Debate Rounds (4)
(2.)Non-traditional rape happens in millions of marriages and relationships across the United States. (161.4.1)
(3.)In many cases of rape, the women knew the man who raped her, he might not of heard her say no, or felt that he was raping her but he in fact was raping her because she did not want to have sex with him even though she did not put up much resistance to it. (167.5.4)
(4.)Some women who have been non-traditionally raped by men were genuinely frightened by the male because of the situation he created where he could harm her if she did not comply to having sex with him. (172.5.2-3)
(5.)Women in Kyrgystan feel that being kidnapped by their potential husbands is extremely humiliating which is mainly why they do not want to be kidnapped. (3:10)
(6.)When brides are kidnapped and forced into marriage there is more abuse in that relationship than there is when a couple gets married traditionally. (6:40)
(7.)Some brides when they are kidnapped would rather kill themselves then have to stay with a guy that forced her to marry him (7:00)
(8.)The bride was clearly putting up a fight when the groom and his friends tried to put her in the car. (12:30)
(9.)Even on the car ride back to the groom"s house she was putting up a fight, resisting being in the car, she was crying and clearly upset about what was happening. (13:15)
(10.)She kept telling the guys in the car to let her go and when they tried to get her out of the car she put up even more of a fight. (14:25)
(11.)When the women of the family tried to put the wedding scarf on her she kept resisting, clearly she did not want to get married this way. (14:45)
(12.)The grandmother believes that it is not a good idea for her granddaughter to get married this way and instead of them kidnapping her he should of came to her the normal way. (23:15)
(13.)The bride obviously did not want to get married this way, he forced her into accepting the marriage and she even admitted that this upset her. (26:21)
(14.)When the religious official asked the bride if she came her on her own will, she lied and said yes, she most likely did this because she was scared of what would happen to her if she had told the truth, especially since the people surrounding her was the grooms family. (27:43)
(15.)The bride said that if she didn"t take the scarf then the groom"s family wouldn"t of left her alone until she accepted it and the marriage. (27:07)
(16.)The wedding night sheet shows that she was a virgin when the bride and groom got married and that they had consummated their marriage. (35:35)
(17.)The fact that the bride had said no when they kidnapped her shows that she did not want to get married that way to him, she did not give her consent to getting married in this way, even though she did tell the religious official that she came their on her own will, she was lying because she was scared of what may happen to her if she told him that she was dragged there against her will.
(18.)Even though she did eventually agree to get married does not mean she wanted to, she was extremely upset because he forced her to get married this way and she couldn"t say no because if she did what would of happened to her? She kept on saying no, and when they consummated their marriage; he raped her because she had not given her sincere consent.
(19.)The bride was a victim of non-traditional rape.
2. In some cases, both the bride and the groom know each other and have courted around with each other for quite some time. (4:35- 4:51)
3. Most women in the region object to the act because of the humiliation of the being kidnapped, not because they do not want to marry the person who organized the kidnapping. (3:11- 3:14)
4. Widespread revitalization of bridal kidnappings within the cities of Kyrgyzstan because of a motion picture adaptation of these kidnappings in the 2007 film called "Boz Salkyn", which revealed the customs this tradition entails. This was often done in rural areas before the film's initial premiere. (5:00- 5:50)
5. One reason for this revival is because the people want to bring back past demeanors and rituals of their culture. (5:50-6:00)
6.in rural areas, as many as half of all marriages, happen by way of bridal kidnapping. (2:45)
7. Majority of police and elected officials don't even know if it is illegal, however, if it is found to be illegal, then it is deemed as a traditional act. (3:26- 3:40)
8. Western ideals stigmatize the act of bridal kidnappings, however the ideals themselves have nothing lot offer to their culture besides same sex marriage, divorce, orphans, HIV spreading, narcotics, violence and brutality. These things they are not accustomed to at all. (6:00- 6:21)
9. The revitalization of this tradition is evident, even as far as music that is inspired by the act of bridal kidnapping is playing on a radio as a groom is on his way with a kidnapping party to go claim his bride-to-be. (9:27-10:57)
10. The overall mentality of these kidnappings is first derived from a formal (western) proposal. When a man proposes, he is usually met with a negative answer, although what they really mean is "Yes, I will marry you." If the answer is No, then the answer is genuine, if Yes, it would only mean if the woman is desperate to get married. (16:00- 16:23)
11. After the bride has said yes, the groomsmen go the house of the bride's side seeking forgiveness for the kidnapping while bearing gifts of food. (20:35- 23:15)
12. The bride eventually stops resisting from the initial kidnapping, making it evident of her acceptance of the marriage. (15:30)
13. In some cases, the families knew each other and had prior knowledge of this arrangement for a long time. (22:17)
14. In this case, the bride confesses that she did want to get married eventually but just not so soon. She also accepted this marriage due to the fact that she was raised on this tradition. (26:50)
15. A rapport of this theme was already established between the bride and groom prior to the kidnapping. (26:10)
16. The after the wedding night, evidence of consummation must be disclosed to the village for proof that the bride was a virgin. If there is proof, it is then hung on a clothesline for all to see. (30:39)
17. If the bride does not resist her being betrothed, then that does not constitute rape. (27:40)
It is true that the bride and the groom in this instance knew each other, and were dating, but that does not mean he did not rape her. In non-traditional rape, the two people who are involved know each other, even if they were husband and wife. She resisted the marriage, and put up a fight when they kidnapped her, that clearly is her not giving consent to getting married (14:25). If she was not giving her consent then, what makes anyone believe that she wanted to have sex with him after the wedding? She did say to the wedding official that she came on her own will, but if she had said no and that she was kidnapped there is a possibility of something worse happening to her like the groom killing her (27:43). She was put in a bad situation as soon as the groom had kidnapped her.
You claim that the bride said no to the marriage and resisted in order to seem genuine, meanwhile she stated that she did not want to get married this way, the groom had promised to do it a different way (16:23). She did not say no because she didn"t want to seem desperate, she said no because this is not how she wanted to be married. Yes she loved the guy and wanted to spend the rest of her life with him, but even husbands who love their wives rape them. The bride saying no does mean that she wanted to say yes and be married to him. The bride said no because she didn"t want to be kidnapped, she only accepted the bridal scarf eventually because she figured she had no other way out. Yes, this bridal kidnapping is a part of their tradition, but that does not mean that every bride, especially this bride, who wanted to finish her schooling wanted to be married this way.
If her family were aware of it, which seems to be likely, it doesn"t mean the bride was not raped. The family may have given the groom their permission, and accepted his forgiveness for kidnapping their daughter but the family is not the daughter. The daughter is the one who has to give her consent to the marriage and the sexual intercourse then ensues. She clearly said no to marriage but eventually caved because she realized there was no other way since the groom"s family would not stop trying to convince her that it is the right thing to do. Since the bride had said no, and tried to fight off the kidnapping party in the van, when the bride and groom consummated their marriage, she was raped.
The hanging of the wedding sheet was the evidence of the rape occurring. The bride was a virgin, and the groom took away her virginity when he raped her. (35:35) She had not given her consent to the marriage, so she did not consent to having sex with him on their wedding night. This was clearly rape.
Another point is that the family would have let her go anyway, if she had accepted another man"s attempt at kidnapping her, spend the night at his house. Then and only then would they have let her go because after that she would be deemed to be an "unclean girl" and then she will have to marry the person who kidnapped her instead of the initial person who wants to kidnap her in the first place. As long as the pair knew each other and established a rapport on this basis of them marrying each other then the kidnapping would mean no difference-(26:10) because over half of the marriages that occur within the region, over fifty percent of women become betrothed in this manner-(2:45). If the groom would kill the woman he wants to marry, then why would he marry her in the first place? Why subjugate women to such an ordeal if you are just going to kill her? And where exactly does the groom even remotely threaten his fianc" if she does not go through with the wedding? However, the actual claim towards the theme of why she said no was not meant only for her, but of the overall mentality of both the men and women of Kyrgyzstan-(16:00-16:23).
If she did not want to get married to this person in that way in the first place, then she should have left the man altogether because being that the bridal kidnappings are a steeple of the regions traditional values. During the Cold War regime, there was a rise on the extinguishing of this practice. It started with legislation indicating that they were stopping the betrothing of underage girls and start sending them, along with the boys, off to state funded education programs so the children can finish school and possibly, in their perspective futures, go off to and study at university-(23:50-2403).
It does not matter if he would of let her go, she still said no to the marriage. Even if she were just saying no to look pure for the groom and her family, why would she admit that she did not want to get married yet? Or that she only took the scarf because the family would not leave her alone if she didn"t? (26:50) If she wanted to get married to him, she wouldn"t of claimed that she wasn"t ready to get married at this time. She only agreed to it because she had too. If she had kept saying no, the groom"s family would of kept on trying to get her to accept the scarf until she did accept it. When she first arrived at the groom"s home she resisted, giving her answer as no. Clearly she did not want to get married to him this way, regardless of if she had plans to get married to him, she did not want to marry him at that exact moment.
She told him that she did not want to get married this way and he had promised her that he would do it another way (26:50). It is a tradition in the family but it does not mean it had to be upheld. The bride did not want to be kidnapped even though it was a part of tradition. The Bride had already explained to him that she did not want to get married this way and he knew that, he told her he wouldn"t do it but yet he did it anyway. This is still non-traditional rape, she said no to the marriage. She kicked, screamed and tried to fight to get out of the van, she did not want to get married to him, but she was forced to under coercion. If she did not accept the bridal scarf, his family wouldn"t leave her alone until she did. Yes, she did know the groom, but other women who have been non-traditionally raped also knew their attackers and in most cases the women were attacked by their husbands. (167.5.4)
What really matters here is if she was not ready in the first place, why would her and the groom be even remotely mentioning the subject of marriage in any sort of context of their relationship? Even if the family was not going to let up on the subject, marriage is a big deal period if you mention it in any family. People are going to wonder why nothing is going on if there is even a single whisper of marriage within the family and evidence of a stalemate in the what's supposed to be a very joyous and fruitful occasion. If she really was not ready for marriage, then there should not be any mention of it. There is nothing to gain on any side of the spectrum for there to be any sort of fabrication of intention in such a subject.
In 26:50 there was no mention of the groom promising whether or not he would marry her that way. It was a scene that was a part of the wedding ceremony. Within the clip we see the bride and groom together in a tent, side by side facing the local Imam (Muslim Priest) who is presiding the wedding ceremony, and at this moment the bride is confirming that she is accepting this wedding proposal with sound mind and of her on recognizance. The tradition of bridal kidnapping is of the region's traditional notions, not just of the families themselves. After the events that occurred during the Cold War, bridal kidnappings has been on a steady rise back into the status quo from legislative persecution, due to the amount of marriages that happen this way in the rural areas Because of the film adaptation of these kidnappings "Boz Salkyn", the general public is more aware of these occurrences happening within the city limits now than in rural areas. I would also like to add how these kidnappings are used as innuendoes in pop culture music, therefore, making it evident that bridal kidnappings are as autonomous as a reflex on the human body. They just happen.
How do you know that she didn"t recognize anyone in that van? Does she have to say her fianc"s name in order to know he is there? No she does not. Yes, she was calling for her mother because she did not want to be kidnapped or married. She was well aware of the fact that she was being kidnapped, when she got to the groom"s house she recognized what was happening and still kept saying no, it is evident that she did not want to get married to him under these circumstances. (14:55) Marriage can come up at anytime, if they did talk about it, it does not mean that she wanted to get married at that exact moment. They have talked about marriage before and when they did he promised her that he would not kidnap her, they would get married in a different way. (26:10) Even if she was ready to get married, which she states that she was not ready to be married (26:50) her saying no when they tried to put the bridal scarf on her is her not giving consent to the marriage. (14:55)
I was mistaken, it was not at 26:50, it was at 26:10 which the groom had promised that he would find another way for them to get married. At 26:50 is when she says that she only accepted the bridal scarf because the families wouldn"t leave her alone unless she did so. (26:50)
She said no to the marriage, she was coerced into saying yes to the bridal scarf because she knew the family would not stop unless she accepted it. Regardless if they had previous plans to get married, when they consummated the marriage, he raped her. She said no, she fought to try and get out of the car, she did not want to be there, she did not want to marry him that way and he non-traditionally raped her. Non-traditional rape is when the two people know each other but the male uses coercion to force the female into bed, which exactly what he did. Regardless of tradition, the bride did not want to get married this way, she did not to be married yet, but he forced her into getting married, and that means he raped her. She clearly said no, she even said she did not want to be married yet and he still forced her to do it. If he had kept his promise and did it another way then he wouldn"t of raped her, but since he did kidnap her, and did not let her go when she had said no, he forced her into the marriage and that constitutes rape because she did not give her consent to the marriage.
Excuse me? How did I know that she did not recognize anyone in the van? Because it is right within the clip of this documentary, that is how I know. And of course she has to call out her fiance's name, that establishes that she then knows why she is being kidnapped. It would have saved her her efforts of struggling throughout the whole rise in the van. She was panicking. And yes, I can agree with what you are saying about her struggling to get away from a kidnapping attempt, but not your claim on that is her struggling to get away from a marriage. Her calling out to her mother is a general and natural cry for help because it is our mothers who are usually doing all the protecting in our early years, not a plea in order not to go through an arranged BRIDAL kidnapping. Like I said, it is a natural reaction. I mean, wouldn't you call out for someone for cares for you when you are going through a scary mess as a kidnapping?
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