The Instigator
Harrison_Frank_Box
Con (against)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
eloise.borders
Pro (for)
Winning
8 Points

Religion is Helpful in our society.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
eloise.borders
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/2/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 617 times Debate No: 62541
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (4)

 

Harrison_Frank_Box

Con

Hello eloise and i thought this would be a nice debate about religion that i am quite familiar with maybe next time we will steer away from the path of Religion onto something else.

I would first like to say that no it is not helpful in our society, why? Well it is almost harmful to our society the cliams that religion make against scientific progression and other things slow down science and the development of our society for example children being taught creationism in schools when it is far from proven and evolution is based on fact.

Extending on the previous argument religious indoctrination is still around and prevalent many children are labelled as muslim, christian or a hindu without knowing the facts behind them and later on in life when they do see the facts they are so far indoctrinated that they can't even affect them because of their upbringing. For example (and this is quite a personal one) Ilyas is so far indoctrinated that he believes Robin Williams went to hell with no factual or philosophical evidence backing it up this is a prime example of religious indoctrination in its simplest form. This is extremely harmful to the generations of young people and our society.

I know you had no say in pro in con but hopefully you can cope arguing on a side you don't agree :)
eloise.borders

Pro

Hey Harry, great, think we will always be round to saying our views on religion although a Pro is definitely not my view. However based on this afternoon's club I know that this is the way that real debates work.

Religion may be harmful to our society but I believe that our society would be harmed more if we did not have religion in the first place. Somebody I know well and trust the decisions of once said that "Religion promotes war and also serves as a control source" This means that although religion may cause wars between other religions it is a control source for those in vulnerable states. Those people who may have mental disorders or have no ways of expressing themselves due to difficulties such as anger management have a place where they belong and a way of gaining self-control.

On your point of indoctrination of religion, I believe that this means we need modern and relevant teachings of this day and age. This may mean adapting the religious books we already have. I believe that indoctrination happens due to a lack of understanding about religions. I believe that this lack of understanding happens due to not having relevant teachings in the holy books. Also as we learn in Ethics and Philosophy about different religious viewpoints, I believe that most religions should do the same.

If we all knew about each other more then it would be easier for us to understand each other, where we are all coming from in viewpoints and how other people live. This would then decrease the chances of war.

I believe that religious war happens because of this lack of understanding and knowledge.

In the case of your example I would just like to point out the this is Ilyas, I think that is all there is to say on that matter!

Having no say in pro or con does not affect this debate as we all need to think on other sides once in a while.

Hopefully this sounded like Mr Logue ripping Mr Knight's debate to pieces which I must admit was hilarious! :)
Debate Round No. 1
Harrison_Frank_Box

Con

This second point will mainly be showing holes in your argument and presenting new points.

Firstly, I might add that you never mentioned my point on scientific progression and how ridiculous beliefs can harm scientific breakthroughs like cloning, also things like blood transfusions which many Jehovah's witnesses have in essence killed their child due to a disagreement in blood transfusion, is this in any way helpful?

Also about religious indoctrination I think they are so far indoctrinated that a modern viewpoint on beliefs won't help them, until all religious parents don't think hell is real religious indoctrination won't stop as to them it is the most important thing to do for their children so they avoid gods punishment. is like many other religious children who are stubborn beyond belief because of indoctrination causing small child to think of gays going to hell for example which is extremely damaging.

Mentally disabled people do turn to religion as a place to belong where they don't need to think much, however a way to combat this is for them is to use-funded mental health groups which is better than religion to help them as religion spreads false hope to those in need.
I Do agree with you say in religious war but of this is not the case, in northern and southern ireland they understand what happens; they have a close connection through Christianity is broken through protestant and catholic beliefs, these people know what the other agree and this is exactly why the fight so they get the glory of heaven through their false beliefs. Same with the current civil war in Iraq which is mainly a war between Sunni or Shiva; or Islamic dictatorship versus a slight middle-eastern democracy.

Religion claims alt which cannot be justified or proven and fight when it is questioned. I have recalled when someone made a movie about muhammed and taking the mick over a terribly made film. The muslims in return BURNED HOUSES AND KILLED A US AMBASSADOR. Over a movie, and these aren't extremists these are ordinary muslims in iran and iraq this is the norm.

My closing statement is religion has caused more harm than good changing people's mind for the worse in alot of ways, however people's freedom to belief in a religion is part of our free society and this should not be taken away from them.
eloise.borders

Pro

My argument for the religion getting involved in science is as follows. Science is sometimes too advanced for what we could handle. I mean cloning, we could get an army of Hitler's! Meaning even more millions of people would just die. Therefore I believe that it was the right thing to do for religions to protest as we could have a lot worse outcomes if we were able to do these things.

I do agree however that the Jehovah's witnesses are a bunch of pure, uneducated, worthless idiots. However they have a believe in something and they are sticking to it. They have balls for doing that. Most people end up changing and warping their opinions and believes due to how society acts. The Jehovah's witnesses are using their form of religion to show that they are not scared to put their points across, which does not damage society! It helps it because it encourages people to become that little bit braver and to stand up for themselves.

I do agree that children are damaged by indoctrination because of their religion. However this is how they have been taught the religion. It is because of the parents teaching them the wrong things. It is not the religion as a whole. If we were able to educate the children from a younger age, indoctrination would not happen as they would be taught in a more rounded and fair way. This is to say maybe we should start bringing children into school earlier, not for a full-day as we do but as say a morning or afternoon a week in which they could be taught in an unbiased way about other people and the ways of life.

Your point of mentally disabled people going to a funded mental health group is extremely invalid. In England, yes we have funded groups in which to help these people. However, what about in countries where they do not have these funded groups? Where would these people go? Where would they get their stability/a place where they belong? They are forced to go to religion as there is nothing else left for them. Religion is a source of self-control and help in aspects of people's everyday lives.

Also there are people who are depressed and suicidal who have been helped by religion. This is because they could not go to the 'help' groups as they are afraid to speak out for help in society. Religion can help them, therefore meaning that religion does have a place in society!

Yes I agree that the 'war' (disagreement) in Ireland and Northern Ireland is different. This is because they are two different kinds of a religion who had major disagreements. Yes religion can cause things because of everyone's different beliefs but we must always remember that these are our own beliefs and ideas and that we are entitled to them.

Maybe people should not make movies about other religions then. They can make movies about religion in calm sophisticated ways, remember that these people are supposed to be 'adults', then we would not have this problem. These movies can insult people's everyday life which should not be tolerated at all. Yes it is all over a movie but the content and what is hinted at can be the worse. Although I do agree that these people should have thought about the consequences of their actions before they did it.

Yes religion has changed minds but maybe that is a good thing. Like I said before we could have a load of Hitler's running around the world had religion not stepped in, are you saying that religion is bad for stopping this? Also these science experiments are also using embryos which is basically KILLING our 'children of the future' (Miss McClue quote!). Are you also saying this is okay? What is one of these KILLED embryos would have saved our: oil, coal, water, food and planet? We may have thrown away something that could have saved us all!

(Miss McClue will not be happy with your grammar! Nor with mine though use the 'abused' comma again!! ;) )
Debate Round No. 2
Harrison_Frank_Box

Con

Could I just say the point on cloning is quite ridiculous, a million Hitler's? They don't even know where his body is and even so this is the sort of overreaction to technology I would have expected to hear its like saying 'the invention of the Internet, is dangerous as we could make armies online and destroy countries! Yet!' No. This is pure overreaction to a technology not familiar to us yet it was always expected.

Also your second point of Jehovah's witnesses is kind of worrying if I had to say. You make your point saying that you applaud the Jehovah's witnesses as they do not 'warp their beliefs to how society acts' this is quite worrying in the sense. The Jehovah's witnesses kill their children by not getting them blood transfusions and this is a positive thing for society? For saying that they re brave enough to stand for their beliefs? If I said that a unicorn god wants me kill 5 children in order for them to be pure, if I did it would that be a good thing on society because of how much of an crazy, idiot I am? No. It is extremely negative to society and the child's health, making religion far from useful in this situation.

I would also like to point out you flaws in your third paragraph/point you quote 'However this is how they have been taught the religion. It is because of the parents teaching them the wrong things.' You obviously did not fully understand religious indoctrination, infact the parents are teaching them the right things about the religion so they avoid hell that's why they do it. And I would like to say it is the religion as a whole, I have yet to see a theist who became what they were without parents almost all theists have theistic parents its statistically proven to bemore likely. Furthermore i don't think education will completely get rid of the problem, like i said previously parents will not stop indoctrinating children until they don't believe a hell exists and children will always have a special tendency to keep their parents beliefs as its their parents. Also alot of parents disown their children after leaving the faith so education can help but ot a very limited stage.

The argument i am making is in response to your fourth point. Religion as a group will not always help them alot care little for the disabled, on the suicidal front i cannot see one tenant in religion that would help these people? The only one i could think of was by scaring them into the prospect of hell which is a form of mental terrorism. Disabled people have their families, friends and alot of charitable organizations help the mentally disabled in poorer oversea countries so funded mental health groups is extremely valid!

Entitlement to beliefs doesn't help those stuck in religious wars. Just shrugging it of because we must understand they are entitled to them is ridiculous almost immoral. The point i am trying to make is this is a prime example of religion killing and poisoning society, because we cannot argue for those religions who kill in wars as they have no moral front for them to be justified.
'Maybe people should not make movies about other religions then.' Is extremely ridiculous! There techings in the Qu'ran prohibiting images of muhammed causes this bloodshed to happen, in a free world people are entitled to make whatever media they want in family guy it makes a lot of jokes about jews but you never seen buildings burning down and people being killed. This is extremely babyish behaviour and just shows the true intolerance of religion.

Religion has changed tiny child minds for the bad not good, preaching hate, intolerance and that they are the only right ones. It teaches people to not bother because you can just follow the flock of mindless birds not thinking for themselves causing wars and child abuse everyday. Embryos are not HUMANS. They are potential humans like a chickens egg. And the chance that they could do such a thing is like 1 in 10000000000000000.

I hope you get my points :)
eloise.borders

Pro

To be honest I agree with every thing you are saying. Right now with this stuff happening in Syria I believe all you say about indoctrination and all that.

However I still believe that religion can sometimes be used as a source of self control for certain people.

Sorry this debate has ended with me backing down but I believe all things about religion not having a helpful place in society, some people it may be helpful. But most of the times it isn't.
Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Harrison_Frank_Box 2 years ago
Harrison_Frank_Box
I know you did however you said 'If we remove religion from culture that wouldn't necessarily mean that belief in god must cease to persist' I did not say to remove religion at all it is a persons right to their belief.
Posted by MichelleLouise 2 years ago
MichelleLouise
But the question is simply " is religion helpful in society?" I made the point that it is helpful. Just Ask general "butt naked" in Liberia what he would have done without religion. http://www.vice.com...
Posted by Harrison_Frank_Box 2 years ago
Harrison_Frank_Box
I din't say about removing religion just that it isn't helpful and sometimes immoral in our modern society, people have a right to religion in our free democracy this wasn't the point of the debate.
Posted by MichelleLouise 2 years ago
MichelleLouise
If we remove religion from culture that wouldn't necessarily mean that belief in god must cease to persist. How would we prevent that from contributing to the current rise of people utilizing subjective interpretations of "gods word" for personal gain?

Let's say someone who was a criminal or violent offender has turned to religion for moral rehabilitation. They are no longer a criminal or violent offender because they believe that god has changed them and wants them to do good on to evryone. Would they benefit from religion being removed from society?

Is the elimination of religious presence in society worth the dramatic effects that it would have on society? For example, let's say we just eliminated religion. Its banned from society. What potential do our future generations have of bringing rise to programs similar to that of Stalin or Kim jong as people realize the absence of the requirement for objective moral value?
Posted by Innerstrength 2 years ago
Innerstrength
In quantum mechanics, we have learned to approach reality and see everything as probabilities instead of certainties. In a mathematical sense, everything is possible. As well as in science as in our daily lives, the extent to which we can calculate or figure out probabilities is determined by our intellectual capability to recognise patterns. The less biased we are, the clearer we can identify these patterns and base our action on reasonable probabilities. Since it"s in the very nature of our brains left hemisphere to deny ideas that do not fit into our current paradigm, the more attracted we are to a belief system, the less able we are to make conscious choices for ourselves. But by observing this process, we expand our awareness and enhance our free will.
It is said that wisdom comes with age, but with openness and scepticism, the key principles of the scientific method, we don"t need decades of trial and error to sort out which of our convictions may be improbable. The questions is not whether our beliefs are right or wrong, but whether or not being emotionally attached to them is more or less likely to benefit us. There is no such thing as free choice while being emotionally attached to a belief system.
Posted by Harrison_Frank_Box 2 years ago
Harrison_Frank_Box
Woops my grammar was terrible on round 2 i was too busy watching a video while doing it, i should of concentrated more :P
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by republicofdhar 2 years ago
republicofdhar
Harrison_Frank_Boxeloise.bordersTied
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Reasons for voting decision: This debate did not feature very sophisticated arguments. Rebuttals were also rather conjectural. No points to either.
Vote Placed by The-Holy-Macrel 2 years ago
The-Holy-Macrel
Harrison_Frank_Boxeloise.bordersTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I want to vote.
Vote Placed by Commondebator 2 years ago
Commondebator
Harrison_Frank_Boxeloise.bordersTied
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Total points awarded:31 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro essentially did back up at the end, but both arguments were poor. I am leaning towards con on this one. (Spelling and grammar go to pro).
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 2 years ago
dsjpk5
Harrison_Frank_Boxeloise.bordersTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Horrible debate on both sides.