed upon by both Pro and Con, and are not up for debate.

I will add a third definition:

Trivialize
To make something seem less important or serious than it actually is [22, 23]

With those defined, I will move on to my rebuttal of Con's arguments from last round, in reverse order.

Rebuttal of Con's Arguments
As per the definition, an aspect of rape culture is the trivialization of rape. This means making unlawful sexual activity seem less serious than it actually is.

Con wrote "[Trump] was stating that his words were not serious." This is true. In 2005, Donald Trump said that he sexually assaults women. [14] Then in 2016, he said that was just joking about sexual assault [17. 18], as if this cleared him from promoting rape culture. But it doesn't.

Joking about sexual assault is making it seem less serious than it is. That is trivializing sexual assault. That is rape culture. Saying he regrets it is not enough. Of course he regrets it, it severely hurt him in the polls. Saying he wasn't proud of it is not enough, either. As long as he keeps trivializing sexual assault by using the "locker room talk" excuse, he is still promoting rape culture.

The remainder of my argument still stands: Those voting for Trump are working to put a leader and role model in office who promotes rape culture. Therefore, by simply supporting Trump, they are furthering rape culture in America. I'll repeat the analogy I used in the last round:

"To put it a different way, everyone who voted for Hitler furthered the anti-Semitic cause, even if they themselves were not anti-Semitic. Similarly, over 40% of Americans polled are contributing to the promotion of rape culture, even though many may not personally agree with the idea."

---

Con said it was likely "that many people who supported [Trump] didn't think that he was serious too, they perhaps thoughts he was joking around."

The definition of rape culture includes trivializing (e.g. joking) about sexual assault. Therefore, the belief that joking about sexual assault acceptable is a belief grounded in rape culture. Trump supporters who believe this, then, are continuing to foster rape culture.

To provide another analogy, joking about lynch mobbing African Americans and hanging them contributes to anti-Black culture. So it is with jokes about sexual assault and rape culture.

---

In the previous round, I cited statistics that showed 47% of American voters admitted that American men, as a whole, make jokes about sexual assault, which as I showed above, promotes rape culture. Con had a couple of rebuttals of this point:

"I went to the site and it said that it was 47% of voters, not Americans. I checked and roughly 200 million people in the US are voters. 47% of that is 28.9% of Americans, using America's population."

Agreed. 47% of U.S. voters represents approximately 29% of all Americans. However, it is reasonable to extrapolate that the beliefs of voting Americans are roughly representative of the country as a whole. The only way you can say that only 29% of Americans don't believe American men make jokes about sexual assault is if you can prove 100% of non-voters don't believe it, which is absurdly unlikely. Regardless, both 47% and 29% fit the requirement for "Significant Minority" as set out at the beginning of the debate.

"Moreover, how do we know these voters in these polls were supporting Trump's words? It is a total value, therefore including women. Some of that 28.9% may have been women expressing sexist views."

Unlike my previous argument, this argument has nothing to do with supporting Trump or his words. My argument here is that over 40% of Americans believe that American men promote rape culture. You are right, in that this is not proof. They could all be wrong, or biased. However, Occam's Razor says that most likely, the majority of them are simply reporting what they see and experience in their everyday lives. Or, in other words, a significant minority of Americans see men promoting rape culture in the U.S. And that is not even considering the unreported population of women who promote rape culture.

---

In the previous round we discussed rape threats, and what constitutes a threat. Con wrote:

"[Threats] only constitute towards rape culture if the author of those threats expressed legitimate intention to rape. This has not been proven, all that has been proven is that they had extreme emotion towards the victim."

I completely disagree and argue the exact opposite. There is absolutely no way of knowing the emotion of a writer on the internet. Someone writing a rape threat could be angry, or depressed, or excited, or horny, or sleepy. Heck, some of those rape threats could have been written by bots that have no emotion whatsoever.

I can write "I AM SO ANGRY AT YOU!", and you have no idea whether I'm telling the truth, especially if that's all I write. When communicating over the internet, all we have are the words that are written, and so the words themselves are all that matter.

I want to address what Con calls "legitimate intention". Writing "I will do X" states intention to do X. [24] On the internet, because we only have written words to go by, any reasonably feasible statement of intention cannot be dismissed as non-legitimate. If I write "After writing this, I will turn into a zebra", you can be pretty sure that's not legitimate. However, if I write "After writing this, I will go eat a sandwich", there is no evidence to be able to say that it is not my legitimate intention to do so. So it is with rape threats.

When someone on the internet says "I will find you and rape you" there is no way to tell if the person writing it is serious or not. This can be especially troubling for someone whose name is known, or whose place of employment is known, or someone who goes to public events. Each of the three people I mentioned in Round 2 are well known in their communities, so finding them is not a difficult task. In other words, they have no proof that the threat is not "legitimate".

Furthermore, even if one argues that "non-legitimate" rape threats are not serious, it is still rape culture. This is because saying they are not serious is trivializing rape, which is rape culture.

Conclusion
I have shown that Donald Trump promotes rape culture by trivializing his comments about sexual assault. The significant minority of Americans who support him are legitimizing his words and actions, and are thus promoting rape culture.

Separately, I have shown that a significant minority of Americans report that rape culture is a regular feature in the United States, even though they themselves might not call it such.

Finally, I have shown that the numerous cases of rape threats online are a part of rape culture, regardless of the intent of the writer.

I have enjoyed debating with Con, and I thank Heirio for this opportunity. I am glad to see that we both agree rape culture exists in the United States, and I really appreciate how well Heirio represented my side in the comments, even if Heirio was not in full agreement of it.

I wish Con a good Round 4, and I look forward to reading the feedback in the voting stage.

---

P.S. In the comments someone pointed out that I used a biased source, rt.com, for one example of rape threats against women (Round 2). I officially replace that citation with the following five others [25, 26, 27, 28, 29].

22. http://www.merriam-webster.com...
23. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com...
24. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com...
25. http://www.telegraph.co.uk...
26. http://www.thetimes.co.uk...
27. http://www.keighleyonline.co.uk...
28. http://www.portlandmercury.com...
29. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk...
Heirio

Con

"Joking about sexual assault is making it seem less serious than it is. That is trivializing sexual assault. That is rape culture. Saying he regrets it is not enough. Of course he regrets it, it severely hurt him in the polls. Saying he wasn't proud of it is not enough, either. As long as he keeps trivializing sexual assault by using the "locker room talk" excuse, he is still promoting rape culture."

Saying that he regrets it and that he is not proud of it is a clear indication that he would not do such again.
He doesn't support it.

"The remainder of my argument still stands: Those voting for Trump are working to put a leader and role model in office who promotes rape culture. Therefore, by simply supporting Trump, they are furthering rape culture in America. I'll repeat the analogy I used in the last round:

"To put it a different way, everyone who voted for Hitler furthered the anti-Semitic cause, even if they themselves were not anti-Semitic. Similarly, over 40% of Americans polled are contributing to the promotion of rape culture, even though many may not personally agree with the idea.""

1. Godwin's law.

2. This argument only works if Trump has been proven to still be supporting rape culture. This is not the case. He has shown that he is not proud of the actions that once may have supported rape culture. Thus he would not repeat them. Hence he does not support it.

--------------------

"The definition of rape culture includes trivializing (e.g. joking) about sexual assault. Therefore, the belief that joking about sexual assault acceptable is a belief grounded in rape culture. Trump supporters who believe this, then, are continuing to foster rape culture."

Your basis was that these people are going to vote for Trump and that since Trump supports rape culture, so do these people, in effect.

However, it still has not been shown that he supports rape culture. He has declared that he was not proud of what he did.

---------------------------------------------------

"In the previous round, I cited statistics that showed 47% of American voters admitted that American men, as a whole, make jokes about sexual assault, which as I showed above, promotes rape culture."

Your language is very interesting here.

You use the term "admit". To admit something is to confess something to be the truth.

By using this language, you are therefore stating that you believe that the majority of American men makes jokes about sexual assault and that the majority of men support rape culture.

This is unproven and sexist.

"Agreed. 47% of U.S. voters represents approximately 29% of all Americans. However, it is reasonable to extrapolate that the beliefs of voting Americans are roughly representative of the country as a whole. The only way you can say that only 29% of Americans don't believe American men make jokes about sexual assault is if you can prove 100% of non-voters don't believe it, which is absurdly unlikely."

You - at first - said it was 47% of Americans, which at face value would hugely support your case. I pointed out how it wasn't 47% of Americans.

"My argument here is that over 40% of Americans believe that American men promote rape culture. You are right, in that this is not proof. They could all be wrong, or biased. However, Occam's Razor says that most likely, the majority of them are simply reporting what they see and experience in their everyday lives. Or, in other words, a significant minority of Americans see men promoting rape culture in the U.S."

If someone voices their opinion, we cannot accurately say that they hold their opinion because of what has happened in reality.

Let's take some white supremacists.
They say that white people are superior and good but they say that black people are inferior and are all horrible rapists.

What your logic determines is that these white supremacists are basing their views on reality and therefore should be taken seriously.

Now switch "white supremacists" with "misandrists", "white people" with "women", and "black people" with "men".

Moreover, we do not know what amount of this 29% actually supported Trump. Some could have been misandrists voicing their sexist views, as I said before.
Also, for all we know, 99% of this percentage could have been misandrists.

My point here is that we don't know the reasons behind these people's poll votes. We do not know if the majority was supporting Trump or if the majority were supporting sexist views.
It is very uncertain what these people's motivations are and therefore we cannot be certain if these people support Trump or not.
We cannot be certain how many of these people, if any, support rape culture.

"that is not even considering the unreported population of women who promote rape culture."

If it's unreported, we don't know the statistics and therefore it cannot be a part of this debate.

-----------------------------------------

"I completely disagree and argue the exact opposite. There is absolutely no way of knowing the emotion of a writer on the internet."

I highly doubt that someone telling someone to go die and get raped at the same time is in the best of moods. Moreover, you have yet to prove that all or the majority of these people hold legitimate intention to rape.

"Someone writing a rape threat could be angry, or depressed, or excited, or horny, or sleepy."

The victims caused a spiral of outrage with what they did. Most likely anger. Emotions would be extreme.

But this line supports me a bit by stating "depressed" and "sleepy". They're not in their right frame of minds and therefore would not say these things normally and therefore would not support rape culture.

But even so, legitimate intent is unknown.

"Heck, some of those rape threats could have been written by bots that have no emotion whatsoever."

Thus the population of people contributing to rape culture goes down. This oddly supports my original point.

"I can write "I AM SO ANGRY AT YOU!", and you have no idea whether I'm telling the truth, especially if that's all I write."

It's not a good comparison to death and rape threats. Not many people say that they're so angry, as they'd try to have an effect on their victim. This does not.

"When communicating over the internet, all we have are the words that are written, and so the words themselves are all that matter."

And the original intent is all but unknown.

"I want to address what Con calls "legitimate intention". Writing "I will do X" states intention to do X. [24] On the internet, because we only have written words to go by, any reasonably feasible statement of intention cannot be dismissed as non-legitimate. If I write "After writing this, I will turn into a zebra", you can be pretty sure that's not legitimate. However, if I write "After writing this, I will go eat a sandwich", there is no evidence to be able to say that it is not my legitimate intention to do so. So it is with rape threats."

Eating a sandwich is a normal thing to do in America.
Raping someone is not.

It is very easy to communicate via the internet and very easy to hurt people with what you say. These threats have not been proven to have legitimate intent.
The fact that it has only come to threats suggests that legitimate intent to rape is very low among the people who threatened it.

"When someone on the internet says "I will find you and rape you" there is no way to tell if the person writing it is serious or not. This can be especially troubling for someone whose name is known, or whose place of employment is known, or someone who goes to public events. Each of the three people I mentioned in Round 2 are well known in their communities, so finding them is not a difficult task. In other words, they have no proof that the threat is not "legitimate"."

The fact that it has only come to threats suggests that legitimate intent to rape is very low among the people who threatened it.

"Furthermore, even if one argues that "non-legitimate" rape threats are not serious, it is still rape culture. This is because saying they are not serious is trivializing rape, which is rape culture."

No no, they are using rape as a threat BECAUSE it is so serious BECAUSE it is so extreme. If rape was trivialised and made a non-issue, as is what rape culture does, then they're threats wouldn't mean anything.

By threatening to rape, they demonstrating that it is extreme and wrong. If it wasn't, then the threat wouldn't nearly have the same effect.

CONCLUSION

Pro tries to demonstrate that Trump still supports rape culture and therefore those voting for him would also do so. However, it has not been properly shown that he supports rape culture. He apologised for it and said that he wasn't proud of it, thus he regretted it and thus he doesn't support rape culture anymore.

He states that over 25% of Americans defend what Trump said, thus supporting rape culture. However, the unfortunate nature of the poll meant that we could not be certain on the motivation behind these polls and therefore the majority could may have well been misandrists. We don't know for certain and therefore it isn't a strong component for his argument.

He also points out that rape threats are an example of rape culture. But he fails to take into account the fact that it is uncertain how many of these people held legitimate intention to rape (due to the nature of the internet it is also likely that the majority did not). He combats this by saying that the mere use of rape threats to express extreme feelings trivialises rape, though he doesn't take into account the fact the trivialisation of rape would render those threats useless. It is the fact that rape is extreme that those threats are so extreme. If rape was a non-issue, the threats would have very little effect.

It's been my first time debating properly in a while and it was certainly an interesting topic, though I'm surprised that rape jokes didn't crop up.

Thanks to Pro for challenging me.
Debate Round No. 4
34 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Heirio 1 month ago
Heirio
One place defines a culture as "the way of life, especially the general customs and beliefs, of a particular group of people at a particular time."
There is undoubtedly some people who like rape. If they become friends and form a small community based on this common trait, you could class that as a rape culture.
Posted by Heirio 1 month ago
Heirio
We'd probably have to go into semantics to get down to what I think of it.
Posted by Heirio 1 month ago
Heirio
kek

Not in the way feminists believe.

I'd specifically class it as a very small subculture among a small population of the country. It exists within a country, the country doesn't live in it.

Like, I highly doubt you live in a rape culture. I know I don't.
Posted by firefury14620 1 month ago
firefury14620
I was a bit disappointed to find that Con believes there is a rape culture in North America.
Posted by Heirio 1 month ago
Heirio
I had two characters left in that argument box.
kek
Posted by Heirio 1 month ago
Heirio
Posting argument later in the day.
Posted by sillydebater 1 month ago
sillydebater
Oh, and that was a good catch on the men/women point too. None of this debate is about gender, nor should it be. Rape culture harms and is promoted by both/all genders.
Posted by sillydebater 1 month ago
sillydebater
Good response, Heirio. The stance that something does not exist, like GrimlyF is arguing, is *very* hard to defend. By just showing one example of it, it proves the whole case wrong. Looking at it a different way, by saying rape culture does not exist, GrimlyF is saying that there is not one single person in the U.S. who trivializes rape or thinks rape is okay in some situations, which of course is blatantly false.
Posted by Heirio 1 month ago
Heirio
"I have in fact read ALL the posts in this debate and am glad that you and Con have agreed that a rape culture exists in the U.S.A..Of course you are both wrong."

There are certain circles of people who like to rape others or at least want to. That is what I mean by a rape subculture.
NAMBLA is an example of how there is a pedophilic subculture. It isn't widespread and is very small, but it still exists.

There are Chinese subcultures in many areas of the US and the UK. This doesn't mean that those countries live in a Chinese culture, it just means that the subculture exists WITHIN a country.

"This means that less than 0.09% report a rape.Your " rape sub-culture" is hardly burgeoning is it?"

1. This doesn't disprove anything about rape culture. The only thing it alludes to is its size.
2. Rape culture is not about the actual act of rape, but rather attitudes to rape. If there is a small rape subculture in the US, then there is a small group of people who like the idea of raping people.

"Those threats are from cowardly and powerless people trying to exert power via threats."

Or simply expressing emotions.
My point was that they were, fundamentally, meaningless. They didn't originate from a genuine desire to rape.

"( Actually you cannot prove they were sent by men)"

So?
What does that have to do with it.
Men can rape women, women can rape men, women can rape women, men can rape men.
No-one used the sex of the online users as a point for rape culture existing in a significant minority.
Posted by GrimlyF 1 month ago
GrimlyF
(My P.C. is slowly dying and I cannot make paragraphs nor can I emphasise except by using Capitol letters).I have in fact read ALL the posts in this debate and am glad that you and Con have agreed that a rape culture exists in the U.S.A..Of course you are both wrong.I will give you some figures.Please Google:" Rape Statistics in the U.S.A". this site will tell you that approximately 89,000 rapes are reported annually.The ADULT female population of the U.S.A. is approx: 126 million. This means that less than 0.09% report a rape.Your " rape sub-culture" is hardly burgeoning is it?...................Regarding those internet threats?.They simply prove the psychoanylists are correct.Rape is about power not sex.Those threats are from cowardly and powerless people trying to exert power via threats.( Actually you cannot prove they were sent by men).............As a digression HOW ON EARTH COULD YOU USE www.rt.com as a source.Do you not know about R.T.com?Oh deary me.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by firefury14620 1 month ago
firefury14620
sillydebaterHeirioTied
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Total points awarded:23 
Reasons for voting decision: Most of the arguments used by Pro were either conjectural or not supported, while most of Con's arguments were logical and supported not only by facts, but my common sense. Pro cited his/her sources most consistently, but, through fact-checking, all of Con's arguments could easily be supported. Both Pro and Con had good spelling and grammar and conduct was mostly professional from both sides.