The Instigator
sonofzapp
Pro (for)
Losing
15 Points
The Contender
Patrick_Henry
Con (against)
Winning
26 Points

Religion of Barack Obama being [or not being] Islamic doesnt matter!

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/28/2008 Category: Society
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,436 times Debate No: 2991
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (25)
Votes (11)

 

sonofzapp

Pro

I just don't understand America sometime, like why do people put so much pressure on religion when it comes to presidential candidacy. [did i spell that right? lol] I don't care if ur Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Atheist, or anything else. [besides satanist] Just because u may believe differently from others doesn't mean you'll b any less of a good leader. Though Barack Obama denies any claims to being muslim, despite his background within the muslim heritage, if he were Islamic would it really matter that much? Yeah so a few muslims get jealous of America, and begin a whole war with us, [or so we are told] BIG DEAL! Just because a few ignorant muslims misinterpret the word of the Koran in a sadistically murderous fashion, doesn't mean that all muslims do the same. I am a 15 year old muslim afro-american, and id have no problems voting 4 a christian president. [despite the fact that we, as voters are rarely given any alternatives...and that i cant vote] Just because you catch a few bad apples doesn't mean that u chop down the whole tree! You simply pick them out and leave the rest be. American christians seem to forget that christians were the first to indulge in the slave trade. Christians were the first to begin a large-scale genocide, [of the Jewish people, obviously] and that they, up until roughly 30 years ago, were no better then some of the muslim insurgents we see today. They would kill, beat, and any other violent act that comes to mind, anyone who were openly opposed to how they operated. Now we as americans hide behind our false sense of equality, democracy, and justice. Were that the case, people wouldn't be so opposed to having a muslim president. Its just a bad time for Islamic's, and this is their first open offense to other heritages in centuries! All I'm trying to say is that muslims; like christians simply need time to learn, adapt, and evolve. Christians got their chance. Now they no longer do as they did fifty years ago, u no y, because they have learned better. Muslims simply need the same time to fully understand their religion, and to grasp what the Quran truly means. Are they; we, as people not at least entitled to that? I'm not at all trying to give religious extremist's an excuse to get by, [because i loathe them just as much as the next guy] is just trying to say that Christian-Americans need to be more accepting of the true muslims. The ones who pray and give charity, aren't afraid to give a smile, and accept other religions just as they do their own. Not the ones who bomb buildings, murder "infidels", [as they call them] and kill innocents falsely in the name of god. If u all will not at least accept and acknowledge our existence, then at least tolerate it. Is that so much to ask, for I ask not as a muslim; but as a human being. If america is truly the land of the "free" and home of the "brave", and so many other titles we've given ourselves over the years then y r we labelling entire groups of people as "Evil", "Ignorant", and "Blastphemeous." I'm done ranting, all I'm saying is that just because Barack is suspect to being a muslim doesn't mean its a bad thing, for all we know it may be good for us. A chance to learn of a different culture, and heritage, it should help us become more tolerant of others as a whole. Though I myself hold little favor for Barack doesn't mean i cant sympathize with his situation. [and just cause I'm black doesn't mean id vote for him. I personally think he's just fronting.] His presidential candidacy is suffering because of the biased, prejudice, opinions of a few ignorant voters. As a candidate he deserves the right to a fair, unbiased, election, doesn't he? If not as a candidate, or muslim, but as a person. I think so, and i believe that though you push the thought to the back of your head whenever it resurfaces, you think so too. Am I right, or am I mistaken, or are you unsure? Whatever your opinion, don't be shy to express it. Ill be waiting for your reply.
Patrick_Henry

Con

The religious viewpoints of Senator Obama matter. The religious viewpoints of any leader matter. The true variable is whether or not the leader actually manifests their beliefs in their behavior.

That being said, Senator Obama is probably not a Muslin. He's a Methodist, for better or worse, and attends the Trinity Methodist Church. http://www.tucc.org...

The Senator's Church has also raised some issues about his faith, as it is an all black church that stands for "restoration" among many other things.

The religion of a person does matter. Morality and ethics are often shaped by a persons religious views in some way or another, and there are many religious beliefs which might not be the most beneficial for a leader to have. Forinstance, if Senator Obama believed that the Messiah was soon to return, true believers raptured, and the world to end just a little while later, The Senator might not be the best leader for creating policies to plan for the future.

Now the Christian faith advises certain behaviors. Among them include not bearing false witness, not stealing, and not coveting thy neighbors goods. Sometimes a leader must misrepresent the truth, whether politically based or something more serious, there are times when even a good leader will bear false witness. Theft is often times an important tool of state craft, and so is killing people. The genocide of the American natives and the seizure of their "ancestral lands" were very important things to get done. Otherwise the United States wouldn't be much of a very good country if the leaders were concerning themselves with being Christian.

So, not only does a persons religious views matter, but the level of devotion with which they carry them out does. I would hate to have a leader that refuses to consider a policy that might bring about good things for their people or their government on account of some religious dogma. The media has been doing a poor job of covering why one's religious views matter.

Religious beliefs have been behind the justification for most of the brutal and terrible acts committed by humans on other humans. While today we're not using religion as an excuse to commit genocide in North America, the United States is still full of people and politicians that want to use, and do use religion to justify not extending full legal rights to other Americans.
Debate Round No. 1
sonofzapp

Pro

Ok overall Patrick u seem 2 b a pretty intelligent guy, I respect that. Unlike many on this site u back your arguments with philosophy, and facts, as opposed to biased opinion. U seem like the type of guy I could get along with in reality, but I gotta say that some of your words are heavy with ignorance.

First and foremost; I'd like to say how disgusted I am with your views on the theft of native American land. I have Cherokee blood in me, coming from my great, great, grandmother, and I will admit that the conquest of foreign lands is often necessary to secure and expand ones own boundaries; but to truly conquer a people and their lands, you must gain a positive hold over their minds, and beliefs, [though in most cases this is bad too] but come on dude, a GENOCIDE!, and whats worse is that many of them were rapped and enslaved, murdered by means of biological warfare, and forced to watch their lands be taken by invaders who had owned them their lives! Rather then kill them all out, despite the fact that many natives wanted to help the settlers, why not simply coexist with them. The natives were ready and willing to do as such, but the settlers [or should I say slavers] became greedy, and rather simply take what they were given, they decided they wanted more! Despite what I've just said to u, yes I do agree, sometimes u gotta do a little dirt [or in this case, alot of dirt] to assure a greater good, its just the way u begin your conquest that counts for weather u were wrong or not. Do not slaughter, or enslave, the natives, of a land but simply coexist with them if at all possible, and if impossible then get them to believe as u do, in a positive fashion. [we should start a debate on this topic, after this 1]

With that being said, BACK TO THE DEBATE! [lol]

I must agree with the fact that yes in many cases a persons religion can hold them down, and in the case of a president, it could also hold down the rest of the country. When you were talking about that messiah thing im guessing you were referring to those of the Jewish faith. Yes you present a valid point, but any Jewish man that believed that the time of the savior was soon to come, probably wouldn't waste their time running for president, especially if they'd just slow down the progress of America in the process. Thats just common sense. Anyone in this situation that would run for president would probably only do it to better the country before judgement day, and it that case it would be a good thing. If I thought the world was soon to end then I'd do all the repenting humanly possible, [either that or i'd have fun in my last moments] and if at all possible i'd try to help as many along the way as I could. If we had a president like this then I'm pretty sure that we'd have more benefits then negative repercussions.

On another note I'd have to say that weather a person actually "manifests their beliefs" into their behavior doesn't matter either. Though we have a First Amendment's right to express our religions as we see fit, our beliefs must be separated from our state. "Separation of church and state", thats what we call it, so once again, what a president believes doesn't matter because he cannot apply it to his political decisions. In fact the state is at fault for not following up on that law because of the fact that we have the overall concept of God integrated into much of our society. "One nation UNDER GOD..." is in our pledge of allegiance, "In GOD we trust" is printed on our currency", and while in court a security guard asks "Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, or so help you GOD?" Im not saying that this is a bad thing, for I believe in God too, but if the state is at fault and is too lazy to act on their OWN LAWS, then why must the president be bound to their hypocritical views of political correctness. Obama and any other person who wishes to be president is completely entitled to believe as they wish. No matter what that may be, they have the right to a swift, respectful, and fair election.

FYI. I knew Obama wasn't muslim, but a few other idiots did not, and wouldn't accept him if he were.
Patrick_Henry

Con

I'm going to begin this round by pointing out to you that what you just described is the very definition of genocide and ethnic cleansing. By your own claim you, you are 1/32nd Cherokee. This is also a part of ethnic cleansing, you yourself are a legacy of a ethnicity being obliterated in its final hours as every generation contains less and less "blood" of the targeted people. While the genocide and ethnic cleansing were not complete, the effects there of have almost completely destroyed the civilizations of the native nations. While you claim blood, or descent from the Cherokee, my guess is that you practice very few of their cultural observances, know none of their language, history, or practices. And this is where your own religion might matter, because the Cherokee were heathens and for you to show reverence to your ancestors, and the spirits which they themselves revered is typically frowned on.

Perhaps you could benefit yourself with a quick education on the "Trail of Tears", which pertains to your own "blood." The Cherokee nation originally was based in Georgia. Someone, Andrew Jackson, decided that even though the Cherokee had become about as anglicized as possible, many of them even becoming Christian, that they had to be forced off of their land because of a rumor of there being gold in them there hills. And, many of them voluntarily moved. Then they were sent on this little long march to settle in Oklahoma, which for some reason involved them stopping in Nebraska along the way. It's not called the trail of tears because it was a happy little romp through the nation's country side.

Now to the thesis of the debate…

I was actually referring to Christianity. The Hebrew people have been waiting for their Messiah for a while, and they've actually become pretty patient and unpresuming about it. The Christians in theory are waiting for the "return' of their Messiah. Which most of them thought was going to happen pretty soon, and in the education of fundamentalism in Christianity, they basically attempt to give the impression that it's just around the corner.

While you might prepare yourself in the final days by seeking attonement, perhaps you are not of the religious belief that after you perform a series of steps that you are "saved," and do not have to worry about your fate any longer. This, of course, is the sin of presumption, but no one seems to talk about the fact that it's a blasphemy of the holy spirit, which seems to be one of the only things not forgiven. Many of these "saved" individuals believe that before the end times even begin, the "true believers" will be plucked from the Earth by god like roses, leaving the daisies and violets to suffer the seven trials and tribulations.

A person with this belief should not be trusted with a long term planning of a government, people, or race. This is one very good example as to why religion matters. If you cannot foresee your nation existing in 400 years because you think the world and final judgment is coming within your life time, then you can do nothing to ensure that your nation might be around for 400 years. If you decide that the most important part of education is the spiritual salvation of a person, because this final judgment is coming, perhaps they will not learn the history they will need to guide them through their generation's sovereignty of the nation. Or the science, math, or anything else to justify our self appointed status of super power.

While the Constitution offers a right of religious freedom, it does not mean that it grants our leaders the ability to completely turn off their religious views. Often times the morality of a person is not directly linked to their justifications of that morality. I live my life as a pragmatist before anything else, so I understand that morality is very fluid. Yet often times when someone decides that something is "wrong", they do so without considering whether what is "wrong" is a good idea.

Belief does matter. Often times it is one of the first things people will use to define themselves. Many times it is something a person uses to justify their existence. Whether Christian or Muslim, it cannot be cut from a person's life. I have absolutely no beliefs, and I am still strapped to a cultural construct where to express myself adequately I must evoke a blasphemy to a god that I don't care exists.

Another fine example is that if you believe the rights which we enjoy actually come from God, and therefore God is watching out for them, perhaps you're not doing enough to protect these rights.
Debate Round No. 2
sonofzapp

Pro

sonofzapp forfeited this round.
Patrick_Henry

Con

Man cannot separate himself from his religious views. If they can, then they are no longer upholding those religious views. Therefore the self professed beliefs of an individual should always be taken into account before rewarding them with great power.
Debate Round No. 3
25 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by sonofzapp 9 years ago
sonofzapp
sorry patrick, ive been gone 4 ever, but just so u no the cherokee werent heathens, they believed in an all powerful, all knowing, spirit over spirits called the great spirit. Which is the native equivelent to the christian, jewish and muslim concept of god.
Posted by byebyepats 9 years ago
byebyepats
sense religion dictates foreign policy, i think ones religion is very pertinent
Posted by theaceb 9 years ago
theaceb
oh damnit, yeah I meant Methodist, my point was that there shouldn't be any debate about him being Muslim, because he is obviously a Protestant
Posted by Patrick_Henry 9 years ago
Patrick_Henry
Theaceb,

Whether or not you think he is a baptist, Senator Obama is a self proclaimed Methodist. When it comes to religion, it's so personal you are what you claim you are. Unfortunately, there's really no structure in Protestant faiths to decide who is and who isn't actually a believer.
Posted by elawson 9 years ago
elawson
I made em up! You a little miffed?

http://www.prophetofdoom.net...
Posted by theaceb 9 years ago
theaceb
Everyone does know that Barack Obama is undeniably a Babtist right?
Posted by sonofzapp 9 years ago
sonofzapp
oH yeah elawson, youve yet 2 tell me what book(s) u got those quotes from. Did u look them up yourself, did a friend tell them to you, did u gettem off da net, or did u not do any readcing at all? Plz answer I'd like to know.
Posted by sonofzapp 9 years ago
sonofzapp
Patrick who were u talking to when u said that.
Posted by Patrick_Henry 9 years ago
Patrick_Henry
Right.

Considering that by September 12th, 2001 that every "Islamic" nation in the world was offering both intelligence and assets to the United States in an effort to at the efforts of the United States to bring those responsible to justice, I don't think that's a very good comparison. Not to mention the difference between a handful of individuals, and every nation in Europe is pretty significant too. The comparison of the long term impacts between the Crusades and September 11th, 2001 is going to be a great contrast too.

You should remember that on the same day, September 12th, 2001 the cover of the London newspaper headline, "We're all Americans now" that every nation mourned with us. While it was an attack on our soil, it was an attack against the global community as dozens of countries lost citizens in the tragedy, and the attack had negative consequences on the global economy.

If you want to uses such a narrow view of that event to justify ignorance, I likely wasted my words attempting to educate you previously. It's not like wraith is a sin or anything awful like that.
Posted by elawson 9 years ago
elawson
9/11 kind of ruined my relations with Muslims period. Just wondering if you were one of those who danced in the street on that Black day.
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