The Instigator
ben671176
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
MagicAintReal
Con (against)
Winning
1 Points

Religions in general makes more sense and are more moral than Atheism

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
MagicAintReal
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/10/2015 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 510 times Debate No: 76405
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (1)

 

ben671176

Pro

First post is agreement to rules and that you will argue.

Rules:

1. No stuff about past problems of any claim. Like for example: Saying an entire religion is horrible for a small group of Extremists

2. No player to player fighting or belittling (trolling)

3. If you are going to undermine someone's source(s) then you have to provide the reasons why.

4. No internet slang or extreme dialect, nor texting language. If it is used by either side, the other side can only complain about it in the Comment section.

5. No Peer Pressure (AKA groups of Theists bashing an Atheist and vice versa)

6. If you make a claim, you need evidence to support it.
Ex: {Debater 1: Atheism is stupid.
{Debater 2: Why is it stupid?
{Debater 1: Because it is!

7. Each side gets to choose one small thing that they think should be obvious and true.
Examples:

Jesus is real (of course you cannot add whether or not he is a child of god, this can be debated)

The Big Bang is real (you cannot add that it is supporting just Atheism, this can be debated)

8. Have fun! No vulgar!
MagicAintReal

Con

Let's take christianity for example, or judaism (same principle god). Today we regard slavery as immoral. It is considered immoral to own another human and beat them for punishment. But these two common religions' holy book approves of slavery and provides us with rules for ownership of humans.
How do we reject this idea of slavery? Our innate moral sense which is devoid of religion or teachings from a holy book. If we used our religion in this case, we would determine that slavery is moral.

Atheism has no set of morals or any moral book to turn to. Atheism is not believing in a god. You could be moral or immoral and disbelieve in god. But I want to keep this argument going so I will say given the three main religions of the world, I have no reason to think that most religions would be moral at all for some of the things they condone. Demonstrate the morality of your religions, and show how this is superior to Atheism.
Debate Round No. 1
ben671176

Pro

"Let's take christianity for example, or judaism (same principle god). Today we regard slavery as immoral. It is considered immoral to own another human and beat them for punishment. But these two common religions' holy book approves of slavery and provides us with rules for ownership of humans.
How do we reject this idea of slavery? Our innate moral sense which is devoid of religion or teachings from a holy book. If we used our religion in this case, we would determine that slavery is moral."
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First off, I am going to state that yes, you did source your claim in religion's supporting slavery. But it didn't really state where in each book. Like examples of text that say it.

" Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free."
- Ephesians 6:5-8

" And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him."
-Ephesians 6:9

Sounds like they are slaves to each other, at least to me.

Yes, Christians did support slavery like in the Triangle trade, but was that the Religion or the people following the Religion? It was the people, also known as the society that supported slavery. Example: In the American Civil War, both sides justified their actions by the Bible.
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"Atheism has no set of morals or any moral book to turn to. Atheism is not believing in a god. You could be moral or immoral and disbelieve in god. But I want to keep this argument going so I will say given the three main religions of the world, I have no reason to think that most religions would be moral at all for some of the things they condone. Demonstrate the morality of your religions, and show how this is superior to Atheism."
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Um, what about Survival of the Fittest? For Atheistic morals!?
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The short version of the 10 commandments

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
1.A. Works for Atheism, since they don't have gods, though it contradicts other religions (Unless every religion are Tall Tales of one story, the true story; add answer to this later)

2. You shall not make idols.
2.A. Even though the true Commandment states that you shouldn't believe in stuff like the elements, I use my answer from one.

3. You shall not take the name of the LORD, your God in vain.
3.A. Even though it states "your," I would have to say that, you could interpret it that you should respect Him even though if you don't believe in him.

4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
4.A. Even if you don't believe in the Sabbath day, you can still respect it

5. Honor your father and your mother.
5.A. A moral value used in most societies, ancient and new.

6. You shall not murder.
6.A. A moral value used in most societies, ancient and new.

7. You shall not commit adultery.
7.A. A little bit more flexible now days, at least now in our culture but: A moral value used in most societies, ancient and new.

8. You shall not steal.
8.A. A moral value used in most societies, ancient and new.

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9.A. A moral value used in most societies, ancient and new.

10. You shall not covet.
10.A. The actual one states you shall not covet your neighbors' belongings so: A moral value used in most societies, ancient but more now days. Example: Kuwait helped by the U.N. from invaders.

I still have more examples.
MagicAintReal

Con

You realize that survival of the fittest is an evolutionary principle not an atheistic one. Atheism says NOTHING about evolution, therefore "survival of the fittest" is not an atheistic moral, if atheistic morals even exist.

You also claim that slavery was not the religion it was the people of the religion, but it is quite clear in Exodus, that the writer of the bible, who you claim is god, loves slavery and has certain rules you need to follow when dealing with slavery. Exodus 20 and 21.

Ok so you listed the 10 commandments. Great, this speaks nothing to whether or not the commandments are moral.
My problem is with commandment 10 which is the only commandment that can be violated with thought. Really think about this. You think it's moral to have a law that you can violate with your thoughts? Maybe you would like a totalitarian government.

Anyway please demonstrate that anything the ten commandments or what your religion says should be regarded as moral or true.
Debate Round No. 2
ben671176

Pro

Exodus 20:21 as far as I can see doesn't say anything about slavery plus you did not comment on Ephesians 6:5-9.

I cannot believe that you just said Atheism says says nothing on evolution, but then again, that is my interpretation on it. You state that Atheism has no moral values, but technically the society that follows it, has moral values.

When you state that I didn't say whether or not the 10 commandments are moral, did you mean if they are right for a society to follow? Or that they are showing the definition of Moral?

Moral Definitions:
: concerning or relating to what is right and wrong in human behavior
: based on what you think is right and good
: considered right and good by most people : agreeing with a standard of right behavior

It fits in that category, but I cannot say whether or not they are right or wrong. Because there is no full definition of what is right or wrong only the opinion of it.

Why do I have to even demonstrate if they are true? Shouldn't you be worrying that since Atheism has no moral values, it is invalid?
MagicAintReal

Con

You wrote "I cannot believe that you just said Atheism says says nothing on evolution, but then again, that is my interpretation on it. You state that Atheism has no moral values, but technically the society that follows it, has moral values."
Ok what values does someone who doesn't collect baseball cards have? Or what about people who don't play water polo? Not doing something doesn't yield a value set. Atheists don't believe in a god...what does that have to do with having morals? And if you're to say that an atheistic society has morals, then it's not their stance on the issue "is there a god?" it's their stance on the issues of "what is moral and what is not?"

You then wrote, "When you state that I didn't say whether or not the 10 commandments are moral, did you mean if they are right for a society to follow? Or that they are showing the definition of Moral?"
Forget my previous question instead, explain to me how you think it is moral for people to be accused of thought crimes per the 10th commandment?

You also said, "Why do I have to even demonstrate if they are true? Shouldn't you be worrying that since Atheism has no moral values, it is invalid?"
I agree the debate topic is morality not truth so you don't need to demonstrate they are true. Atheism has no morals because atheism means not believing in a god. It says nothing about what is moral or not. This doesn't invalidate atheism it merely shows that belief in a god is unrelated to having a moral set. If we were arguing about amoralism instead of atheism then you could say that religions are more moral than amoralism. Again, atheism does not say anything about morals. I know you think all atheists are objective humanists who support evolution, but that is a prejudiced belief. Atheism answers only one question..."god or not?"

Your burden of proof is to demonstrate this morality that you claim to be superior. So far you have misrepresented atheism as a moral set, copied and pasted the ten commandments, and claimed that atheism is invalid.
Why is religion superior morally? I want to know how you arrive at that idea, not what other things say.
Also with Exodus I meant you can read Exodus 20 and all of its parts, and Exodus 21 and all of its parts. The god of the bible is totally cool with slavery and provides rules for owning humans as possessions.
Debate Round No. 3
ben671176

Pro

ben671176 forfeited this round.
MagicAintReal

Con

Please respond my round 3 points. In round 5.
Debate Round No. 4
ben671176

Pro

ben671176 forfeited this round.
MagicAintReal

Con

So, I guess there is no rebuttal to my round 3 points.
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by ben671176 1 year ago
ben671176
@Proving_a_Negative- Saying an entire group of people is moral or immoral because of their ideas isn't really a small thing plus Moral has several definitions and connotations; so it is entirely impossible for that to happen.

@planck- YEah, I understand, I guess I meant creationism more then anything.
Posted by planck 1 year ago
planck
The subject of the debate makes little sense. "Religion" is too broad a term. Do we mean theistic faiths like Christianity or non theistic ones like Buddhism? One can be both an Atheist and a Buddhist or a Taoist.
Posted by Proving_a_Negative 1 year ago
Proving_a_Negative
You should definitely reconsider the "you may assume one small thing as true" rule. What if somebody accepts and says "I assume atheists are more moral." Wouldn't you lose since you have a 2 part resolution and the full burden of proof for making the positive claim?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Chaosism 1 year ago
Chaosism
ben671176MagicAintRealTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit by Pro.