The Instigator
bubbatheclown
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
CJKAllstar
Con (against)
Winning
9 Points

Rapists Are Victims

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
CJKAllstar
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/22/2014 Category: People
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,027 times Debate No: 49686
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (12)
Votes (3)

 

bubbatheclown

Pro

First round is for acceptance, I have burden of proof. No trolling, no people who intentionally misspell words, no sexually-explicit material, no violent threats, and no profanity, please.

Before we begin, I would like to say that I am well aware this debate will either be ignored or cause me to receive a HUGE amount of flak from angry users. Regardless, I have started this debate, and I ask that only opponents who are AT LEAST decent at debating accept this.

I await a worthy challenger.
CJKAllstar

Con

I accept, but the definitions need to be here.

Rapist - "A person, typically a man, who commits rape."
Victim - "A person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action."

Sources:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com...
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com...;
Debate Round No. 1
bubbatheclown

Pro

Before I begin, I would like to say that:
A. Them being victims themselves does not excuse their sexual assaults upon their victims.
B. When I refer to the rapists as victims, I am not referring to them being victims of physical trauma; you will find out what I'm talking about soon enough.

Now, I will begin.

Males of virtually all species, to put this as mildly as I can, have strong desires to "mate" with females of their species. Many females. Human males are no exception. If you're an evolutionist, you'll say this is because of billions of years of evolution. If you're a Christian, you'll say that regardless why this is true, it is indeed the case, as the Bible itself has admitted in many verses concerning lust.
So, you're a human male. You wanna "mate" with a human female. You've got three options:
A. You stay chaste
B. You get married
C. You follow your primal mating instincts outside of marriage, through promiscuous behavior

B is good, and there's nothing wrong with A. But many men choose C, because it allows them to indulge in their lust the most.

Now, in the good 'ole 1950s, most men either married or remained chaste. It was pretty easy, considering that it was considered wicked for a woman to show anything above the skirt.

HOWEVER, our culture doesn't make Option A easy at all. Here's what I mean.
You wanna turn the TV on to watch a live action adult show? Sure. Once every three episodes somebody's gonna "hook up." You wanna turn to the anime channel so that you can watch Pokemon/Digimon/Beyblades? Oops, you got the time wrong. Pokemon's not going to play for another 30 minutes. Until then, sit down and watch this episode of this Hentai (pornographic anime) show. Oh, so you wanna surf the web? Sure thing, but try not to click that link for the porn website or try not to look at the sexually-explicit WoW advertisement.
And when you're a guy who wants to abstain from following your primal mating instincts, there sure is a heck of a lot of temptation everywhere.EVERYWHERE. And when you see sexually explicit stuff, it's gonna get 'ya all excited and you're gonna want to view sexually-explicit material or "mate" with somebody. And here's the bad part: whenever you give in, next time it's gonna be a little bit harder to resist.
And even if you can get around all this temptation, all your friends have done it...several times. It's considered cool with your circle of friends. So, you give in to peer pressure...and you become hooked.

Of course, you could choose Option B. But do you really wanna do that? Your wife's gonna want to have kids, and you don't want kids. You don't want to give up playing Call of Duty: MW3. You don't want to settle down.

So clearly, our culture either discourages options A and B or it makes them harder to carry through. Many men resort to Option C. They watch porn or they "hook up" with a hundred different girls in his lifetime.

So you're hooked, and ya wanna keep "mating" or watching porn. But what happens when that gets old? The brain, after all, has a tricky way of making fun things seem dull after you've done it repetiitively.
So whatcha gonna do? You're gonna want to do something exciting, something new. Oh, I know! How about rape? Sounds exciting and new, right?

Joking beside, our culture bombards all our men, young and old, (who are particularly suceptible to it) with sexually-explicit material. Inevitably, somebody's gonna take their pursuits for something sexual a bit too far. Frankly, with such a high percentage of our population addicted to porn, I'm surprised that number isn't higher!

I have to give up the computer now, but i'll say some more in my next round.
CJKAllstar

Con

"Before I begin, I would like to say that:
A. Them being victims themselves does not excuse their sexual assaults upon their victims.
B. When I refer to the rapists as victims, I am not referring to them being victims of physical trauma; you will find out what I'm talking about soon enough.

Now, I will begin.

Males of virtually all species, to put this as mildly as I can, have strong desires to "mate" with females of their species. Many females. Human males are no exception. If you're an evolutionist, you'll say this is because of billions of years of evolution. If you're a Christian, you'll say that regardless why this is true, it is indeed the case, as the Bible itself has admitted in many verses concerning lust.
So, you're a human male. You wanna "mate" with a human female. You've got three options:
A. You stay chaste
B. You get married
C. You follow your primal mating instincts outside of marriage, through promiscuous behavior

B is good, and there's nothing wrong with A. But many men choose C, because it allows them to indulge in their lust the most.

Now, in the good 'ole 1950s, most men either married or remained chaste. It was pretty easy, considering that it was considered wicked for a woman to show anything above the skirt.

HOWEVER, our culture doesn't make Option A easy at all. Here's what I mean.
You wanna turn the TV on to watch a live action adult show? Sure. Once every three episodes somebody's gonna "hook up." You wanna turn to the anime channel so that you can watch Pokemon/Digimon/Beyblades? Oops, you got the time wrong. Pokemon's not going to play for another 30 minutes. Until then, sit down and watch this episode of this Hentai (pornographic anime) show. Oh, so you wanna surf the web? Sure thing, but try not to click that link for the porn website or try not to look at the sexually-explicit WoW advertisement.
And when you're a guy who wants to abstain from following your primal mating instincts, there sure is a heck of a lot of temptation everywhere.EVERYWHERE. And when you see sexually explicit stuff, it's gonna get 'ya all excited and you're gonna want to view sexually-explicit material or "mate" with somebody. And here's the bad part: whenever you give in, next time it's gonna be a little bit harder to resist.
And even if you can get around all this temptation, all your friends have done it...several times. It's considered cool with your circle of friends. So, you give in to peer pressure...and you become hooked.

Of course, you could choose Option B. But do you really wanna do that? Your wife's gonna want to have kids, and you don't want kids. You don't want to give up playing Call of Duty: MW3. You don't want to settle down.

So clearly, our culture either discourages options A and B or it makes them harder to carry through. Many men resort to Option C. They watch porn or they "hook up" with a hundred different girls in his lifetime.

So you're hooked, and ya wanna keep "mating" or watching porn. But what happens when that gets old? The brain, after all, has a tricky way of making fun things seem dull after you've done it repetitively.
So whatcha gonna do? You're gonna want to do something exciting, something new. Oh, I know! How about rape? Sounds exciting and new, right?

Joking beside, our culture bombards all our men, young and old, (who are particularly suceptible to it) with sexually-explicit material. Inevitably, somebody's gonna take their pursuits for something sexual a bit too far. Frankly, with such a high percentage of our population addicted to porn, I'm surprised that number isn't higher!

I have to give up the computer now, but i'll say some more in my next round."

What you have said makes a lot of sense, and is logically viable, and probably true in some cases, but the motion is, "Rapists are Victims", thus you had the BOP to prove why all rapists are victims. You have given a reason why that may be so, but of course then you are saying this is true for every single rapist. I do not deny that society has decided to use sex to win men over until the point it has become the norm, and I do not deny that it is a cause of rape, in fact - http://www.bbc.co.uk... is an example of what you are saying. But again, this isn't neccesarily true, so to win this argument I simply need to find examples which do not fit this, then your argument is false.

Well first of all there is correctional rape, very common in the likes of Uganda in which the person has no other intent in rape than to turn a homosexual/bisexual person into a heterosexual. Typically done by straight males to lesbian females. Now, are these rapists victims? Well no, as they did not have any sexual desires, so this whole notion is incorrect. But of course, if you state it is just an anomaly, which it woud not be as it is a large problem in Africa, then there is also this interesting article. http://devpolicy.org...

It shows a variety of other reasons aside for this. We can include hatred against women, horrible childhood, intoxication, peer pressure/peer group, a simply malicious act of revenge, all of these are reasons, which do not contain your idea. Whilst it is a true reason, it does not prove that all rapists are victims, or the average rapist is a victim of this, as with the latter you simply do not have evidence. But thank you for your point.


Sources:
http://www.independent.co.uk...;
Debate Round No. 2
bubbatheclown

Pro

Before I begin, I would like to say that the resolution of this debate is "Rapists are Victims." It is not "All Rapists are Victims." Therefore, it would not be a loss for me to admit there are exceptions to my claim.
You talked about rape in Uganda which attempts to make homosexuals straight. I believe such a thing can be done, but definitely not through rape.
I was referring to men who raped men/women with sexual motives, though perhaps I should've made this more clear at the beginning of the debate.

Let's take black people. The majority of incarcerated rapists are black according to this source:
http://budokan.wcart.net...
If you don't like this source, just let me say that it was shockingly difficult to find statistics on this.
Now, let's take a look at Black Matriarchy. In 2011, 72% of Black babies in the United States were born to unwed mothers
http://en.wikipedia.org...
I conclude that without fathers, many young black males (YBM) often are not adequately taught a sense of right and wrong, and thus they don't see rape as a serious crime.
Do not interpret this as racist; I am merely stating facts.

Women's Role:

"22% who have sent or posted nude or semi-nude pictures or video of themselves: 22% of teen girls; 11% of girls ages 13-16"
Source: http://www.safecom.net...
Many (though not the majority) women INTENTIONALLY post suggestive photos of themselves! I understand that NO woman wants to be raped (unless they're really, really messed up in the head), but in a way many of them are encouraging it.

Ultimately, I conclude that many men in today's American culture are victims of an increasingly sexual society, and that they are also victims of a society where many young people are not adequately taught right and wrong.
I await my opponent's response.
CJKAllstar

Con

"Before I begin, I would like to say that the resolution of this debate is "Rapists are Victims." It is not "All Rapists are Victims." Therefore, it would not be a loss for me to admit there are exceptions to my claim.
You talked about rape in Uganda which attempts to make homosexuals straight. I believe such a thing can be done, but definitely not through rape.
I was referring to men who raped men/women with sexual motives, though perhaps I should've made this more clear at the beginning of the debate.

Let's take black people. The majority of incarcerated rapists are black according to this source:
http://budokan.wcart.net......
If you don't like this source, just let me say that it was shockingly difficult to find statistics on this.
Now, let's take a look at Black Matriarchy. In 2011, 72% of Black babies in the United States were born to unwed mothers
http://en.wikipedia.org......
I conclude that without fathers, many young black males (YBM) often are not adequately taught a sense of right and wrong, and thus they don't see rape as a serious crime.
Do not interpret this as racist; I am merely stating facts.

Women's Role:

"22% who have sent or posted nude or semi-nude pictures or video of themselves: 22% of teen girls; 11% of girls ages 13-16"
Source: http://www.safecom.net......
Many (though not the majority) women INTENTIONALLY post suggestive photos of themselves! I understand that NO woman wants to be raped (unless they're really, really messed up in the head), but in a way many of them are encouraging it.

Ultimately, I conclude that many men in today's American culture are victims of an increasingly sexual society, and that they are also victims of a society where many young people are not adequately taught right and wrong.
I await my opponent's response."

First of all, you have missed my point. To state that, rapists are victims, using the Oxford Dictionaries definition is to state that those who commit rape are victims. This means anyone who commits rape is a victim, even if you accept anomalies, your motion at least means the general population of rapists are victims due to the forcing of sex upon them. My stance is that this isn't true for the majority thus the motion isn't true. And for that, I will simply give some examples. But your motion was rapists are victims, you cannot cherrypick thus correctional rape and all types must count, you cannot change the motion halfway, that is semantics.

First of all Saudi Arabia. This country follows Sharia law and all women must wear at least a hijab and a loose dress. The exploitation of women and the sexualisation of marketing we see in the western world is not present there on such a large scale. In fact it is so conservative women cannot drive. We don't see sex in marketing in Saudi Arabia, as frankly it is illegal. So, the statistics? 58.6 per 100,000 people are raped yearly in Saudia Arabia, as of 2006, and it is increasing. That is 16577 people were raped, without an influence or "victimization" of women, as women in Saudi Arabia cannot pose nude. Well, are these rapists victims? They may rape for sexual pleasure, or correctional, or just for the fun of it, but in any of these ways, it could not have been due to society causing this. 16577 rape victims is a lot. United Nations statistics of 65 countries show that in these 250,000 rapes are commited annually.

Now, in the off chance that you dismiss this simply as an anomaly, we can head over to India. Second most populous country in the world, with 25,000 rapes in 2012. Now, let us take Asia in general. Viewed here, http://www.bbc.co.uk... a report of rape. In Bougainville, 12% of men have raped. That is 21019 people. Papa New Guinea is an LEDC and less likely to have this sexual influence. I do not know how many statistics I need to show to prove that a lot of rapists aren't victims to society as their society hasn't fully intergrated this, it is a western thing. Hopefully I have shown there are enough rapists who aren't victims of this to make the motion invalid. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 3
bubbatheclown

Pro

Fine then. Based on semantics and the fact that perhaps I should've worded this debate differently but didn't, I concede victory to Con.
CJKAllstar

Con

Thank you for this debate. It was great.
Debate Round No. 4
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by bubbatheclown 3 years ago
bubbatheclown
Another way to illustrate my point is to imagine a society:
Imagine a society where kleptomaniacs are told that stealing is wrong, but yet everybody leaves their shiny objects unattended in public and public billboards show people wearing fancy bling with captions saying "Steal Me" and commercials show pickpockets having a blast stealing things.
THAT's what it's like.
Posted by bubbatheclown 3 years ago
bubbatheclown
I didn't necessarily mean the media; I just meant society. I was referring to TV Shows with sexual themes, video games with sexual themes, internet pornography, etc.
Posted by CJKAllstar 3 years ago
CJKAllstar
To be honest though, even if you specified it to American men with sexual motives, there is no proof that it was caused by the media. It can happen, but to state it happens to rapists in general needs solid proof.
Posted by bubbatheclown 3 years ago
bubbatheclown
When I began this debate, I was referring to American men who raped American women with sexual motives. I did not take into account rape in other countries. I still would've had a chance at this debate had I clarified this at the beginning.
Posted by bubbatheclown 3 years ago
bubbatheclown
As I predicted, people cannot handle somebody taking up the unpopular position, even though I was just playing Devil's Advocate. Yeah, rape is wrong. I said this in my debate. But if you lash out against me simply for playing devil's advocate here, then you are the intolerant one.
Posted by GWL-CPA 3 years ago
GWL-CPA
Pro, you should be permanently ignored as a human being.
Posted by kbub 3 years ago
kbub
Oh, and yes, you're arguments both promote suffering and blame the victims. This is the opposite of what I hope to do at DDO, which means that we are foils.
Posted by kbub 3 years ago
kbub
Bubba--there is an enormous gap between rape and sex. Forget chastity, but never *ever* EVER think that rape is ok.
Posted by bubbatheclown 3 years ago
bubbatheclown
Kind of weak, huh? I had to give the computer over to my little sister, so I couldn't say all that I wanted to say. But the basic idea is that the garbage spewed out by our culture makes chastity harder and harder, and that it lures more and more young men into addictions to sexually-explicit material and sexual behavior.
Posted by saxman 3 years ago
saxman
I think that this argument could be either or.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Wylted 3 years ago
Wylted
bubbatheclownCJKAllstarTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro concedes
Vote Placed by MrDelaney 3 years ago
MrDelaney
bubbatheclownCJKAllstarTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Given that Pro conceded, it seems clear that Con simply had more solid arguments.
Vote Placed by Zarroette 3 years ago
Zarroette
bubbatheclownCJKAllstarTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro concedes in the final round, so Con wins arguments. I found the sources to be roughly the same, in terms of reliability.