Religious Debate Tournament: Islamic polygamist practices are flawed, ...
Islamic polygamist practices are flawed, and are paradoxical to their opposition to homosexuality.
Round 1 is for acceptance.
I thank my opponent for instigating this debate that I accept. and I allow myself to add definitions to the topic..
Polygamy: a marriage relationship between more than a husband and/or more than a wife, but we will limit the definition here to a marriage between a man and more than a wife simultaneously, which is in definition polygyny.
Homosexuality: a sexual relationship between two people of the same gender.
As Con, I will defend Islamic teachings regarding Polygamy and Homosexuality.
I would like to thank Fruitytree for accepting this debate.
As you can see we’re left with one out of every three males would be unable to marry in this scenario possible under practice of Islamic polygamy. Now this could be corrected with a divorce rate of 35 percent among women, which is a flawed solution. Group marriage, or allowing a woman to have more than one husband would fix it, but is forbidden under Islam.
I thank My opponent for his argument, I will equally post my argument for this round, and will leave rebuttals for the remaining rounds.
1-Marriage in Islam:
Marriage is a sacred contract in Islam that officially unites a man and a woman. It has conditions and pillars, and both spouses have rights and obligations toward one another.
Marriage is also prophetic tradition that was accepted and regulated by the Islamic law.
The benefits of this religious contract are:
- Keep the offspring identity: as any child born from a marriage have a known father andmother.
- Save the honour of the wife: if a woman gets a child outside of marriage, she loses herhonour, but within the marriage, she is in all her honour.
- Ensure enough stability for child rearing.
- Ensure social fertility, while limiting health issues related to random sex relationships.
For more on benefits of male/female Marriage ingeneral:
2-Polygamy in Islam:
-A man has the right to marry up to four women (chasteMuslim or chaste Christian or Jew), if he is physically and financially able totake care for each of them, with the condition of him being equitable betweenhis wives in provision and in the number of nights he spends with each one ofthem.
-Then polygamy is basically a man having a marriagecontract with each wife he has, there is no relationship between the wivesother than their kids being brothers. They even are not supposed to livetogether in one house for obvious reasons.
-Islamic Polygamy also allows extending thebenefits of marriage on more than a female, with reducing the responsibility ofeach woman over her Husband, as she now shares marital duties with anotherwoman.
-The man is still responsible to provide for eachwife he has, and each child they bare him.
-Islam limited the number of wives for one man, tooptimise fertility, and make the marriage the most productive possible.
This is an article about birds, but can be appliedon humans to give an idea that there s an optimal number after which polygamymay not be as beneficial for the male or for the females or for reproduction.
3-Homosexuality and Islam
-Firstly, sex is not allowed outside Islamic marriagefor any Muslim dude. It includes heterosexual and homosexual sex relationships.
-Homosexuality is highly prohibited, and Gay relationshipsentence is death. (sexual relationship that is).
-there is no marriage for homosexual people for thesimple reason that there is no hope their relationship can result in offspring!!and marriage is established in the first place to protect the children identity,protect the woman honour and to make heterosexual intercourse lawful. And childrencan only come from a man and woman relationship!! So basically there is no needfor people of the same gender to call their sinful relationship “Marriage”!!
Here an interesting article about this new social threat:
4- Human Sexual Lust and Islam:
Islam as a Merciful and realistic religion, doesn’tintend to make people’s life miserable, It did not prohibit sex in all itsforms, but has set boundaries not to pass, in order for society to be morallyproductive, but as the human being is also a sexual being and may be in thesituation where he doesn’t find a lawful way to pass his lust, for being pooras an example, and not able to get a wife, He is encouraged to fast in order toweaken his sexual energy , until he gets enough wealth to pretend to a bride.
Abdullah (b. Mas'ud) (Allah bepleased with him) reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to us: 0young men, those among you who can support a wife should marry, for itrestrains eyes (from casting evil glances) and preserves one from immorality;but he who cannot afford It should observe fast for it is a means ofcontrolling the sexual desire. (Sahih Muslim)
Islam has the best set of laws for a moral and optimally productive society.
No I send it back to Pro to start the rebuttals..
Thank you for your argument.
It’s interesting that you would say that one of the advantages to marriage is the health benefit in avoiding random sexual relationships. It implies that men, and women, left without marriage would tend to be promiscuous. This would actually be a good justification for Homosexual marriage. Even if they couldn’t have children of their own they would be able to avoid the pitfalls of promiscuity. Clearly, using the reduced risk of sexually transmitted diseases shows that procreation is not the sole reason for marriage. After all, not all heterosexual couples are capable of having children.
As for bisexual women in an Islamic Polygamist marriage. There are plenty of men who wouldn’t complain if they had two bisexual wives, and would be reluctant to turn them in. Not impossible, but unlikely. It is far easier to find, and kill a homosexual male in Islamic society because they have no real place to hide.
I found the study you cited about polygamy amongst birds to be very interesting. Even though it did state that the smaller harem sizes were more optimized there is a problem with your interpretation. What is the smallest harem a man can have? It depends on how you define harem, but it is either a harem of one, or two. That would be smaller than what Islamic polygamy allows, and make Islamic polygamy look quite large. What the study said was that the advantage of a large harem was proportional to the life span of species. A bird with a lifespan of a few years favored monogamy, and with longevity harem size could increase to gain even more of an advantage. One of these birds, the Penduline tit, only has a lifespan of 6.7 years. It would be safe to say that a human lifespan of 75 years could support much larger harems then you’d see in birds. Assuming your source is correct in their study.
However, the issue with practicing polygamy is that it will always leave a significant portion of males unable to find a wife. This is irrelevant to their capacity to support a wife. I have no doubt Islamic countries are capable of supporting a healthy middle class. I see no reason 99% of Islamic men wouldn’t be able to support at least one wife. Only if you objectify women to the point where they are bought and sold like cattle would a man not be able to afford a wife.
One consequence of practicing polygamy, in this way, is that social evolution has to address the excess population of men. Society can only support so much of the social drama caused by unmarried men in their pursuit for a wife they can never find. Eventually these men would commit far more serious crimes. For example, in India the male to female ratio is tilted because of infanticide, but the result is the same, men unable to function in society. The ratio there is nearly 120 to 100, men to women, and is cited as one of the primary factors for the high levels rate of rape. That’s clearly because the heterosexual population is imbalanced. I have no doubt if the imbalance persists that over time more of their male population would be homosexual.
As much as Islam might want to be merciful it is making some people miserable with its practices.
Thank you Pro.
Does Islamic Polygamy really threaten genders balance?
In contrast with your above example about KSA population, please take a look on married
women statistics in KSA for the year of 2007:
As you can see there is absolutely no age where all the women or girls are married. Moreover,
Please take note that it is common that men who practice polygamy in KSA, would take the
The average age for first marriage for women has increased in all Muslim countries; please
Please to compare it with the statistics for 2004:
It is clear that the tendencies have changed, and there is now a new problem arising that
You can also check to see the statistics for male single in KSA as of 2007:
So far no issues, males are not suffering from lack of females, but assuming your
Optimal Harem Size for both male and females:
There is no study that I found for Humans that would indicate the optimal harem size.
But there is something that I remember we’ve seen in High school or earlier, that one Male sex cell
gives 4 different spermatozoids when one female sex cell would give only one
egg, as shown in the following figure:
Therefore limiting the Polygamy to 4 wives would be the optimal limitation, especially if
you compare with the ancient tribes practices who would have large harems that
would cause damage to the females involved in such a marriages.
Is female Bisexuality supported By Islamic Polygamy?
Not that it was reported that 'Abd al-Rahman, the son of Abu Sa'id al-Khudri,
So even, the premises that can lead to homosexuality are forbidden.
And the marriage contracts in polygamy are between the man and each wife,
-The Gay punishment was made tougher because there is a sort of intercourse
-India is not a Muslim country, and the imbalance isn’t due to polygamy, so
So basically the problem you are pointing out is not real, males in Muslim
I would like to thank the Con for her response.
When you reduce populations to a percentage it become difficult to do a comparison that all readers will understand. As an example, if I say that, in a given population, 50% of the women are married and 50% of the men are married people naturally assume that the populations are equal. However, you could easily have a population of 100 women and 10 men with only half of each being married if each married man had 10 wives. This is why I cited the actual ratio for Saudi Arabia in Round 2 which has been over 120 men per 100 women since 1985, and the closest ratio was 101 in 1960. Even Iran has had a slight, but consistent, over population of men compared to women, and that’s even with the Iran-Iraq war in the 80’s reducing their male population a bit.
You should never expect to see a 100% of the male or female population married regardless of the population balance. As long as you have a consistent birth rate, and a portion of individual putting marriage off you’ll never see it hit 100%. That doesn’t mean that there is plenty of available women for marriage. A simple comparison of population size reveals if there is a sufficient number of men or women.
Even though most people associate India with Hindus there is a significant portion of the population that is Muslim. Even though polygamy is outlawed in India under The Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) Application Act of 1937 polygamy is still legal for Muslims in India. Even with the clear gender imbalance Muslims insist on preserving polygamy in India.
Increasing the practice of polygamy would only make the problem I’ve described worse not better. The reason why, in spite of an overpopulation of men, Islamic countries haven't reported an issue with men being unable to find wives is that a significant portion of the population is homosexual. They have no need to complain because there are plenty of men to choose from. The prospect of a monogamous male having a relationship with another man poses no risk or danger to Islamic polygamist. In fact, having a sibling who is homosexual could be an advantage. Since they’d be unlikely to have children of their own, and in the event of an unexpected demise they could take over your responsibilities.
I will leave Cons argument regarding sperm count and optimal number of wives mostly unchallenged. It’s a red herring, and irrelevant. I could easily twist that to say that each woman should have four husbands.
I have a family emergency that I need to address this weekend. I don’t have the time I’d like to address bisexual women as clearly as I would like. I will leave it up to the rebuttal if it’s needed, and to the voters to decide if a man would be like or unlikely to “report” two bisexual wives. I also apologize for any grammar mistakes since I haven’t had time to proof this as much as I would have liked.
Thank you again Medv.
As you complain about the usage of percentage, I get you the true
Table that I got from here:
Islamic year 1428 being equivalent to 2007 CE.
The previous percentage of male Saudi singles can also be compared to
So as a male, whether you are monogamous or polygamous, you’ll have a
About India, you can check this link to see how Muslim population in
Please to keep in mind that usually females are ready for marriage
Also Muslim males do marry Christian chaste women as well as Jews, which
increases possibilities for Muslim communities.
WHY POLYGAMY IS UNDER CONTROL IN MUSLIM LANDS?
Polygamy is nothing but a man tied with more than one marriage contract. And who says
-In Islam a woman can choose to accept or refuse a marriage proposal and nobody can force
-In Islam again a woman can choose to end the marriage relationship if her rights are not
This allows women to make pressure on men, so a wise man wouldn’t go to the polygamy
Now you try to show that polygamy can eventually hide lesbianism or female bisexuality!
I would like to thank Fruitytree, and would ask that voters consider giving her conduct points. She was respectful in regards to my family emergency, and I appreciate that.
Thank you Medv.
You have pointed out the only issue that can be agravated by polygamy, that is gender ratio imbalance.
We have seen the example of KSA where the Female/Male ratio is initially not balanced, and where polygamy is still practiced with full support of islamic law, but still the imbalace isn't agravated by polygamy, for the following reasons:
-KSA Polygamists usually take at least one of the wives from other countries.
- rarely do you see a polygamist having 4 wives.
-Women have the choice to stay or leave.
-Men usually marry later then women do, which creates a sort of delay and corrects ratios virtually.
It is also important to note that there have never been any imbalace issue due to Islamic polygamy, but if it was to happen in the future, it can be self corrected by islam itself, that allows the ruller to rule whatever can benefit the Muslim nation or avoid the harm on them. implying allowing homosexuality isn't required to solve such an issue.
For all these reasons, Islamic rullings regarding Polygamy and Homosexuality are coherent and consistent.
Note: here the link about Indis statistics that I missed to post on round 4:
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