The Instigator
RHPSskankk
Con (against)
Losing
9 Points
The Contender
kykrebs
Pro (for)
Winning
39 Points

Religion was a mistake.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/22/2008 Category: Society
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,522 times Debate No: 3738
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (4)
Votes (16)

 

RHPSskankk

Con

mmmmm. Whoever chooses to debate, go for it first. I like to hear what the other person has to say first.
kykrebs

Pro

Religon: the service and worship of God (Merriam-Webster)

Mistake: to misunderstand the meaning or intention of (Merriam-Webster)

As you can see, what I am going to be arguing is that the worship of god was misunderstood, and people used it to make what they are doing okay, no matter what it was.

The first example: Religious Wars

The Crusades are recognized as the first true ‘religious wars'. They were actually many wars in the crusades. The First Crusade (1095-1099) was officially started by Pope Urban II, in which he promised all those who fought automatic remission of their sins. No where in the bible does it state that if you fought you would be relieved of your sins. What it does teach is that to accept people of different religions, different cultures, and different backgrounds. The result of the first crusade was the deaths of thousands of people, mainly the civilians in the city of Jerusalem that were massacred. They were 17 more crusades, The Second Crusade,The Third Crusade, The Fourth Crusade, The Albigensian Crusade , The Children's Crusade, The Fifth Crusade, The Sixth Crusade, The Seventh Crusade, The Eighth Crusade, The Ninth Crusade, The Northern Crusades (against germany and the Baltic states), The Crusade Against the Tartars, The Crusade in the Balkans, Aragonese Crusade, Alexandrian Crusade, Hussite Crusade, and the Swedish Crusade.
Another example of religious war is The French Wars of Religion, a series of wars that took place in the 16th century. The 30 Year War is also a good example of Christian Religious Warfare. In the Islam Religion, Jihad is often repeatedly misunderstood, which to clarify is defined by mujtahids to basically living a good muslim life and spreading the message of Islam, there are extremists who take this and they think they must destroy what the extremists call the ‘infidels' which basically means non believer. Judaism has been forced to repeatedly fight in religious wars by other religions that feel that their holy land belongs to them.

Second Example: Religious Persecution

Many people have thought throughout history that those who don't believe should be destroyed or converted. Many people not wanting to change from their religion have been then destroyed. A famous example was the Holocaust. Nazism, which was devoted to specifically one type of worship of god, imprisoned many other religions. Most known were the People of the Jewish Faith, over 6 million Jews were killed during the holocaust. Another less known example were the catholics that were arrested and sent to death camps, only a few thousand catholics were killed.
The jews have been persecuted for thousands of years for not believing in what other people define as ‘God'. Starting back in ancient Egypt, when the jews were forced into slavery just because of their beliefs. Other famous persecutions of jews was the jewish persecution in the Russian Empire. Jews were repeatedly attacked, and anti-semitism was very strong in the Russian Empire. Many Jews had to immigrate to other countries because anti-jewish feeling was extremely strong.

Third Example: Religious Intolerence

The other day in teen court, another volunteer started to talk about god, his role on earth, and how non believers would all be sent to hell. The question I have for you is, If I don't believe in what you don't believe in, why do I have to burn in your hell? (Rhetorically) This girl ranted for about 10 minutes on how young kids in india were going to die and burn in hell because they didn't believe in her god. If you look at this, this point is what is the main reason for examples one and two, and is the biggest misunderstanding in religion.

God, Allah, all of those preach acceptance and love, yet everyday we hear about all of these daily occurrences. That is why I believe that religion was a mistake, or rather a misunderstanding of religion.
Debate Round No. 1
RHPSskankk

Con

I agree with you that religion has caused many disputes and many problems throughout history and still do even to this day, much like racism. But I suppose my question is: which would be worse? The world we have now with religion and faith, or a world without religion or faith? A world where we all accept that we have to defend ourselves, and that sometimes we're the only one fighting for ourselves, and there's nothing to persevere for. That is my main question, which of those two worlds would cause the most issues and suffering, and chaos? Was religion, the very beginning when someone thought "hey, there could be a god up there" was this a mistake all together? Should this have happened?

Religion does have so many misunderstandings. A lot of Christians are looked at as some sort of demanding array, and Islamics are looked at as a hateful religion by many when in reality, the world Islamic derives from the same semitic root as the Hebrew word Shalom, which means peace, so that leads me to believe that the original intent of Mohammed was not to start a holocaust of any sort, which has happened not only in the Islamic religion, but others as well. I firmly believe that people corrupted religion, not the religion itself. Like Mohandas Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." But there will be misunderstandings with everything, it is impossible for different religions and perfect understanding to co-exist.

You must, however, take into account the many outstanding things religion has not only done for individuals, but things that religion tends to keep from happening.

Perseverance is the state or quality of being insistent. Perseverance is to keep moving forward, to keep going, regardless of circumstances. There is so much pain and sorrow in the world, so many unfair things happen, so many deaths, so many situations where strength is put to the test, so many people with low self esteem, what's the point of moving forward if there's nothing but a coffin to look forward to? I believe if religion was non-existent, suicide rates would go up. Go up, or in fact not just go up but be a common situation. If I am to persevere with meaning, let me persevere. But if I am to persevere for things to go from low to worse, and if there is a race to finish, but the same prize is given to everyone in the end, why am I to persevere? I can say from personal experience that without my strong faith, I likely would not be here today, but would have given in to dark thoughts a long time ago. Just throwin' that out there.

Another point as well is morality. People have individual moralities, depending on religion and person feelings, but there is still a basic guideline of morality that is accepted by society. Such as do not murder, do not steal, do not harm yourself physically or others, etc. Most of these all derived from basic guidelines given to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and were taught as absolute law back in the day (or you could be put to death, which still exist in some circumstances today). The Golden Rule, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" It is (but able to be debated) the most essential basis for the modern concept of human rights. Matthew 7:12 is where the "Golden Rule" came from, but not only that but many verses say the same thing, but in different words. Such as Leviticus 19:34, "But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God" Now, another question is, would morality (such as the Golden Rule and others as well) have existed if this religion had never existed? One could say common human conscience could have figured this out on their own. But children do not grow up treating each other as they want to be treated (I baby sit sometimes, and if one of them hits the other, they always get hit right back) and children are rather selfish too. They learn otherwise because of what they are taught, and how they are taught to handle people. But in the beginning of the world, whenever that was, if they were to have no teacher to teach them these things, are you saying we would have been able to teach that to ourselves? With religion comes morality. Morality is simply the attitude we adopt toward people whom we personally dislike, if there was no basis for morality, who's to say it would exist? Not only that, but REASON for morality. Because in the Hindu religion it is good deeds that get you the prize, in Christianity it says "Love your neighbor and care for others" and if you do not do just that, then you will be sentenced to death, rather than eternal life. Or in the Hindu religion, you would reincarnate to a lowly state. If there is nothing stopping us from becoming utterly immoral, why be moral?

I have a couple more points, but I will let my opponent speak before I give them ;]
kykrebs

Pro

You make realy good points, and they seem to make sense so in order to help sign post I will take the arguement paragraph by paragraph.

I am also going to do this refutation in two different ways, the first part being in true debate style, the second part going into a more philosophical debate (that seems to be more of what you are looking for) so here we go.

Part 1:Because you agree with my definitions and analysis (you specifically stated that relgion does have misunderstandings) you do nothing but agree with my side of the debate. Going along with the facts that you haven't proved that religion doesn't cause misunderstandings, the voters can see nothing but a pro ballet. To strengthen my arguement, all i have to prove is that religion is misunderstood. With my three points, i have clearly showed this, and my opponets arguement was that he agreed with me.

Part 2: (This is going to be longer and in more depth)(i think people should have religion, so this is all debate, fyi :)
So as to your question, was it all a mistake; i think we can pretty much say yes it was; but there was no way to prevent it. According to the pope himself, as well as many philosophers themselves, humans want by nature to believe in something higher than themselves. All of the ancient societies had many gods and its only been in the last few centuries that secular humanism, and atheism has really come about. And for the arguement that without religion suicide rates go up? (I am not using totalitarian governments where the religion has been forced upon the citizens). Of the top 25 nations ranked on the 'Human Development Index' in which the United Nations bases all the nations on life expectancy, education, literacy, income, etc. All of the nations, except for Ireland and the United States, have a large population of atheists (such as Norway, Sweden, Canada, Netherlands, and Ausralia). The bottom fifty countries on the list also had the lowest atheist levels on earth. Going off of infant-mortality rate, irreligious countries had some of the lowest rates, while other religious countries had some of the highest rates. Going specifically to your suicide question, while the former soviets countries such as lithuania, belarus, latvia do have some of the highest suicide rates, this is actually contributed to the poverty, and economic hardships faced by these people. The Scandanavian countries where atheists are quite a large population (in sweden around 85% have identified themselves as atheist, or 7,638,000 people; in norway around 72%, or 3,294,000 people; and denmark at 80% of people, or 4,330,000 people) (CIA World Factbook), are actually not even close to being the top suicide rates. In fact these countries that do not worhship god have some of the lowest HIV/AIDS rate because they don't have people objecting to sex education. People also seem to be more accepted in these atheist countries, where gender equality is the highest in the world, according to national geographic they are also the most democratic, and homosexuality is not condemned.

Finally, to your last arguement for morality, are not Buddhists some of the most moral people on earth? They don't have a god to look to, but rather towards self-actualization. And if we look towards morality being taught, did the gods really come down to earth and show us how to be nice, or was it rather part of human nature to help fellow humans. We are by nature social, and we can't stand to be apart from human companionship. People don't want to be near people who are rude, so we adapt by being nice and helping out other people. Morality can be taught by people, philosophers such as john locke, voltaire who were not religious were quite able to find ways for people to better behave and act in society.
Debate Round No. 2
RHPSskankk

Con

Sorry I was out at a conference trip.
I don't have the time now to post my arguements, but next round I will.

;] <3
kykrebs

Pro

i will skip this round too... i have my first lincoln douglass debate tonight so i have been preparing a whole bunch of stuff on hate crime enhancements...ugh (all the work, not hate crime enhancements :)
Debate Round No. 3
RHPSskankk

Con

RHPSskankk forfeited this round.
kykrebs

Pro

kykrebs forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by HellKat 9 years ago
HellKat
"The Jews have been persecuted most by people who believe in their very same God. Who read the very same bible full of Jewish tradition and culture..."

Well actually, while that has been a big part of it, they were persecuted by the Egyptians a lot I think, I don't know if this was after they identified themselves as Jews, and as for Hitler, I don't think that he followed any relgion. Though you are right about them being persecuted a lot by Christians. I'm not sure about Muslims though.
Posted by DoubleXMinus 9 years ago
DoubleXMinus
"The jews have been persecuted for thousands of years for not believing in what other people define as ‘God'."

The Jews have been persecuted most by people who believe in their very same God. Who read the very same bible full of Jewish tradition and culture...
Posted by fitzt21 9 years ago
fitzt21
i really like that this debate wasn't just another god does exist vs. god doesn't exist...it was interesting to read...
Posted by HellKat 9 years ago
HellKat
I agree with you that religion has caused many disputes and many problems throughout history and still do even to this day, much like racism.

Do you mean racism was caused by religion, because it most definatly wasn't.
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