The Instigator
pawletoe
Con (against)
Losing
14 Points
The Contender
burningpuppies101
Pro (for)
Winning
50 Points

Redebate: Puppies should be tortured.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 10 votes the winner is...
burningpuppies101
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/2/2008 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,349 times Debate No: 5612
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (4)
Votes (10)

 

pawletoe

Con

I want to open a debate I felt should be debated about again. Puppies should not be tortured for no reason.

P.S. Hi burningpuppies101! =P
burningpuppies101

Pro

Thanks to my opponent for posting this debate. Before I begin, I feel compelled to say this, due to the nature of the debate.

Please do not vote for anyone just because you like their stance. Please actally vote for who you believed presented the better arguments. Otherwise, there would be very little point to the debate. Thank you

Now to the debate.

Topic Analysis:
Judging from my opponents one and only sentence pertaining to the topic, I think we can safely assume that the topic he hopes to debate is; Puppies should not be tortured for no reason. That is basically his argument. The way I see it, if I can provide one reason, however unplausible, that would show that puppies should be tortured, then I win the debate.

Here is that one scenario. Please remember, that no where in my opponents post does he say that this debate has any roots in realism. So here I go.

There is a country of dogs. These dogs are civilized dogs. We can consider them to be very civilized dogs, by human standards. There are laws in place that forbid the killing of a dog, no matter what. There are moral standards of this society that also say that killing is wrong by all moral standards. These laws and moral standards state that if you kill someone, commit a grave sin, the punishment shall be torture.

Enter little Billy. He is a puppy. His mental maturity is that of a 15 year old human (young enough to be a child but old enough to know that killing is wrong). He plots to kill his best friend, Bobby. His choice of murder is to take Bobby out to dinner, and to poison Bobby's water. The plot works, and in Doggy Court, Billy is convicted of dog murder, the most grievous crime in the country. The punishment is torture. Billy knows this, and knew that if he killed someone, he would be tortured.

From the story above, I think it is safe to say that Billy should be tortured. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 1
pawletoe

Con

1. I agree with the topic analysis.

2. The debate should have realism in it. Since we are debating about our actions and what is right in our society, I expect that we debate this correctly. This debate, like any other, should impact the way we feel towards what we think it right. I didn't post this in the first round because it seems self-evident that we shouldn't be talking in fairytale.

3. The punishment of committing murder is not torture.

4. As for the story, my response #2 shows I expect to have a debate about real situations.
burningpuppies101

Pro

Ok, fine so you don't like my story.... *hangs head* Nevermind.

However, I do believe that even if this debate needs some realism, we should still be talking about hypotheticals. We aren't debating about our actions. We are debating about a dogs. An animal with whom we have no way to communicate other than, Good Boy! Bad Boy! Sit!....

Also, impacting the what you feel towards what you think is right is not a requirement of debate. Debate is basically 2 people arguing about something. Who wins is determined not by, Hmmm, I think that this action is right, so I am siding with Con. No. It is determined by the better arguments.

And no, it's not self evident that we shouldn't be talking in fairytale. You merely stated a claim. You had no warrant. I may not have answered your argument(one sentence) in the expected way, but I still answered it. Notice, however, that you have not taken a since chance to attack my argument... So I guess I can extend it to my speech.

Again, this debate requires us to think in hypotheticals. We can admit it. In reality, this situation we are debating about would never happen. However, that doesn't mean that I lose on default. All it means is that we have to debate using hypotheticals if we want to debate this out of the box topic. So really, we have to consider that hypothetical chance of torture being punishment for murder. Also, some would say that life in prison, death row, or the death penalty is torture... Your claim, you have to prove it... I just disproved that little you proved with your 3rd claim...

4. As to you response, look above.

Seeing as my opponent doesn't really want me to be arguing about a story, I'll give a chain of logic that basically shows a more "real" argument.

Puppies are rational beings.
Being rational beings, puppies are bound by morality.
It is immoral to kill.
A puppy understands that it is immoral to kill or do some other atrocity..
A puppy understands that because it is immoral to kill or some other atrocity, it is wrong and he should not do it.
A puppy has the ability to understand that if it kills or some other atrocity, it will be punished.
If a puppy kills or does some atrocity with all the above understandings, it should be punished.
If the correct punishment is torture, then the puppy should be tortured.

I hope that works. Also, my story still stands.
Debate Round No. 2
pawletoe

Con

I think that was a wonderful story! =P

1. Yes, I can accept some hypothetical examples, since they are just examples. Agreed.

2. If a person doesn't feel a debate has change his or her views, then that is fine. But the whole point of the debate is 1: we argue to see who's ideas are right, and 2: to see who brings a better argument. You agree on 2. but not 1.

3. If a debate is political, we should have our full attention to reality. If a debate is about "Batman vs. Spider man" then we can easily not worry about scientific laws and theories. Here, we have an issue that is neither too realist nor fantasy. We still have much to learn about dogs and how they behave. But overall, much is understood about dogs and we can assume realism should be enforced in this debate(with some hypothetical examples).
a. http://www.Debate.org...
b. http://www.Debate.org...

4. Torture is the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty. Torture can be death penalty, life in prison, etc. In today's culture, we use torture vaguely and loosely. Torture can be staying at your mother-in-law over the holiday for some people. But in most cases, people define torture differently today. In our society, we think of torture as physical pain being inflicted.
a.http://dictionary.reference.com...

5. Puppies are not rational beings. Dogs do not think like humans. Their intelligence is not the same as ours. Human intelligence is the most controversial in psychology. Yet with dogs, there are only 3 basic intelligences of a dog.
a.http://petrix.com...
b.http://www.psych.utoronto.ca...

6. A dog does not understand if it is permissible to kill. Dogs do not think of the past or future. They think of the present.

7. A dog only understand what not do a certain action if it is taught by it's owner. A dog is a species that must live with humans. Just like a hippo depending on birds to eat away bacteria off of the hippo. If the dog is wild, it is de-generating(or becoming a wolf).
a.http://www.lookd.com...

8. The "above understandings" are not correct.

9. In a lot of cases, the fault of a crime of a dog should actually be blamed on the human not the dog. A dog lives a life of being in a pack. In that pack, they are all equal except for the pack leader. The pack leader and mother teach the dog how to behave in that current state of tense(present). If a dog commits an "atrocity" it is because of self-dense or because it is taught to behave that way.
a. Example: If an owner has a pregnant dog that was not tied up and that dog bit a child, it is the owners fault for not having the dog detained. The dog bit the child because of fear of her unborn puppy's health which turned into anger.

10. Remember, we are talking about puppies... A puppy is not fully grown and has not fully been raised up. A puppy, as well as children, make mistakes. These mistakes must be corrected yet not punished with torture.

Conclusion:
I have rebutted my opponent's responses and in some cases (#1) agreed with him. I believe the contender does not fully understand the psychology of a dog. He compares it very similar to psychology of a human. Therefore, my opponent has provided false information about dogs/puppies. I await my opponent's response. Thank you.
burningpuppies101

Pro

Thank you for the debate.

1. Thank you

2. Here is what debate is, according to Merriam Webster:
: a contention by words or arguments: as a: the formal discussion of a motion before a deliberative body according to the rules of parliamentary procedure b: a regulated discussion of a proposition between two matched sides.

No where in that does it say that you have to change you view. No where does it say to see who's right. Its a discussion. Who wins the debate is not about who is right or wrong, since sometimes that cannot be contested, like in saying the Sky is Blue. It is about who gave the better arguments.

3. Again, this debate, as real as it may seem, requires us to think hypothetically because the situation presented by the topic is so different that in order to debate this, there needs to be some hypotheticalism(not sure thats a word, but you know what I mean)

4.You are contradicting yourself here. You say that in today's culture we use the term vaguely and loosley.Then you go on to say that people define torture differently. And I don't see what you are trying to prove...

5. Here is what rational means:
: having reason or understanding b: relating to, based on, or agreeable to reason
Even with those 3 intelligences, dogs are still capable of knowing what is right or wrong. Saying otherwise would be like saying that dogs are machines that only act without thinking about their actions.

6. Yes, a dog can indeed. If a dog is able to know right from wrong, then it should know if it is right to kill or not.

7. This claim is not true. Nor does it have any warrant, so we cannot assume it to be true. Also, dogs are not a species that have to live with humans.

8.Look above. and below.

9.So you suggest that the dogs teachings override his own sense of morality?
a. Example: My story. It isn't as unrealistic as it sounds. Just imagine a pack of dogs. There is your society.

10. Dogs mature at faster rates than us.http://www.dog-names.org.uk...
That site shows that at the age of 1 year old, a puppy is already mature.

http://atheism.about.com...

If you take a look at this article, it argues that dogs have evolved a sense of morality. The source of this morality is because of dogs living in a society. For the society to continue to exist ,morality is a neccesary thing. Without morality, the society would fall apart.

Conclusion:

My opponent still hasn't refuted my chain of logic. The only parts he attacked were the parts about puppies being rational beings.Seeing as I have proved that dogs are rational beings, and they have a sense of morality, my logic still stands. Because the only burden I had in this debate is that I had to give one example where puppies should be tortured. My opponent never refuted that claim, so it can be extended to here. So my chain of logic can be used as an example. Because I have fulfilled my part of the debate, I win.

And the story still stands, again.
Debate Round No. 3
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by burningpuppies101 8 years ago
burningpuppies101
look at my debate with crazypenguin
Posted by pawletoe 8 years ago
pawletoe
wait! why are you losing the original debate, now? the reason I made this one was to win...

Also, why did you call yourself burningpuppies101? I mean obviously you dont torture puppies and you have a picture of a cutie on your profile... =P
Posted by pawletoe 8 years ago
pawletoe
i think the other guy made a bad debate and i dont think he got his point across well enough
Posted by burningpuppies101 8 years ago
burningpuppies101
is there a reason that you wanted to challenge me on this?
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Vote Placed by King_Jas 8 years ago
King_Jas
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Vote Placed by crazypenguin 8 years ago
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Vote Placed by burningpuppies101 8 years ago
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