Reality is no more important than Fantasy.
This should be fairly self explanatory. I will be debating that Reality and Fantasy are no more important than the other.
First Round: Our Stances and Acceptance.
Second Round: Arguements.
Third Round: Refutations.
Fourth Round: Conclusions.
Reality: That which is physically existing.
Fantasy: That which is imagined and often impossible.
I argue that our imagination, our desires and fantasies are no less important than what is phyisically real.
I do have a wee inquiry about the definitions:
If fantasy is defined as "anything imagined and often impossible" does it not include those things that are mentally concieved/appehended, but nonetheless possible? E.g., the mental apprehension of a car versus an actual car. I think the question arises to establish a clear line between the two, i.e., that even if the fantasy is realistic/possible/could happen, it is nonetheless apparent that it is not happening, and so must be assigned a fantasy.
Reality is defined as those things that are physically existing...so this includes those things are physically evidenced rather than existing? Eg., words don't exist physically but they can be heard, read or spoken and their meaning evokes changes in reality... Or Well...maybe I should allow you to contextualize their meaning in your opening....lol
Let me know what you think...
Thanks for letting me play...
Yeah I like this topic a lot too and its nice to be able to debate it. I agree with your take on the defintions of Fantasy and Reality. Reality being what we physically Know. Fantasy is basically that which is not physically there but as stated: Imagined. It could be possible but the Fantasy is not actually real.
I state that Fantasy is no less important that Reality. Our thoughts, crazy imaginations, that which is intangible but believed in, is no less important than what we know and feel.
The reasoning behind this is: Why is Reality important to begin with? What makes Reality more valuable than Fantasy? I have no answer for this, I look forward to yours. The fact I cannot come up with an answer is the reason why I have drawn up this debate.
Let us look at Reality if it was missing Fantasy. Would we be truly alive? Would Reality be Real? If mankind could not imagine, would we be any different than a rock? What separates us from animals is our ability to think in depth. Our ability to Fantasize. So if we could not do that, would we just be robotic, organisms that follow our basic instincts?
However without Reality, could Fantasy exist? If nothing physically existed, could we have something, a concept, possiblities. Could they exist? I am not sure on this. Do to the fact that I cannot draw a conclusion on whether Fantasy can be independent or not, means there is a better chance this is more viable.
To clarify, I am trying to say that if Reality had no Fantasy, there would be no point. However even with only Fantasy there would still be a point.
For example. Reality is a lot like Minecraft. You have a whole world out there, always different, unexplored. However you don't have a goal. This is where Fantasy comes in, we create our own goals, we design homes, create dungeons, explore the world. Fantasy gives the game Meaning. The actions that we do may be Reality, however the Goal, the idea to reach that Goal is what gives us Purpose. Is accomplishing the Goal important? No it isn't, because once it is accomplished you lose a Goal. It becomes Reality, however when you are still striving for it, that is when it is important. Fantasy gives Reality purpose.
This is why I argue that Reality is no more important than Fantasy.
One might say no matter what you Fantasize, it doesn't matter. However I say that is wrong. You may think that what is physically done and proven is more important than something thought up and not accomplished. But so what? I say "So what" in regards to the fact of something being done in Reality. Why does it matter if something actually happens? This goes back to my previous questions. Why does Reality Matter? Why do we care what is real? However if you imagine something, you gain hope, you gain joy, you gain purpose. It is not accomplishing an act that is important. Because what happens in Reality does not matter. Why does Progress in Reality matter? Why do Human lives have value? None of these answers lie in Reality, but our Fantasies. Why does our instinct strive to survive? Why does Survival Matter? These are all things that Reality cannot answer.
You can say that Reality gives rise to Fantasy, however do we truly know that? Do we know that Fantasy requires Reality? Some theories state: "Consciousness creates reality". “It was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness.” (Eugene Wigner) What if our minds, our Fantasy gave rise to Reality?
Here are some examples: Sight, The Idea of Sight. Is it physical? No it is not. Light refraction in our eyes and creating patterns to our brain gives rise to an imaginary image of "Sight". The ability to image something in your mind, is what Sight is. We are not "seeing" the world around us, we are Feeling the light in our eyes. So do we know what Reality really looks like? No, it is created by how we perceive it. How our minds imagine it around us. Same goes for Hearing, we do not "Hear". Our eardrums feel the impacts and vibrations of the atoms in the air that we call sound. Our brain imagines what it means.
What I am getting at is, Reality is created by what we think it is. We cannot see some things and cannot feel somethings. If we cannot imagine it, it is not real. "I think, therefore I am." (René Descartes) I think there is more to this quote than meets the eye. It is literal. Me being Real does not cause me. It is my thoughts that create me.
Does Progress of Reality matter? No it does not, however Progress of our thoughts, Progress of what we can imagine. That is what matters. Fantasy gives us Goals. You would think we would run out, however Life is like a Brain Storm. With each new idea, each new Fantasy, we get a new topic. Us humans break that topic down and research every small bit of it. This may give us even more ideas and Goals. However if there was just Reality, we would be lost. Without Goal. Reality with no Fantasy would be like being a Hollow in Dark Souls. Without Goal, and yet you just are. Without thought, there is no difference between Life and Death, no difference between You and a Rock.
So what came first Reality or Fantasy. I am not sure, however the two have been intertwined and cannot exist without the other. I believe that it depends on how many people believe a certain thing. This is something that is a lot more than just a thought teaser. If Fantasy is the giver of Purpose, and Reality is the outcome of trying to reach that Destination. Maybe we could explain everything that we do not know. Like why do particles react differently when observed by a human? A study showed that when electrons were observed by a machine the eletrons acted as normal particles. However when a human was there, they acted as Waves. Maybe the beliefs of the man himself changed the outcome. There is no conclusive proof on this phenomon, basically we don't know what caused it. There are many things like this, when a bunch of people come together to Pray, Wish, Scream their Desires. Things like Miracles have been known to occur. What if the cause of the Miracle was the very fact that they believed. For example: My Parents believed with all their might that they would have a Daughter first, then two boys. And the second boy would have blue eyes. How they could know this, I don't know. But they were right. My Sister was the eldest, then my Brother and then me who had blue eyes.
Fantasy being what makes Reality explains Religion, Atheism, or any belief out there. Every Belief might be true. It just depends on how much you believe it. This might be why the Bible states that with Faith a Man can move a Mountain. Or that Anything is possible for Mankind when they come together. I understand this might be Paradoxal, such as our thoughts now create what created us. However Time is something that is Man-Made. So if we can create a system of Time, who is to say our Fantasies are not something beyond that.
However even without all of that I have said. One thing stands true. Without our Fantasy, Reality would not be what it is. Without Fantasy, Life would be not. They would be no purpose, they would be no differences. Without imagination, without thought, without Fantasy, we would not percieve the world how we do. Even when it comes to touching something, its textures, hardness, ect.... Everything about it, is just how we percieve it in our mind. Is this how Miracle where made? How the impossible was possible? Because we had Faith? Because we could Fantasize it? Bottom Line is: Reality holds no importance without Fantasy, henceforth Fantasy is no less important than Reality.
Can you Convince me why Reality is more important than Fantasy?
I too am unsure as to the purpose behind the imagination, but as this is a fun exploration, I will share my informal observations, as you have done. The best place to start is consciousness/selfhood, which originates from our realizing what we are not (as opposed to some intrinsic 'I'ness) via experience that teaches us that our instinctive motive (internal), holds no influence over the external world e.g., the mere desire for food, does not result in satiation. So I belive this is where the 'I' versus 'other' comes from, along with the realization that we must engage the 'other'/reality to preserve the self. So for me, it remains a mechanism for survival. As we have become less preoccupied with securing our immediate safety, man has been able to ruminate more which allows us to ponder questions on meaning, reality,etc., but our hardwiring retains the same end (at this point in human evolution). We have simply moved toward the preservation of our intangible selves/personality.
Let us look at Reality if it was missing Fantasy...If mankind could not imagine, would we be any different than a rock? What separates us from animals is our ability to think in depth...Fantasize. So if we could not do that, would we just be robotic organisms that follow our basic instincts? I accept the distinction that our ability to reason/rationalize (which is included in our definition of fantasy for the purpose of this debate) sets us apart. What is problematic for me is when you go on to say, "..if we could not do that, would we just be robotic," and " if Reality had no Fantasy, there would be no point," and also further down, "Reality holds no importance without Fantasy," or "...if there was just Reality, we would be lost. Without Goal...no difference between You and a Rock." But this is not, at all, the picture we get of animals and nature. There is indeed a point, as animals have specific motive. Animals are not robotic, nor are they like rocks, awaiting the external world to act upon them. They search for food, they procreate and nurture their young, and they adapt to many changes in their environment, so if we agree that this is what is separates them from man, then its seems to me that our species would indeed still have a point, i.e., survival, and as stated above survival which requires us to procure what we need from the external world (outside ourselves).
If nothing physically existed, could we have something, a concept, possiblities. Could they exist? I am not sure on this. Do to the fact that I cannot draw a conclusion on whether Fantasy can be independent or not, means there is a better chance this is more viable.
Because we have yet to verify the existence of pure consciousness, I believe the existence of a desembodied mind is improbable. Now if this is you view, then I would love to see evidence of such (I would lap it up :-), however, without proof, I find this line of inquiry to be, appropriately, just fantasy..lol. Fantasy seems independent because it does not look to reality to validate itself. Whatever we can conjure, can be entertained at length our minds, because they are abstractions, and we know they are abstractions precisely because they haven't been tied down. This is how fantasy enraptures and consumes us. However, we must also note our compulsion toward reality i.e., that however lovely the flights of fantasy, we crave their realization. This I believe, is why so many things that were once only imagined, have become a reality. It may be beautiful, but it is not real to us until we engage the outside world, until we and others can see the products of our mind out in the light of day.
Reality is a lot like Minecraft...you don't have a goal. I think there is definitely a goal in Minecraft, It is so close to what we do in reality that it seems nonexistent, but it is just tacit. We take raw materials from our environment and make our material world; it is plays/activates our survival instinct, hence its popularity. I also don't believe that goals can exist without reality. Goals are those things that we want make 'occur,' 'happen' or 'realize'. When we establish a goal, we simultaneously apprehend the possible actions and consequences required to reach the goal. These actions and consequences or cause and effect,are the rules of engagement with the real world.
You may think that what is physically done and proven is more important than something thought up and not accomplished. ...so what in regards to the fact of something being done in Reality. Why does it matter if something actually happens?... These are all things that Reality cannot answer.
So if you reject the validity of reality, then I must ask you how do we learn. Do new persectives or knowledge just crop up in our heads, or are they the product of some engagement with other people or things? I know there have been those cases where people have a perspective so unique that we are puzzled as to where the knowledge came from, but these were definitely not people stuck in a dark whole with no contact with the external world. I believe in some subjectivity of reality, but I don't believe it is wholly subjective. I say this because if reality if it were so, a person who lacks one or more senses would never come to recognize and adapt to accommodate the lack of that sense. So when you say, ...Sight, The Idea of Sight. Is it physical? No it is not...imaginary image of "Sight". I must ask you how a blind person, who can (at most) only conjure mental images, must still yield to the physical world i.e, just because he cannot see the car does not make him able to dismiss its physical presence. This is something that blind people know and adapt accordingly. If I hold an image of a car in my hand, will my perception allow me to pick up an actual car between my thumb and forefinger? This is what I mean by the anchoring of subjectivity with actions and consequences. The blind man may not even know it is a car, but he will have to reason that something is blocking his path.
Do we know that Fantasy requires Reality? Some theories state: "Consciousness creates reality". “It was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics ... without reference to consciousness.” (Eugene Wigner) I don't see how this contradicts with my definition of the construction of reality. I see it as a precursor to them both. As stated above, a degree of subjectivity is not at all problematic. Total subjectivity (total mental fabrication) however, creates the question of the senses. Knowing the economical-tendencies of nature, why would we have so many sensory receptors when it was not necessary for us to survive or if we could obtain the means of sustenance from our minds, what is the point of all the knowledge we have gained via these receptors?
"I think, therefore I am."... Me being Real does not cause me. It is my thoughts that create me. The presupposition of this assertion is consciousness i.e, even before one 'thinks' to affirm his existence, he must be conscious i.e, he must be self-aware (the 'I'). Consciousness is the awareness of reality (the external world) we cannot have a self without an awareness of other. So even before 'think' he has said I which is an acknowledgement of reality.
Fantasy being what makes Reality explains Religion, Atheism, or any belief out there....Time is something that is Man-Made. So if we can create a system of Time.. I never thought that religion was the result of fantasy, but rather our rationalization to understand the world. Man makes his material world to survive,and then generalizes his 'maker' tendencies to nature. Man didn't make nature, so some greater maker, must've made man and nature. Time is also based in reality. We saw the movement of the sun/moon and the change of the seasons and measured it for practical purposes. Just because minutes and hours (increments) didn't exist does not mean that we were unaware of changes in nature over time...
You state that without Fantasy we would still have the instinctual desire to survive. Tell me, what makes this desire to survive? What makes us have this instinct? Where does it come from? Freud argued it came from our desire of Pleasure vs Pain and our desire to Reproduce so the species as a whole would survive. However this is circiual thinking as he is stating we want to survive because we want others to survive. So why does instinct want to survive? Why would Evolution form to survive? Unless there was some sort of conscious desire and Fantasical thoughts that gave us purpose? So I still agrue that without Fantasy we would be without Purpose, in fact even the animals would. You make a point that animals are not robotic, and that is because they follow their instincts. So what made these instincts? Why does Instinct want? You see Instinct is something that drives us, but what is the engine for that? Again it is only our thoughts that power this, instinct is strong within us all because we all believe it so much. It is something almost everyone believes, and in a sense it is a self fulfilling prophesy.
An example of people escaping or lessening the affects of Instinct by their pure belief and thought patterns are Buddist Monks.
"Buddhist monks have long been admired for their emotional control, and a previous MIT conference participant, Paul Ekman, PhD, a psychology professor at the University of California, San Francisco School of Medicine, thinks exploration of this skill may help psychologists better understand ways people can deal with unpleasant emotions." (Richard Davidson). Buddist Monks are striving for a complete stable form of Nirvana. Basically the attempt to fade away into nothingness. Monks are known for many odd and amazing feats, such as a Three Inch Punch doing damage equal to two 130 mile per hour cars crashing into each other. Or pulling a bus full of people by their ear, or crouch; Yes that happened, he was nicknamed the "Iron Crouch". I understand these things don't prove my point. However it is apparent that the mind has power over reality.
As for the requirement for "I"-ness, When he said "I think, therefore I am" He does indeed state "I" first. You would assume this means he is acknowledging he is physically real. However not only would this defeat the point of the rest of his quote but stating that he is "I" could also be refering to his mental self. The him that is not physically there. "I" (Nonphysically) think, therefore "I" (Physically) am. Let us ask the speaker of the Quote? "I supposed that all the objects (presentations) that had ever entered into my mind when awake, had in them no more truth than the illusions of my dreams." It seems his quote very well meant what I had intended for it. That what we see and the images of this world or no more important than what we dream and create in our minds of our own will.
As for the validty of Reality. It is neither useless nor important. Why is this? Because in Reality we still can create our own purpose using our Fantasies. However again without this ability to Fantasize, we would be simply pointless. Even instinct has a Fantasical idea behind it. Animals can indeed think, they may not be able to think in depth, but we all know that dogs dream and run in their sleep. Animals can dream. Hence animals also can Fantasize. It was wrong of me to compare a human without Fantasy to an animal. Because we all can dream. So without Fantasy we would most likely all die off. Because their would be no purpose, nor even the desire to survive. It begs the question of whether Reality would even exist. If no one could experince or imagine, or even think about reality or themself. Would it really be there? Is it not just a colletive mass of our thoughts together? We gain thoughts by like I said, other peoples thoughts. We are like a Brain Storm, we continuosly give each other new idea and topics. How do we do this? Well techincally, I say something or do something, then someone else is mind perceive what I have done and they image it in their head and then learn it.
“I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” – Max Planck, theoretical physicist who originated quantum theory, which won him the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1918
As for a Blind Man, his reality is greatly different from our, however you missed the part where I went on with the same explanation for every sense. Hearing, Touch, Taste, Smell, Sight. A Blind man is missing Sight, but may be able to Hear, Taste, Smell, Touch. Hence he can still perceive Reality with his mind. Infact Reality would be greatly dependent on those things. In fact by being blind the lose a part of Reality, Light. They cannot see light and lose its reality. However it is still there and can affect us all because so many do see it. However for someone completely brain dead, with no senses. For them, there would be no Reality. They would most likely be in a state of absolute nothingness.
As for you imaging a car to pick up. If enough people believed that strong enough, than it may very well happen. Who knows maybe you would be able to end up seeing something and feeling something like a car that you imagine. However you may be classifyed as delusional. However many people do believe so strongly about things that it consumes them. It traps them and they can't even escape their own mind. This is where I believe Reality is Subjective. It is in a sense like a Video Game when it Lags. One person is moving from Point A to Point B, however everyone else sees him still at Point A. We don't see the person in the reality they are in, however there mind could be taking them anywhere, and what is in their mind is no less real than what is truly real.
Now for a example of either a God, or my idea, or Both. The Miracle of the Sun. For some reason not matter know of this. However the 13th of October 1917. Over 100,000 people, news reporters and all, had come to Fatima Portugal. They went there for a simply reason, three shepards had told them that a Miracle would occur. These 100,000 people all greatly believed this would happen and waited. Ten miniutes after they had arrived it occured. "According to many witnesses, after a period of rain, the dark clouds broke and the sun appeared as an opaque, spinning disc in the sky. It was said to be significantly duller than normal, and to cast multicolored lights across the landscape, the people, and the surrounding clouds. The sun was then reported to have careened towards the earth before zig-zagging back to its normal position. Witnesses reported that their previously wet clothes became "suddenly and completely dry, as well as the wet and muddy ground that had been previously soaked because of the rain that had been falling"." That does sound normal to me at all... I mean the Sun zig zagging across the Sky, ect... Those don't seem like things Reality can do. However there was 100,000 people there who believed a Miracle would occur. What happened? A Miracle. You could claim this is a case of Mass hysteria. However Mass Hysteria or not, these thoughts had come together and changed reality for what is was. So yes, if you believed strong enough and with enough people, I do believe you could create a car that you could pick up with your fingers.
P.S (I want to just say, I am not against Religion in anyway. In fact I personally believe in a God, and using the theory here, I can sorta explain how a God could have created us.)
You stated that our abilty to fantasize gave us purpose, that this purpose set us apart from the animals. I countered by saying that animals do have purpose even though they lack this ability to fantasize...lol
So then you say, "what made the animal instincts?" Well it is not the ability to fantasize, as we have just agreed that this jis is the very thing that sets us apart? Are you now saying that animals reason(fantasy) too.
I do not have to account for the motivation behind nature. The argument states that fantasy is just as important as reality, because without it reality would be barren of purpose, but the reality that we witness every day, is that animals and other forns of nature demonstrate the motive to survive without the ability to fantasize. So it is not the case that the lack of fantasy turns all life into action-less objects. This is where we are now. Lol
As far as the Decartes quote, I will say that all statements or claims have presuppositions. You cannot have an 'I' without self awareness, be it mental or physical, and you cannot have an awareness of self without an awareness of 'other' i.e., what you are not. So what the consciousness that arises from our awareness of self is not even the simultaneous awareness of reality, we build the 'I' through learning what we cannot control. This is the development of the personality. The fantasy (reason) arises out if our need to rationalize these two contraries (what i am/want vs. what reality permits). I learn that I must act or engage this realty through experience. Actions produce reactions desired and undesired. I adapt/change to survive. Thats all...
I understand and actually believe that there is there is more to discover about the capabilities of the mind (our non-physical self) but you cannot rationally make the leap beyond what you know to be true. The examples you give may be true, but can you really take possible exceptions to the rule and apply them to life as a whole, when it is evident that we are still subject to the laws of reality. Also, these individuals even with their increased influence, are still engaging reality, they are not (or haven't as of yet), wholly dismissed reality,as you propose...lol
Ok to summarize my debate:
Reality is no more important than Fantasy. I state this due to the following reasons.
Firstly, Fantasy gives us purpose. Con stated that without Fantasy we would still have the purpose of surviving. However I argue that is neither a purpose, nor is it logical to propose that we just want to survive without explaining WHY we want to survive. Con stated, "This is the development of the personality. The fantasy (reason) arises out if our need to rationalize these two contraries (what i am/want vs. what reality permits). I learn that I must act or engage this realty through experience. Actions produce reactions desired and undesired. I adapt/change to survive. Thats all..." However he does not explain WHY we want to survive. The bottom desire of Survival that allows us to adapt and change is also born from Fantasy. Reality could care less whether it survived or not, Reality has no purpose without Fantasy. We adapt and change not because of Reality, but because of ourselves.
Secondly, Decartes Quote, "I think, therefore I am." Con claims that we must be aware of the "other" before we are aware of ourselves. However awareness can only be possible if we recognize "I" first. How could I become aware of anything If I was not aware of my self. When a Baby is born, is it aware of its surroundings? It can feel and see them but cannot understand it. However what it is aware of, and what it truly understands is itself. I agrue you can have awareness of Self without being aware of "other" because when it comes down to it, the only thing we ever can understand is ourselves. We are all only aware of who we are, but for the "other" we know nothing but what WE percieve of it. Again when becoming "aware" of the "other" we can only know there is an "other" because we are aware of ourselves.
Thirdly, I would like to address that I do think that animals can also think and be aware of themselves. I believe Fantasy also applies to them, so I take back when I stated humans would be like animals if we lost our ability to Fantasize. Animals do Fantasize, they dream, they desire, they get curious, they learn, they feel, Animals are alive because they can Fantasize. However I remain saying that we would be no different from a lifeless robot. Or something along those lines. It may very well be possible we would not exist at all if we could not percieve.
This brings us to my Fourth Reason. Even Quantum Scientist agree with this. In fact, as I have stated before, the very man who developed Quatum Mechanics stated, "I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything we regard as existing, postulates consciousness." - Mac Planck. (He also helped in the theoratical particle, Planck particles.) Let us break down this quote. He states he regards consciousness as Fundamental. Fundamental means: forming a necessary base or core; of central importance. It can also mean a central or primary rule or principle on which something is based. So Consciousness is what is necessary to be the First of which everything else is built upon. He then states Matter is Derivative from consciousness. Derivative means: something that is based on another source. So Matter came from Consciouness. Or better worded: Reality is a construct of Fantasy.
Fifthly, Everything that is just down right impossible! From Statues crying tears for 6 years, from Doves appearing out of the air and curing sickness, to the Sun moving in zig zags across the sky. Or even just any Supernatural phonemon. So many people have seen these and claimed it, it would be mad to say they were false. However everything that would be impossible but became possible can be easily explained by our Consciousness. We not only imagined these things, but the strong belief and number of people believing made this possible. You may say my explanation is impossible and pure assertion, HOWEVER look back to what Max Planck had said. Matter is Derivative of Conscious. If that was true in the past, why can't it still be true?
Overall, I say that our goals and dreams that we create for ourselves are just as important as the world we are living in. The Fantasies we have are just as Reality we percieve. I almost would go as far to say Fantasy is more important than Reality for one simple reason. You cannot have Reality without Fantasy, but you can have Fantasy without Reality. This seems like it should be just the opposite, however we know Conscious is the true base of Reality. Reality is the offspring of Fantasy. If we just had Reality then they would be no point and no one to percieve it nor to think about it. So Reality would in essence not exist.
As stated by psychologist Morty Lefkoe "But what allows any thing—a hand, a chair, or any other object—to exist? One way to discover the answer is to imagine a specific thing—say, your hand—expanding and expanding until there is nothing in the universe except the hand. What would happen to it? … Really, just take a moment and try this. You’ll be amazed at your experience … You wouldn’t see the hand anymore, would you? Why? … It would disappear because there would be nothing in the universe that was not the hand. This is a very basic concept about reality: In order for anything to exist, there must also be not that thing." He then states,
"Consider this for a moment. Can you see that any physical object is bounded by “not that object”? If an object did not have any borders—that is, if it wasn’t surrounded by “not that object”—it couldn’t be distinguished from everything else. In other words, it wouldn’t exist."
Below is the summary of how I have demonstrated that Pro has not satisfied the Bop for his claim that " Reality is no more important than fantasy."
Pro's warrants his dismissal of reality by demonstrating that in order to answer any question about the nature of reality, fantasy must be applied because reality cannot supply such answers.
What Pro does not acknowledge is that the questions themselves presuppose that there is something there to be apprehended, or else the questions would never have arisen.
So Pro continues to belabor under this misconception, which leads him to conclude that without fantasy (that which enables us to ponder these meanings) there would be no point to reality.
This leads to the haphazard conclusion that without fantasy, we would be robotic organisms, i.e., animals who follow basic instincts while also specifying that they do not have the ability to reason (a capability that sets humans apart). He delves even further into this misguided conception and claims, worse still, that this lack of fantasy would make us no different from rocks.
My response was that this is not true because despite lacking this fantasy animals still demonstrate motive or goals...and that nothing about nature is robotic. That they display an array of diverse motives via purposeful actions, so if animals are not rock-like (action-less) without fantasy, it is inconsistent to conclude that we would be (without some other proof, of course...lol).
The second example he gives misconstrues the concept/function of goals, saying that fantasy alone is what establishes goals.
Although goals must be conceived by the mind, a goal is something that we want realized, i.e., a result, change or occurrence. So goals cannot be separated from reality, because their apprehension necessitates the acknowledgment of a future outcome (consequence), and engagement (actions) with reality in order to be realized.
Dismissing a response to my queries/concerns, Pro simply asks, the 'original why' questions, e.g., "what makes this desire to survive? What makes us have this instinct? Where does it come from? So why does instinct want to survive? Why would Evolution form to survive? what makes the motive, or instincts?". A fallacious attempt to further his warrant by assuming that if we don't know the answers, we must accept the proposed one, instead of offering proof.
He reaches even further, positing that fantasy could even exist independent of reality (pure consciousness). Which is falsely concluding that because it can be employed to find meaning within reality, it must be the meaning/origin behind reality.
Moreover, the origin of the motives behind nature is tangential to this debate. We have within our grasp, both the functional concepts of reality and fantasy. Reality is what exists, and fantasy, per our agreed defintion, is our non-physical perception of it. So, determining which is more important does not require the origin of nature or reality.
Pro also uses quotes (sources) without realizing the tacit acknowledgements inherent in them:
Descartes' " I think therefore I am"
Consciousness creates reality". "It was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics ... without reference to conscious
Consciousness, as I have said since the onset, is the awareness of self i.e., the 'I'. We cannot apprehend the self, without apprehending what the self is not, or other, or external world i.e., reality. The quotes on consciousness or the awareness of such, presupposes an awareness of reality (the other). I don't know why this reasoning seems so foriegn to Pro, especially as he has posted the quotes that assert precisely that in his closing argument..lol.
"Consider this for a moment. Can you see that any physical object is bounded by "not that object"? If an object did not have any borders"that is, if it wasn"t surrounded by "not that object""it couldn"t be distinguished from everything else. In other words, it wouldn"t exist."
So if we must have this contrasting /negating process to define our world (internal and external), how can we have ever come to ascertain the self without recognition of other? This is why fantasy cannot supersede reality.
Pro however, has not answered this...
Also I find reality versus fantasy to be a false dichotomy, because he defines it as the perception of reality, and that perception has real world consequences, so it is not the opposite but a complement. There is no way outside of consciousness because there is no way outside/opposite of reality (which would be nonexistence), because it would have to present itself in order to stand in contrast, but then it too, by definition, would exist. Lol
It was fun while to lasted...
Thanks for reviewing...