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Religion and Sin

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/6/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,182 times Debate No: 27920
Debate Rounds (3)
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If God is all knowing didn't he already know that Adam and Eve would sin so why did he create the forbidden tree anyways.


I will accept my opponents challenge.

God is an all-knowing God who knows when things may happen before we even know. The reason why he put the tree in the garden is to show a sign of freewill to Adam and Eve. They had chose to eat the fruit and God had given them the freewill to choose whether to serve him or not.

"The story of Adam and Eve and their downfall is quite well known by the average Christian. You remember that God placed our perfect parents in that lovely ideal setting of the Garden of Eden. They were surrounded by beauties indescribable. God said to them, "Now, look it over. This is to be your home. All the pleasures of the garden will be yours for eternity if you will just obey me." But in the very midst of the garden, God placed one tree which was set apart. God pointed this out to Adam and Eve and said, "Don't bother that tree, it is set aside, you must leave it alone." There was no question in the minds of Adam and Eve concerning the commandment of God. But, friends, the fact is that Adam and Eve disobeyed God and actually did eat of the tree which was forbidden. Many people say, "Well, I can't understand why God did such a thing anyway. Why did He place it right out in the open in the very midst of the garden,, why didn't God put an electric fence around the tree, or something by which to discourage Adam and Eve from taking of that tree?" Others have been known to say, "Well, I can't understand why God would forbid the tree anyway. He certainly didn't need to reserve anything for Himself. He didn't need the fruit of the tree."

Friends, let's see if we can find the answers to these questions today. God will only accept the service of love. Religion is not a fire escape. We must choose to obey God because of our love for Him, or else we will be serving in vain. God must have some way of knowing why we serve Him. Our very judgement will take place on this basis. God is going to look into the motives of the mind and heart and we shall be saved or lost according to our motive in serving God. So Adam and Eve had to be tested. God wanted to make them immortal. He wanted to give them that beautiful home for all time to come. But before doing so, He had to know that their love was true and deep. The test of their love was the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. God said, "If you love me, don't touch this tree. If you ever lose your love and confidence in me, then just eat of this tree and I will understand."

Please notice, friends, that the test came over something that had been set aside by God. God said leave it alone. He didn't elaborate, He didn't say why; there was no apparent reason as far as Adam and Eve were concerned. God seemed to be saying, "Just trust me and obey without asking the reasons why."

Let's bring this lesson closer home to us today. We perhaps are saying, "Well, I would not have eaten of the tree. I would not have disobeyed God." But I wonder, friend about that. I submit that we have exactly the same test facing us in this modern age. How are we passing the test? God says to us, "Everything which comes into your hands may be used as your own, except one-tenth. Your tithe is sacred and must be set aside for me." Now notice friends, it's not one tree this time, but one-tenth. God says, "That one-tenth is mine. You must not touch it. You must not use it." Now if I disregard this commandment I am repeating the sin of Adam, and I will be doubly guilty because I have his example before me as well as the direct commandment of God concerning my own case. There is no reason at all to leave that money alone, except that God said it is holy; it is His. This is the very same circumstance that we find with the forbidden tree in the garden of Eden.

Then again God may say to me, "Look at the days of the week. You can have all of them except one." You know, of course, that the Bible says the seventh is hallowed, it is set aside for a holy purpose. So God says "Keep your feet off the Sabbath. Don't use it for yourself at all. It is set aside for me." Now that same test was given to Adam and Eve. There's not a particle of difference in the commands that God gave them concerning the tree and the command He gives us concerning the Sabbath. Today we might look for some human reason as to why that one day should be reserved for God. I've heard people questioning about this very thing. Since the seventh day seems to appear just like the other days of the week, they will not recognize it's sanctity. One day seems to be as good as another day for rest and worship. Adam and Eve might have said the very same thing. Their line of reasoning could have been similar. That one tree in the midst of the garden certainly did not look any different from the other trees, and it's fruit was probably just as good to the taste. The difference lay in the commandment of God to leave it alone. And today, the difference is, God says, "Remember the Sabbath day, the seventh day, to keep it holy." Both tests concern something which was set aside by God, and which man was told to leave alone.

Friends, how do we measure up in this thing? Finally, you remember, Adam and Eve had to face God over eating that fruit. Every soul will face God over the two tests that have been mentioned today, exactly as Adam and Eve had to face Him. This is a serious matter. If we ever enter Heaven it will be because we love Him so dearly that we will not touch what He commands us to leave alone. You mark this down carefully friends, God is very particular about things which He has set aside. The story of Adam and Eve proves it without the shadow of a doubt."(Amazing Facts).
Debate Round No. 1


So because of free will Adam and even chose to eat the fruit on their own. but my point is God already would've known that they were going to eat the fruit before placing the tree in the Garden before even creating Adam and Eve. So now this notion that we're born into sin it's almost as if God created it.


The devil had made sin."The devil sinneth from the beginning." 1 John 3:8. "That old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan." Revelation 12:9...he was disobedient to God and went against him.The devil was the first to create sin.God gives us free will to chose to be with God because God is not a dictator.So sin is the disbanded of God.For God showed love that no one would think to go against God because of the love he showed to the worlds but Lucifer aka Satan had wanted to be like God."Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness." Ezekiel 28:17. "For thou hast said in thine heart, ... I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: ... I will be like the most High." Isaiah 14:13, 14.He was jealous of God and Lucifer was a highly exalted angel"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" Isaiah 14:12. Jesus said, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." Luke 10:18. "Thou wast upon the holy mountain of God." Ezekiel 28:14"Thou wast created." Ezekiel 28:13, 15. "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth." Ezekiel 28:14. "Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty ... every precious stone was thy covering ... the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. ... Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." Ezekiel 28:12-15..But his pride got to him and he decided to go against god.So there was a war in heaven and Lucifer take a third of the angels with him down to earth."And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Revelation 12:7-9.

"9. Was eating a piece of fruit such a bad thing? Why were Adam and Eve removed from the garden?

"To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." James 4:17. "Sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4. "He that committeth sin is of the devil." 1 John 3:8. "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever." "So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Genesis 3:22, 24.

Answer: Yes, eating of the fruit was a sin because it was a direct rejection of one of God's few requirements. It was open rebellion against God's law and authority. By rejecting one of God's commands, Adam and Eve allied themselves with Satan, God's enemy, and thus brought separation between themselves and God (Isaiah 59:2). Satan hoped the couple would sin and then eat of the tree of life, and thus become immortal sinners. But God removed them from the garden to prevent such a tragedy.
4. But since God created Lucifer, isn't He really responsible for his sin?
Not at all. God created Lucifer a perfect, sinless angel. Lucifer made a devil of himself. Freedom to choose is a cornerstone principle of God's government. God knew Lucifer would sin when He created him. If at that point God had refused to create him, He would have been repudiating that prime principle of free choice.

"Freedom to Choose" is God's Way
So, knowing full well what Lucifer would do, God still created him. The same facts apply to the creation of Adam and Eve. And, closer to home, these facts apply to you and me. God knows before we are born how we will live, but even so, He permits us to live and choose whether to endorse His government or Satan's. God is willing to be misunderstood and falsely accused and blamed for ages, while taking the time to allow every person to freely choose whom he will follow.

Only a Loving God Would Risk Granting Full Freedom for All
This glorious, crucial gift of freedom could come only from a just, open, loving God. It is an honor and joy to serve such a Lord and friend.

Choose to Serve God
The sin problem will soon end. In the beginning, everything was "very good." Genesis 1:31. Now "the whole world lieth in wickedness." 1 John 5:19. People everywhere are choosing to serve God or Satan. Use your fantastic, God-given freedom to choose to serve the Lord

5. Why didn't God destroy the devil when he sinned, and thus end the sin problem?
Because sin was something completely new in God's universe, and its inhabitants did not understand it. Probably even Lucifer himself did not fully comprehend it at first. Lucifer was a brilliant, highly respected angelic leader. His approach was doubtless one of great concern for heaven and the angels. It possibly ran something like this: "Heaven is good, but it would be improved with more angel input. Too much unchallenged authority (as the Father and Son have) tends to blind leaders to real life. Angels should not be required to take orders. We should give orders. God knows my suggestions are correct, and He is feeling threatened. We must not permit our noble leaders who are out of touch to jeopardize the very existence of heaven. They will listen if we move in unison. We must not be weak we must act. Otherwise, we will all be ruined by a government that doesn't appreciate us."

One-Third of the Angels Joined Lucifer
Lucifer's arguments convinced many angels, and one-third joined him. If God had destroyed Lucifer immediately, some angelic beings who did not fully understand God's character may have begun to worship God through fear, saying, "Lucifer may have been correct. Be careful. If you differ with God, He may kill you." So nothing would have been settled. Instead, the problem would have been heightened.

God Accepts Only Loving, Voluntary Service
The only service acceptable to God is cheerful, voluntary service prompted by love. Obedience for any other reason is unacceptable.

God Is Giving Satan Time to Demonstrate His Principles
Satan claimed he had a better plan for the government of the universe. God is giving him time to demonstrate its principles. The Lord will abolish sin only after every soul in the universe is convinced that Satan's government is unfair, hateful, ruthless, lying, and destructive.

The Universe Is Watching This World
The Bible says, "We are made a spectacle [margin says "theatre"] unto the world, and to angels, and to men." 1 Corinthians 4:9. The entire universe is watching as we each play a part in the controversy between Christ and Satan. As the controversy ends, every soul will fully understand the principles of both kingdoms and will have chosen to follow either Christ or Satan. Those who have chosen to ally with sin and Satan will be destroyed with him, and God's people will be taken to the eternal safety of their heavenly home"(Amazing Facts).
Debate Round No. 2


But if sin is the disbanded of God why are we born into sin? That makes no sense what so ever. As unborn children we don't do anything physically, cognitively, emotionally in the womb to disobey God. It's not possible. So if we are born into sin without even doing anything wrong, then we're pretty much doomed from the beginning. The notion of us being born into sin means that there is no one on earth who is not a sinner and if sin is disobedience to God then we'er all just disobeying.


God knew that when he created beings of the universe he would have to decide to choose whether to dictate the universe or be able to show the greatest gift of all,LOVE.For he gave us freewill not to hurt us but to be able to love him.But he knew the consequences an planned out the strategy of the cross.

Caller: And my interpretation was that if everything was planned out to the tenth degree then, if I'm born into sin, then I'm going to hell.

Pastor Doug: Yeah if that was true, you would be right but see I believe that there's a big difference between God planning everything and God knowing everything. God's plan for everybody is to be saved. Now let me give you some Scripture: God who will have all men to be saved - that's 1 Timothy 2:4. And then God says in 2 Peter chapter 3 He's not willing that any should perish. So that's God's perfect Will but we know many will perish because they don't choose.

And there's that verse that says many are called but few are chosen - and what that means is that many are called but few choose to respond, in the original translation - and so we all have freedom of choice. That's why Jesus invites everybody in The Great Invitation: whosoever will, let him come. Come unto me all who are weary and heavy laden. And not all will choose. Judas chose to turn his back on Christ. Jesus knew what Judas would do, but He didn't make him do it - do you see what I'm saying?(Amazing Facts).

In my argument I am agreeing on we are sinners.When saying being born into sin its not saying when we are babies we sin and that's it.The verse is saying that we are born into a sinful world.The thing is that we are saved by God's grace.Though we are born into sin we are not doomed.Instead we are saved by the grace of God.

The cancer of sin has infected the entire human race, "for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23. However, the gospel of Jesus is the good news of salvation from sin. The sinner may come to the Lord in full assurance that the grace of God is sufficient to forgive him of all sin. "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God." Verses 24,25.

The plan of redemption provides for more than the forgiveness of past sins. It also provides a way of escape from continued sin. We need to experience not only forgiveness of sin, but also victory over sin. We cannot be saved in our sins, we must be saved from our sins.

There are certain clearly defined steps which lead one into sin. "Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." James 1:14,15. The steps as indicated are lust and enticement which lead to sin and death.(Amazing Facts).

God's plan is to give us a chance to see his love.For God's love is much more than anything we can know.So he shows through us his love.

Here is the secret of inner strength that fortifies man with divine power. The mind that is strengthened with truth and the promises of Scripture is a mighty bulwark the devil, with all of his supernatural power, cannot penetrate. Close communion with God, through prayer and the study of the Word, gave to Jesus a living faith that brought victory over temptation. Yes, there is power in the Word. How important, indeed, that we, like Jesus, live a life of prayer and study, for here is "the way of escape" from sin, This is the divine plan to "deliver the godly out of temptation." The divine nature unites with the human to resist and overcome temptation. "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises (in the Scriptures): that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." 2 Peter 1:4.(Amazing Facts).

Now Jesus' words take on real meaning. "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and we are all born of the flesh." We are all sinful by birth. We inherit Adam's sinful nature and indeed a sinful flesh. A sinful nature cannot inherit heaven. This is where the new birth comes in. We must be born again and come into possession of a new nature, a spiritual nature. Paul describes the difference between these natures in Romans 8:1, 5-10. "There is now therefore no condemnation to them which are in Christ who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh, they that are after the spirit the things of the spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."

Paul continues on to say, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

There it is, friend, becoming a Christian involves a new birth. It is dying to your old fleshly sinful nature and letting Christ dwell in you by His Holy Spirit to give you a spiritual nature. Paul described it in Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless, I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me, And the life I now live, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."(Amazing Facts).

1. How could one Man's death pay the penalty for the sins of all mankind? I have lived a terrible life of sin. I am afraid God would have to do something very special to atone for someone so evil.
Romans 3:23 tells us that "all have sinned." Because "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23) and since "all have sinned," therefore "something special" is required for every person who has been born. Only One whose life is equal to all mankind could die for the sins of the race. Because Jesus is the Creator and Author of all life, the life He laid down was equivalent to the lives of all people who would ever live. Not only did atonement have to be made by One whose life could stand for all other created beings, but the One who died the atoning death had to be able to rise from that death. Why? In order to administer the benefits of the atonement to all who would apply for it in faith. "Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." Hebrews 7:25.(amazing facts).

4. Is there anything I can do to help God save me?
No. His plan is wholly of grace (Romans 3:24; 4:5); it is "the gift of God." Ephesians 2:8. It is true that as God grants us grace through faith, He also gives us the desire and strength to obey Him. This results in compliance with His laws. So, even this obedience results from God's free grace. Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true test of discipleship and a natural fruit of faith in Jesus Christ.

So in conclusion, we do have a chance to be saved and have eternal life. We are God's very elect people created in "his own image" to represent the true meaning of his grace and love.We are not born into sin because God's mean.We are given grace and his judgement is righteous.
"The Ancient of days did sit, ... his throne was like the fiery flame." "The judgment was set, and the books were opened." Daniel 7:9, 10. "We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. "The Father ... hath committed all judgment unto the Son." John 5:22. "The Devil, ... the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."
Debate Round No. 3
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Posted by philochristos 5 years ago
It's not clear what point of view you want to debate or what your position is.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by baggins 5 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Con did not have any resolution or an argument. All he had was a question, which Pro made efforts to answer...
Vote Placed by wiploc 5 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro neglected to state a resolution. They had a nice discussion, but there was no topic of debate, nothing to be proven or refuted. Pro had the burden of proof, but there was nothing to prove. Persuasion to Con. Wait, Firstguy is Con, so persuasion goes to Secondguy, since firstguy didn't have a resolution and therefore couldn't meet the burden of proof.