The Instigator
tmkahstar
Pro (for)
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The Contender
GalenWorks
Con (against)
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Religion vs Atheism and their moral superiority

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/1/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 702 times Debate No: 83274
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
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tmkahstar

Pro

This argument involves religion vs atheism, and whether or not one has superior morals over the other. Both have valid arguments on why they are superior and why the other is not. I will be arguing for the side of religion, but I in truth have no exact opinion on which is better. I simply have more knowledge from a religious perspective and would like to see what the result is.
GalenWorks

Con

I want to thank you this is the first debate I have gotten into so lets start out with the basics. I am an atheist who thinks we do indeed have superior morals. So lets get started on the first thing I want to go over.
Atheists Value of life:
As atheists we try to make life the best we can and we believe that once we die it's all over. We could not escape the guilt that would come to doing anything wrong to a person since you could either made their lives miserable or end it all together. To sum it up we basically don't want people to have their one life to be miserable or short as we have empathy.
Christians Value of life:
However when you are a Christian the only thing you derive your morals from is the bible. Which is one of the worst examples of morals ever displayed. For example the ten commandments leaves out slavery and rape completely with the first half being how to and how to not worship God. Also this
Exodus 35:2
"On six days work may be done, but the seventh day shall be sacred to you as the sabbath of complete rest to the LORD. Anyone who does work on that day shall be put to death."
Which is an exact excerpt from the bible and is a poor way to treat people who work to keep our civilization running. Do you really think you should get morals from the bible? After all there are many more immoral things in the bible especially when God does it.
This is a big problem I have here next. This would make murder right in the christian since. You see your God said that he had a plan that is his design and ultimately good. So if you murdered a family it would be in gods plan and his plan is ultimately good.
Another point is when christians say to be Godly. Well God has murdered a lot of people by either, drowning the whole Earth, turning a woman into a pillar of salt because she liked fireworks, and sodom and Gomorrah.
Debate Round No. 1
tmkahstar

Pro

You do make some very valid points. However I do believe that while many of the Christian morals do stem from the Bible, I think that a majority of the Christian community do not accept the Bible to be absolute truth. I do recognize that there are many who take the Bible as pure fact, but many have translated the Bible in a more symbolic sense. This being said, I think many ideas from the bible have been eliminated from a Christian view of morals. The idea of one being put to death for work on the Sabbath is clearly not accepted as a true Christian belief in this day and age, or else there would be many people (Christians included) whom the Church would have condemned. I do however believe that because of this lack of clear understanding in the Bible's truths the Bible is somewhat flawed, but being Christian is far more than following what the Bible says. It's about having a relationship with God, working hard to be a good person, and being accepting and forgiving of others. A true christian individual is one who has a strong faith in God, obeys the commandments as best they can while also obeying general rules of morality (Your example of slavery and rape), and is also accepting of people of other beliefs even if those beliefs oppose their own. This is what a true christian individual represents, however many people who claim to be Christians fail at this yes, but I believe there are many Atheists who fail to be as morally adequate as they claim they beliefs make them. There are many with atheistic beliefs who condemn all religion and people of religious background, simply because their belief has scientific proof. They use this as an excuse to claim to be superior. While I agree the idea of atheism is more factual and certainly is more likely than the idea of religion, this doesn't give them any form of superiority over religious individuals (at least not the aforementioned "true" individuals). If someone chooses to believe in a greater force watching out for them as a loving creator, they should be allowed to have this belief without being ridiculed. Many Religious people have their faith as a form of hope for themselves. Their religion may act as a reminder of something greater than any hardships they are currently facing, and regardless of whether they're belief is factually correct, I would consider it morally wrong to try and strip them of this hope simply because one feels they are superior due to their belief having more scientific accuracy. And we are also forgetting religion outside of Christianity. Buddhism, Islam, Judaism. All Religions have negative aspects, and radical practitioners who make a bad name for their denomination, but so does atheism. But when broken down into their truest nature (ex the "true" christian) they have a truly morally correct system of beliefs.
GalenWorks

Con

I do agree that the bible is flawed because of this. There is no distinction between metaphorical and actual morality. There for you cannot make guesses on something if you are uncertain about it. This is just guessing what is real morality and what is just metaphorical. The Bible is claimed to be true so in that since everything about morality should be followed. We don't even need to be doing something nice for a greater purpose we do it so we can help people and future generations. Now I know you were saying forget the bible we do it for God (correct me if i'm wrong) but we can't use that for any base for morality. If you do it for God we don't mind we just hate when you waste your time and resources on him when you could be generous to something or someone else.
Debate Round No. 2
tmkahstar

Pro

I agree with you on the idea that perhaps doing good and caring for other people may have certain advantages over doing it strictly for God, but keep in mind that those who are truly good Christians do good things because they feel it is right, not just for God. Those who try to be morally good but think only of their future with God, or even just think of "impressing" God are not the truest form of Christian individuals. Only those who do good for the sake of other people, while still keeping Gods own presence in mind are the truest Christians. Just as I believe the purest form of atheism is those who do good things purely out of compassion and a willingness to help others. But there are many atheists who do good with only the intent of improving their image, or even merely to try and prove atheism better than religion. There are negatives to both sides, but I think when broken down into their truest forms they are one equal grounds. There are just as many atheists ready to condemn those who have a faith as there are religious individuals ready to condemn those who don't follow their beliefs. In my eyes the truest forms of each are on equal ground, but this is about seeing the result of a debate between the two and seeing who is believed to be the more morally superior. I argue for the religious side due to a religious background, but believe both sides are morally equally. I now simply wish to see which side is considered more superior by the majority
GalenWorks

Con

Yes but if christians do it for other people and they don't get from God or the Bible then it is the same as atheist morality in that since mind you. But the reality is most of the time christians help they go on mission trips which is a bit off topic I know. But they don't really help I mean occasionally they bring food and water maybe even a well but it will not help in the long run. So I have no idea where christians get their morality if they can't take the bible seriously and don't do it to get brownie points from God then why do they care. If doing the right thing is to spread your word then it basically means you only care about conversion. However I will move on. Lets have a versus
Christian
- Derives morals from a 2000 year old book that is highly contradictable and cannot be differed from truth or metaphor
- Believes that he or she has eternal life after they die eluding the fear of death
- God has a plan so if I do anything immoral, thats ok God planned it!
Atheist
- Derives morals from empathy
- Believes they and everyone else have one life and would highly regret anything they did to that person in that life time
- Well just admit this one, we have a reason to appreciate life of us and others more.
Now I can't really tap anything else on the topic who has "better morals" but listen if you had one life instead of an eternity after. Why would you want to do anything wrong to a person or animal (emphasize animal)? Because we don't have anyone to forgive what we have done and shake it off. We deal with these things and learn from them to better our current state and our future.
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by canis 1 year ago
canis
Tina Turner sang : "Be true to your self and you can`t go wrong". Another wrote: "Most people die before they were ever born"..We are born true to ourself. But so is a virus. Moral can not really change that ?
Posted by missmedic 1 year ago
missmedic
the three most influential religions in the world (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) stem from books written during the Bronze and Iron ages long before people understood the science of biology and human behavior. Clearly thousands of years of moral instruction from these religions have never produced a workable moral system (do I really need to go into wars, slavery, pogroms, witch hunts, intolerance's, etc. to explain this?)

Since humans live in the natural world and science provides the only tools to understand the natural world, it follows that science might provide us with the best way to establish workable moral systems. Unfortunately, much of human nature remains unknown to us and scientists have barely begun to study moral systems. Moreover, the dogmatic belief that morality can only come from religion further bars people from thinking about it, even from many scientists.
Posted by Jerry947 1 year ago
Jerry947
The Christian argument is not about which group of people has the superior morals. It is about atheists having no reason to be moral.
Posted by missmedic 1 year ago
missmedic
When belief progresses towards faith and dogma, the problems escalate and become more obvious. We see this in religions and political ideologies, especially those that contain scripts (bibles, manifestos) which honor war, intolerance, slavery and superstitions. The tragedy of 9/11 could not have occurred without religious belief in an afterlife. Only religion produces the concept of moral war.
Why does religious belief create such monstrous atrocities? Because religion expresses everything into terms of belief, faith, and absolutes, without need for reason or even understanding. Religion puts reality, morality, love, happiness and desire in a supernatural realm inaccessible to the mind of man. How can humans ever achieve peace when their religious scripts has their god condoning war and violence, while man must accept the superstitious belief that their unknowable god does this for mysterious reasons, forever beyond the comprehension of man? How can you understand the physics of the universe if you believe that an unfathomable supernatural agent created everything just a few thousand years ago? How can you live a full happy life if your religion denies the nature of sex, desire, and mind? How can you have workable government if you believe laws derive from an incomprehensible super-being? How can you have the future of the planet or your grand children if you believe that supernatural predestination will end the world?
Posted by canis 1 year ago
canis
In the purest form
The theist : Religion = moral..Take away religion and it looks like this : 0,0 religion = 0,0 moral.
The atheist : Knowing = moral..Take away knowlegde and it looks like this : 0,0 knowlegde = 0,0 moral.
Posted by astronerd0008 1 year ago
astronerd0008
i'm with you galenworks.
Posted by missmedic 1 year ago
missmedic
The simplest question about morality (slavery) the bible got wrong, what does that tell you?
First off the bible does not meet the criteria for a credible source.
Second there are over 1000 commandments in the bible, and nowhere in the bible does your god say that you can pick and choose the commandments you like and neglect the rest, nor does your god say that you can reduce the punishment he has imposed for breaking them.
So my question is this, when you choose not to kill in gods name as he has commanded, what morality are you using.
Because real morality is a choice not a command.
Real morality uses reason not faith.
Posted by Keith6544 1 year ago
Keith6544
@NathanPoole234 not even Dawkins himself could've said it better mate
Posted by NathanPoole234 1 year ago
NathanPoole234
The Bible is not a thing you should get your morals from. It screwed in the Old Testament but decent in the New Testament. Like the Atheist said anyone shall be put to death if worked on Sunday, or the day of Sabbath. As an atheist I think we both have morals that each of us are different from one another. Atheist have to value life more than Christians do! I mean, lets be honest here as an Atheist I believe once I die I'm going to be cremated and be ashes for a long as those ashes are there. Kinda depressing huh? Yea, well from a religious standpoint we go to an afterlife where everything is happy and we have no worries and we worship our "Lord and Savior" or whatever. Its like saying since you're not religious you don't have any morals but as humans we have guilt and we have remorse. While as an Atheist we have to live with those choices we made. From a religious standpoint they can just close their hands together say a few words to themselves and they feel better, like they shouldn't be punished since they've been "forgiven" by the Lord. I love this site and these arguments, I just thought I should put my two cents in. Good debate!
Posted by tmkahstar 1 year ago
tmkahstar
same to you
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