The Instigator
Deadlykris
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
delta38
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Remaining with the Empire is in Skyrim's best interests. (TES V)

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/28/2013 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,287 times Debate No: 29645
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (5)
Votes (0)

 

Deadlykris

Con

Round 1: resolution, acceptance, definitions, rules, and what-not. Pro may begin arguments at this time, or wait until Round 2.
Rounds 2 and 3: Arguments and rebuttals.
Round 4: Closing arguments and final rebuttals.
Voting: RFD not required, but requested.

Resolution: That Skyrim's continuing status as a province of the Cyrodiilic Empire, Mede Dynasty, is of a net positive effect on the province of Skyrim, and thus severing this tie is not in Skyrim's best interests; and that Ulfric Stormcloak's goals are at odds with the safety of the province.

I will be taking the Con (Stormcloak) position; accepting this debate means you will take the Pro (Imperial) position.

Definitions: Any dispute over the definition of a game-specific term will be settled using either the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages [1] or the Imperial Library [2]; other wikis may be acceptable if they are not hosted by Wikia, and are related to Skyrim specifically or the Elder Scrolls series generally. For non-game-specific terms, the common, context-appropriate definition should be inferred.

Sources: The preferred sources are the UESP [1] and Imperial Library [2]; other wikis may be acceptable if they are not hosted by Wikia, and are related to Skyrim specifically or the Elder Scrolls series generally.

The setting of the subject of this debate is the Province of Skyrim, continent of Tamriel, plane(t) of Nirn, in the year 201 of the 4th Era as time is kept by that province (4E201 for short). The events of the DLCs "Dawnguard" and "Dragonborn" shall not be considered. The events of the other games and the two books in the Elder Scrolls universe may be considered, if relevant.

This debate should be accepted in a light hearted manner; I expect a serious debate, though not a hostile one. Humor is allowed and even encouraged. General Tullius wears a red nightie and dances in the mirror when no one is looking.

[1] http://www.uesp.net...
[2] http://imperial-library.info...
delta38

Pro

I accept and I am pleased to find a fellow gamer who is willing to be lore-friendly. To define terms I would like to define Empire as: the fourth age empire such as in skyrim.
Aldermi dominion: Elven council that governs basically everything after the Great War.
Skyrim: country as well as people creatures etc.
Now I may not be as big of an expert but I know a bit. The empire is all but oppressive to the Nords. The Empire is a huge majority Nords. Tiber Septim, was the founder of the empire, was a Nord. The empire doesn't like the Aldermi dominion either. Ulfric Stormcloak was the one who started this uprising and it is only delaying the empire in gathering troops to push back the Aldermi dominion. Therefore the empire wants to aid Skyrim not harm it.
Debate Round No. 1
Deadlykris

Con

Your definitions are acceptable. Thank you for accepting this debate. I also neglected to define BOP, so let's just say it's shared.

Let me address the points in your opening arguments:
1) "The empire is all but oppressive to the Nords."
I take this to mean that the Empire is not oppressive to the Nords. I disagree. A hallmark of Nord religious belief is in the worship of Talos, the ancient Second Era hero and first Emperor of the Septim dynasty who ascended to godhood, joining the Eight to make Nine. At the demand of the Aldmeri Dominion, the Empire has outlawed worship of Talos, thus infringing on the religious liberties of the Nords and any other citizens of the Empire who worship Talos. Talos also was known as Tiber Septim for part of his life; but he was born Talos of Atmora. [1]

2) "The empire doesn't like the Aldermi dominion either. Ulfric Stormcloak was the one who started this uprising and it is only delaying the empire in gathering troops to push back the Aldermi dominion."
Whether or not the Empire "likes" the Aldmeri Dominion is irrelevant. If the strength of the Dominion is as great as they claim, then no amount of gathering forces is sufficient. But the Dominion, and their ruling council, the Thalmor, have always overstated their strength, all the way back to their inception at the end of the Oblivion crisis.[2] Furthermore, resistance to the Dominion in Hammerfell continued until 4E180, when the Redguards fought them to a stalemate; one of the conditions of the treaty was the complete withdrawal of Dominion forces from Hammerfell.[3] Hammerfell was ejected from the Empire following the signing of the White Gold Concordat, due to their refusal to accept the terms of the concordat.[4]
Knowing this, one could easily conclude that the Nords of Skyrim would have fared similarly had High King Torygg had the same strength of character as the leaders of Hammerfell.

3) "Therefore the empire wants to aid Skyrim not harm it."
Yes, they do want to aid it. However, they want to aid Skyrim on their own terms, and they want Skyrim's aid as well, to the ultimate detriment to Skyrim. What happens to the Empire if Skyrim secedes? Elsweyr belongs to the Dominion, and the empire lost Morrowind's might, and rule over Black Marsh, in the wake of the Red Year, and High Rock would become completely cut off from Cyrodiil; travelers would need to travel by sea through waters controlled by Hammerfell and/or the Dominion (it's unclear who controls those waters) or by Skyrim, or by land through Hammerfell or Skyrim.[6] Under these conditions, Cyrodiil might as well be considered to be standing alone, so it's no surprise that they are fighting fiercely to retain Skyrim.

[1] Tiber Septim http://www.uesp.net...
[2] Rising Threat, Volume II by Lathenil of Sunhold http://www.uesp.net...
[3] Second Treaty of Stros M'kai http://www.uesp.net...
[4] White Gold Concordat http://www.uesp.net...
[5] The Great War by Legate Justianus Quintius http://www.uesp.net...
[6] Tamriel map http://www.uesp.net...
delta38

Pro

Skyrim still controls High Rock and Hammerfell and with Skyrim they can defeat the Aldermi dominion and legalize the worship of Talos. The Aldermi dominion is relevant because without the Empire Skyrim is hopeless. Also morally the empire is better. They handled the entire empire well during the Oblivion crisis. They sacrificed their emperors to save Everyone, including Skyrim. The Empire has had a fairly good record of efficiently managing the world, back when it used to rule all of it. They were quite liberal in terms of letting their conquered provinces maintain their ways of life, and only required following Imperial law, and tribute of blood and coin to the Emperor. The Stormcloak Rebellion is fledgling, and appears to have pretty poor governance. Ulfric is racially intolerant and unconcerned with trivial internal issues. Yeah, Tullius is kind of a dweeb. But he's just a general, he's not going to rule anything. I imagine that, in the game world, once Ulfric was defeated, the Empire would take immediate and dramatic steps toward reinstating loyal jarls, and most importantly, a new high king. Possibly the queen, but maybe not. Tullius is a non-factor for the aftermath. Ulfric Stormcloak is exceedingly power-hungry. This will not be good for Skyrim.
Debate Round No. 2
Deadlykris

Con

Skyrim still controls High Rock and Hammerfell and with Skyrim they can defeat the Aldermi dominion and legalize the worship of Talos."
I'm not sure what you mean here, so I'll rebut this based on two different assumptions; that you meant it as written first (1), and as if you had written "The Empire" at the beginning of the first sentence, instead of "Skyrim"(2).

(1): Skyrim never controlled either province, so this point is meaningless. Hammerfell held back the Dominion and forced them to surrender on more even terms five years after the White Gold Concordat (WGC). Bear in mind that in those five years, the Dominion had the luxury of focusing solely on Hammerfell, and they could not take the province.

(2): Hammerfell is no longer part of the Empire; the Redguards broke away when they refused to bow to the terms of the WGC. High Rock remains loyal to the Empire, but a secession by Skyrim would leave Cyrodiil isolated from High Rock. I've been told Orsinium remains neutral, but that should be considered hearsay at this point.

"The Aldermi dominion is relevant because without the Empire Skyrim is hopeless."
I never claimed the Dominion was irrelevant; though the threat they pose is less than they would have you believe. What I said was that the empire's OPINION of the Dominion is irrelevant, because Skyrim is in a more stable position if they sever ties with the Empire.

"Also morally the empire is better."
I don't see why this is true nor relevant.

"They handled the entire empire well during the Oblivion crisis."
The Oblivion Crisis was handled by the Septim Dynasty. That dynasty ended when Martin sacrificed himself and sent Dagon packing. The Mede Dynasty didn't start until 4E17, 7 years after Potentate Ocato was assassinated, when Titus Mede captured the Imperial City.[1] By that time, the Oblivion Crisis was effectively ancient history. Praising the current Empire for their handling of the Oblivion Crisis is akin to praising modern Great Britain for its handling of the War of 1812.

"The Empire has had a fairly good record of efficiently managing the world, back when it used to rule all of it. They were quite liberal in terms of letting their conquered provinces maintain their ways of life, and only required following Imperial law, and tribute of blood and coin to the Emperor."
The Cyrodiilic empire never ruled the entire world of Nirn. In fact, they never got a lasting foothold on any continent aside from Tamriel, though not for lack of trying. And again, let me point out to you that this was the Septim Dynasty, not the Mede Dynasty. The Mede Dynasty has a much worse track record for ruling Tamriel, and in fact has never ruled the entirety of it, Black Marsh having seceded during the rule of Potentate Ocato.

"The Stormcloak Rebellion is fledgling, and appears to have pretty poor governance."
That's a matter of opinion.

"Ulfric is racially intolerant and unconcerned with trivial internal issues."
I'll grant that Ulfric could be more sensitive to the needs of non-Nord people; but he's pretty occupied with the needs of the Nords, so it's unsurprising that the needs of the other races are allowed to slide. However, if he were truly racially intolerant, then he wouldn't accept anyone into the ranks of his army that wasn't a Nord; yet he will accept anyone to fight for Skyrim's freedom, because he understands that others call Skyrim home, too.

"Yeah, Tullius is kind of a dweeb. But he's just a general, he's not going to rule anything."
My remarks about Tullius were not intended to be taken seriously. However, it doesn't follow that he's not going to rule anything; winning the war would put him in a position to be granted a county in Cyrodiil or the equivalent in High Rock, perhaps. A grateful Emperor would find a way to reward him handsomely.

"I imagine that, in the game world, once Ulfric was defeated, the Empire would take immediate and dramatic steps toward reinstating loyal jarls, and most importantly, a new high king. Possibly the queen, but maybe not."
Imagination is not required, except on the last point. The quest lines for each faction do result in new Jarls being installed in conquered cities. The natural end result if the Empire wins is these milk-drinkers emphatically voting in whatever High King or High Queen Tullius tells them to. The greatest likelihood is that it would be Elisif the Fair, for the convenience of the Empire - they're already established with quarters in Solitude, and Haafingar Hold has a road leading right into High Rock, another Imperial province, so they're unlikely to want to relocate even if Jarl Maven Black-Briar is elected High Queen. So they'll assign that role to Elisif, and the bought Jarls will agree.

"Tullius is a non-factor for the aftermath. Ulfric Stormcloak is exceedingly power-hungry."
I disagree with the characterization of Ulfric as "power-hungry" - his motives have been purely for the advancement of the Nord people. He did not rule Markarth when he seized it from the Forsworn Reachmen; he returned it to its rightful Nord Jarl. He was the conqueror, and he could have claimed the right to rule The Reach while his father still ruled Eastmarch Hold. And had he had any desire beyond that of the greatest benefit to the Nord people, he would have done so; Markarth is a very rich city and The Reach is a very rich hold - rich in silver.

"This will not be good for Skyrim."
As I said above, the Empire has more to lose than Skyrim. To expand on that, it's very likely that High Rock would secede and join whatever alliance was formed between Skyrim and Hammerfell; those two provinces surround High Rock on the land side, which has the effect of isolating High Rock from both Cyrodiil and the Dominion. With their ally cut off and their main enemy cut off from them by other enemies (at least in name), they would be foolish not to join with the Hammerfell-Skyrim alliance and add their prodigious magic talents to the impressive martial prowess of the Nords and Redguards.

[1] http://www.uesp.net...
delta38

Pro

delta38 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Deadlykris

Con

All arguments extended.
delta38

Pro

delta38 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Deadlykris 4 years ago
Deadlykris
And so the cause of the Stormcloaks is upheld.
Posted by Deadlykris 4 years ago
Deadlykris
Spellcheck wanted to change the name "Justianus" to "just anus"
Posted by OhioGary 4 years ago
OhioGary
Oh, I see. I'll have to ask my wife if she plays this.
Posted by Deadlykris 4 years ago
Deadlykris
In a way, yes; but not specifically DD. It's about a series of games called The Elder Scrolls, which recently had two books added to the lore. There are five numbered games (Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim, respectively) as well as two books and several other games that aren't numbered. The latest game, Skyrim, was released on November 11, 2011.
Posted by OhioGary 4 years ago
OhioGary
Is this like Dungeons & Dragons or something?
No votes have been placed for this debate.