The Instigator
A341
Pro (for)
Winning
12 Points
The Contender
Jozza1172
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Religion has had a negative impact on the world

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
A341
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/17/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 958 times Debate No: 46106
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
Votes (2)

 

A341

Pro

First round is acceptance. Any definitions can be worked out in the comments section.
Jozza1172

Con

Well, Round 1. first off. I am not a religious narrow-minded stereotypical old guy, Yes i am catholic at birth but lets get to business, I do not believe Religion has a bad effect on the world, why? it has done nothing wrong. The reason there are wars over religion is the fact people are idiots, nothing in the bible was meant to be taken literally, It was the meaning behind it, anyone who fights for religion should not be part of that religion at all, religion is about peace and spirituality and belief in a greater being, Religion cannot have a negative impact on the world unless you see peace, harmony and good morals as negative, Case closed :P.
Debate Round No. 1
A341

Pro

"The reason there are wars over religion is the fact people are idiots, nothing in the bible was meant to be taken literally"

This wasn't the point of this debate, while we can argue over whether or not the bible was meant to be taken literally or not (personally I see it difficult to take this "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." in any other way than as a commandment).

The point of the debate was over whether or not religion in general has had a negative impact on the world and mental acrobatics such as "religion is about peace and spirituality and belief in a greater being, Religion cannot have a negative impact on the world unless you see peace, harmony and good morals as negative" religion is simply defined as "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.", there is nothing about peace an harmony in the definition of religion.

"anyone who fights for religion should not be part of that religion at all, religion is about peace and spirituality and belief in a greater being"

This is one of the most blatant no true scotsman arguments I have ever heard. I can't really say much more than that.

Lets look at what religion has done in the past few hundred years:

Events:

Radical islamic violence/terrorism (including 9/11) [1] [2],
Molestation of children in catholic schools [3]
Genocide in Bosnia [4],
Aggravation of AIDS epidemic in africa [5],
IRA and war in Ireland [6],
White suprematist terrorism in USA [7],
Radical Israeli zionism [8],
Partition of India [9],
Holocaust and suppresion of Jews in Natzi Germany [10],
http://news.bbc.co.uk... [11}
Russian pogroms [12],
Justifying slavery in USA [13],
Justifying genocide against native peoples in the British colonies [14].

Doctrines and practices:

Indoctrination [15],
Infant genital mutilation [16] [17],
Female genital mutilation [18] [19],
Physiological torture [20],
Labeling of children [21],
Suppression of homosexuality [22] [23],
Shariah law [24],
Implementation of religious doctrines to the general population [25].

Post note: Just continue the debate, there is no reason to skip a round, I'm sure everyone will overlook it.

[1] http://jeffreyfields.net...
[2] http://wikileaks.org... (part 3)
[3] http://www.bbc.co.uk...
[4] http://www.crimesofwar.org...
[5] http://news.bbc.co.uk...
[6] http://www.fas.org...
[7] http://home.wlu.edu... "The KKK uses words from the Holy Bible and teachings from Protestant Reverends to support its cause and justify its actions."
[8] http://www.onepalestine.org...
[9] http://www.bbc.co.uk...
[10] Mein Kampf page 60 "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord"
[11] http://news.bbc.co.uk...
[12] http://www.ushmm.org...
[13] http://religion.blogs.cnn.com...
[14] http://www.theguardian.com...
[15] http://psychsocvalues.files.wordpress.com...
[16] http://www.cdc.gov...
[17] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[18] http://www.nhs.uk...
[19] http://www.meforum.org...
[20] http://goddoesnt.blogspot.co.uk...
[21] http://old.richarddawkins.net...
[22] http://www.isreview.org...
[23] http://www.anu.edu.au...
[24] http://www.howieunveilsgodsshield.com... (this one has annoying adds)
[25] http://drawmuhammad.tumblr.com... "You say that Islam doesn"t condone violence, but there are many Muslims who would disagree with you. People get killed over depictions of Muhammad. I"ve never heard of anyone getting killed over a picture of Jesus or a picture of an atheist. THAT is why we do this. It may be a dick move but your religion needs to understand that no amount of offense warrants murder. We have every right to draw silly pictures of a figure from history, and you have every right to get angry and complain. But until Muslims stop killing over stupid things like this, we will not stop offending you."
Jozza1172

Con

I thank pro for their response and well. head start.

Again; "Let's look at what religion has done in the past few hundred years"
So your saying a code of ethics and bible that should not be taken literally is killing people? religion doesn't kill people, people kill people, and killing in the "name of god" is just pure blasphemy.
"This is not the main point of the debate" oh but all you did was quote the bible as your argument, if its not the point, why are you referencing it? if religion does for some reason have a negative impact on the world, the reasons we should look at this is how the bible should be interpreted, Which means any killing that has been done IN THE NAME of religion is complete and utter stupidity, most Religions see this as blasphemy you cannot say that religion is having an impact on the world when rather it is some of the people following that religion is using it as an excuse to kill.

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." Ahh, taking primitive human nature and using it against us, you might want to look at the sources of the bible, I am completely for gay rights and gay marriage, however you must remember the bible was inspired by god, written by men. and you are interpreting it in the bible again LITERALLY! think I am standing alone here? am I just a small portion of religions great big brutish ways? let's take a look, shall we?

"Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbor, does not yet understand them as he ought."
R13; Augustine of Hippo, On Christian Doctrine

"So that originally, and Naturally, there is no such thing as Slavery. Joseph was rightfully no more a Slave to his brethren, then they were to him: and they no more Authority to Sell him, than they had to Slay him. [Genesis 37]."
R13; Samuel Sewall, The Selling Of Joseph

"the Bible is only as good and decent as the person reading it."
R13; Dan Savage, American Savage: Insights, Slights, and Fights on Faith, Sex, Love, and Politics

Back to the main point you might rebut and say; "Ok then, what is the meaning behind the conemnation of homesexual people?" I would say to that one again; "Inspired by god, written by men" Humanity 2000 years ago were primitive and brutish yes, that reflects through the bible yes. do we follow everything in the bible? no. Bible is ok with slavery, we today know better, the only thing that i can agree with you here is that the bible is a little (understatement) outdated. our people back then were being introduced with a moral system with the bible, the only moral;s back then to follow were the bible's but the bible is written by men and men are going to make mistakes. so i do not believe everything in the bible. back to my first point.

We were but an un-evolved race 2000 years ago, you can't expect the people that wrote the bible to be above everyone else, and I'm not saying everything in the bible that is good is gods words, I'm saying this is the most reliable justice system they had in the day, but everything i just said was beside the point, the main argument is if RELIGION, not the bible, has a negative impact on the world, so from now forth lets discard the bible, it was a mistaken outdated holy scripture that only has morals to follow. Religion is a belief in a higher being, everyone has it, even if you think you don't so you are contradicting yourself, how do i know? what is your higher being, my guess is science, science relies on proof and theories, and believe the universe was created by nothing, the big bang is the first creation. creation could be random, but the very word create means something, even if that something is nothing, created, god is known as creating everything, create involves power. power + creation = a higher being, find scientific proof to prove me wrong.

Oh and thank you for bringing Islam up, I would like to just reinstate my last few paragraphs saying that we were un-evolved back then. Islam is just a stricter version of the bible, a stricter version of the justice system, you can't bring something that men wrote and claim this is god's exact words. the religion has evolved way past the bible, we need to see it, and only take snippets of the bible that are actually closer to god's real message. How do we know it you ask? because faith, if that's bot good enough for you then you are clearly misinterpreting what religion relies on, religion is a matter of faith, not hard proof and evidence, and to be clear with you, i do not believe in pearly white gates i just believe there is a soul behind this universe. not a conscious soul. a soul.

https://www.goodreads.com...

http://dictionary.reference.com...

(Religious references without using the bible is going to be hard, but lets see how it goes.)
(think i chose a big one as my first debate, don't hold back, it's great for learning)
Debate Round No. 2
A341

Pro

""This is not the main point of the debate" oh but all you did was quote the bible as your argument, if its not the point, why are you referencing it? if religion does for some reason have a negative impact on the world, the reasons we should look at this is how the bible should be interpreted, Which means any killing that has been done IN THE NAME of religion is complete and utter stupidity, most Religions see this as blasphemy you cannot say that religion is having an impact on the world when rather it is some of the people following that religion is using it as an excuse to kill."

The argument "Which means any killing that has been done IN THE NAME of religion is complete and utter stupidity" could dismiss the even part of my last argument but in no way does it have any effect on the doctrines part of the argument. Lets go over some of them again and I will explain why this isn't simply in the name of religion, it is because of religion.

Lets look at infant genital mutilation, it is expressly commanded in Leviticus 12:3 now just so we are clear Leviticus 12 is a chapter titled purification after childbirth and Leviticus 12:3 expressly commands "And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.". Now I'm not even interested in your apologetics in relation to this verse, this debate is not to do with the truth to the claims made in the bible it is simply whether or not religion has done more harm than good and the common interpretation of Leviticus 12:3 has lead to the mutilation. The circumcision doctrine is central to the Jewish faith and has lead to the mutilation of at least tens of millions of children this is directly because of a doctrine of the Jewish faith it is not simply people who want to mutilate children using holy scripture to justify the mutilation of children.

Now lets look at physiological torture, many children are constantly threatened with hell fire across the world. This is again not people who just want to abuse children this is people who threaten these children with hell because of their interpretation of the bible/quran/pearl of great price (technically I think it's outer darkness)/other holy book which mentions hell. This is not the actions of religious people this is a doctrine of multiple religions which teaches that unbelievers are destined for hell and this is people desperately trying to protect these children from the infinite torture of hell promised in verses such as quran 4:56. This is again not people justifying the physiological torture of children with their chosen religious text this is people torturing children precisely because of what their religious texts tell them.

I could do this for Indoctrination, female genital mutilation, labeling of children, suppression of homosexuality, shariah law and implementation of religious doctrines to the general population but I think you get the point, these doctrines are not simply religious people justifying these disgusting actions with their holy book this is people doing these actions because of their holy book.

"Back to the main point you might rebut and say; "Ok then, what is the meaning behind the conemnation of homesexual people?" I would say to that one again; "Inspired by god, written by men" Humanity 2000 years ago were primitive and brutish yes, that reflects through the bible yes. do we follow everything in the bible? no. Bible is ok with slavery, we today know better, the only thing that i can agree with you here is that the bible is a little (understatement) outdated. our people back then were being introduced with a moral system with the bible, the only moral;s back then to follow were the bible's but the bible is written by men and men are going to make mistakes. so i do not believe everything in the bible. back to my first point."

As I've said already the truth or otherwise of the claims made in the bible don't matter to this debate, allow me to demonstrate with an example:
Claim one: Zyklon b is dangerous to humans (demonstrably true)
Claim two: The idea that zyklon b is dangerous to humans has had a negative impact on the world (don't see who could argue with that).
You see the truth of second claim has no bearing on the truth of the first. I am an atheist but my atheism has no bearing on this debate.

Just look at what only the doctrines I have mentioned have done I could bring in more but I feel that it is unlikely that you can bring in significant good that religion has done that would counteract just the doctrine of circumcision let alone any of the others.
Jozza1172

Con

Jozza1172 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
A341

Pro

Take my last argument as my closing statement.
Jozza1172

Con

Jozza1172 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Pitbull15 3 years ago
Pitbull15
Interesting debate...
Posted by Jozza1172 3 years ago
Jozza1172
Ugh, i think my argument lacks alot of grammar or something. and this is a great debate. :)
Posted by Thatoneguylikeshistory 3 years ago
Thatoneguylikeshistory
I being an atheist, actually have to say, religion has had a great impact on the world, to give people the thought of having someone to look up to and rely on through the worsts of time , although it has led to many bloody battles throughout the course of history, people still believed. If anything, it has a great impact on the world, just not for me.
Posted by A341 3 years ago
A341
Just continue the debate, there is no reason to skip a round, I'm sure everyone will overlook it.
Posted by Tiff 3 years ago
Tiff
This can be looked at both ways, but honestly, I would have to agree with Pro.
In the past religion taught spirituality, good morals and all that jazz. In modern day America now, hardly anything positive comes out of religion. Wars, killings, disapproval from parents to children just because they do not choose to believe in the same sky god. Religion can probably have more of a positive effect when humans know how to rationalize better. Teaching good morals, and simply how to be a better person can be established through per say, good parenting and just having better people in general. That's what humans need to work on, not breaking their backs and killing one another for false approvals.
Posted by Jozza1172 3 years ago
Jozza1172
Oh woops. lol first debate, Didnt read urs, i can skip round 2 and count my first argument as round 2 if u want.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Pitbull15 2 years ago
Pitbull15
A341Jozza1172Tied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: This is as obvious as the keyboard I'm typing on right now.
Vote Placed by Finalfan 3 years ago
Finalfan
A341Jozza1172Tied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Con did an ok job of seperating people who interpret the bible literally with those hat see it as metaphor or symbolism. He failed to continue this debate because he was backed into a corner. He almost conceded with his forfeit!