The Instigator
dbigs
Con (against)
Losing
10 Points
The Contender
Zetsubou
Pro (for)
Winning
15 Points

Resolved: Affirmative Action to Promote Equal Opportunity in the United States is Justified.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/6/2010 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,108 times Debate No: 11326
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (4)

 

dbigs

Con

I am presenting the negative case in a more casual debate style. There is no real format, but am open to debate any style aff case. My argument is as follows:

Since I believe that affirmative action is extremely counterintuitive to the entire cause of the black race, I argue that affirmative action policies are not the best means for college admission.
There are three important points to reveal about affirmative action: is contradictory to equality, we can do well by ourselves, and lastly, it is racist.

1. Affirmative Action is contradictory to equality
For hundreds of years, African Americans have been fighting for equality. Dr. Martin Luther King once said, "I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal.'" This did not only apply to black people. It referred to all people. As soon as we have received some assemblance of equality via desegregation, via anti-slavery, and via the first black president of the United States, as soon as we took most of the upper hand away from whites, now we want the upper hand? Now we want to get ahead of the white race? This is not equality; in fact, it is inequality in favor of the black race. We always are quick to celebrate the success of Dr. King's dream. However that celebration is only in vain, as we continue to violate his dream in some ways, some ways as affirmative action. Let us live out the entirety of his dream, and advocate equality for all, including white people.

2. We can do well all by ourselves
We all know it. We have all seen the footage. Black people gave up precious blood, sweat, and tears so that their descendants, us, can live a better life. They fought and won by themselves, without any help. Why do we need help now? Why do we need to have spots saved? Getting into college because you are black doesn't always mean you were the best fit for that college. It only means that you are just a number, filler, so the school can't get sued. There is no sense of accomplishment with affirmative action. Furthermore, why are we now seeking the easy way out, instead of trying our hardest and fighting to win? Is the hard work that the people before us did all for nothing? The fight is not over and we don't need help. Oprah Winfrey once said, "Excellence is best deterrent to racism or sexism." Therefore, there is no need for any of us to get into college because we are black, only because we are excellent beyond compare. If we are excellent, we won't even need affirmative action, because we would get in based on our successes. Mediocrity is no longer good enough to get in, only excellence will be.

3. IT IS RACIST!
The bottom line is, however anyone may believe, affirmative action is racist. Ernest Pasour furthers.
Pasour, Ernest. Affirmative Action: A Counter-Productive Policy. http://www.theadvocates.org...
Affirmative action also causes reverse discrimination. Discrimination against white males is just as bad as discrimination against minorities. Some people say that affirmative action is justified as a way of making up for past discrimination. Although discrimination still exists in the U.S., as it does in the rest of the world, most blacks entering the job market today were born after the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and have suffered little or no prejudice in terms of salary. When this Civil Rights Act was passed, its spirit was not one of reverse discrimination but of getting employers to consider applicants objectively in filling jobs within their companies. Hubert Humphrey, a major sponsor of the Act, swore that he would eat the bill if it were ever used for discrimination of any sort. The past cannot be changed and we should stop compensating people who were never hurt at the expense of people who have done them no harm.

We need to reevaluate the role of affirmative action. It is inherently racist, but because black people are finally on the benefitting end of the spectrum, we don't want to see it as a problem. But I am here to tell you today it is a problem. If we truly want equality and want to see an end to racism and discrimination, we need not be hypocrites and support it only when it benefits us. We need to advocate it for everyone, white, Hispanic, Asian, and black.
Zetsubou

Pro

Intro - Thank you, dbigs for allowing me to change the terms of the Debate, I hope we will have a full and concise debate over the next 2 weeks. I would also like to note that you keep this debate impersonal, please refrain from words like --> "I", "We" ect.

Affirmative Action is a system for equality. It's very nature is to balance out racial inequality, you claim it's the opposite.

>>Definitions<< [ http://www.merriam-webster.com...]
Affirmative Action - An active effort to improve the employment or educational opportunities of members of minority groups or women.
Equality - the quality or state of being equal (Equal - Of the same)
Race - a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock.

>>Rebuttals<<
1. Equality is an impossible concept to achieve. We can only make it easier to get. I will assume you agree with the statement that: Socially, there is currently no full Equality of race. So, Affirmative action is a system to allow equality to be stable and exist. If you have a nature where there is inequality is on one side of a system you balance it; examples:

The Poor – Welfare (What about the rich!)
The Dying Poor(Foreign) – Charities (What about the dying rich! or Our Poor Nationals!)
Minorities – Affirmative action (What about the Majorities)

2. "We can do well all by ourselves" - Evidence Goes against this:

Note: The evidence/Citation is true until proven false with a negating Source of equal or greater source credibility or if it is proved to be bias.

>>The Guardian (Unisourced UK Government figures) -www.guardian.co.uk/education/2001/aug/07/highereducation.uk4 -
For 2000 (Indians five or more GCSE at grades A to C)
62% of Indians
30% of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis
37% of blacks

>>USA – Public schools
[ Public Agenda Cencus 2006][ http://www.msnbc.msn.com...]
3.4% margin of error. Max meaning "X%" Possibly more.

Respect-Common Bad Language
Black - Min 52% ----- Max 23%
Hispanic –Min 35% ----- Max 28%
White - Min 28% ----- Max 35%

"Cutting Class"
Black - Min 37% ----- Max 22%
Hispanic –Min 29% ----- Max 26%
White – Min 14% ----- Max 26%

Keeping Order/Disruption by race
Black - Min 30% ----- Max 27%
Hispanic –Min 18% ----- Max 29%
White - Min 14%----- Max 26%

Offences against School Rules
Black - Min 33%----- Max 0%
Hispanic –Min 26%----- Max 0%
White - Min 19%----- Max 0%

>>Or if you're still in School look around you Statistic suggest your class is much like this.

3. Racist in the name of the Minority?

As I said in "1." is in the balance to equality. In the world if something is unfair (inequality) and you can't change it you help in it favor. The reason for this is that we life in a world of Social "Justice", an ideal contrary to Social Darwinism, people help in the name of their race; The common good of all humans rather than primarily on one's self. This rule of our Society is why we have to help the lower man.

>>>General
If are races are Failing (2.) >> You support them (1.) >> They do better.

Affirmative Action creates racial support to an equal level in jobs. Minorities with or without Affirmative Action will never get an advantage over the Majority regardless.
Debate Round No. 1
dbigs

Con

dbigs forfeited this round.
Zetsubou

Pro

Extend all arguments.
Debate Round No. 2
dbigs

Con

dbigs forfeited this round.
Zetsubou

Pro

No argument.

Vote Pro.
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by TheSkeptic 6 years ago
TheSkeptic
Obvious vote for PRO - con forfeited last two rounds.
Posted by Zetsubou 6 years ago
Zetsubou
For Christ Sake!
Posted by RoyLatham 6 years ago
RoyLatham
Zetsubou, You addressed the point by affirming Con's argument, saying "So, Affirmative action is a system to allow equality to be stable and exist." That doesn't argue against it being racism, it says the ends justifies the means. An end-justifies-the-means argument needs solid evidence that it works. You presented no evidence that it worked, and in fact claimed that it did not work. Presenting even weak evidence would have aided your case substantially, since Con forfeited and would not have countered.
Posted by Zetsubou 6 years ago
Zetsubou
Latham, I did address his argument: "It's reverse racism" His round 1 and 3.

It's my first argument.
Posted by Zetsubou 6 years ago
Zetsubou
Wpdebate is an epic troll, justify?
Posted by RoyLatham 6 years ago
RoyLatham
Had Pro made a case he would have won due to Con's default. However, Pro only provided evidence that equality had not been achieved, and did not address Con's opening arguments. Therefore, Con's opening arguments were left unrefuted.

In California, the state university was adding 200 points to the SAT scores of anyone who had an Hispanic surname. That, and other preferential treatment, was ended by a ballot initiative that quoted a definition of "equality" from the NAACP charter that was thereby enacted into law. The effect of ending affirmative action was to increase the number of Orientals admitted to the state schools, with whites declining along with everybody else. So I guess that proves whites need affirmative action.
Posted by Zetsubou 6 years ago
Zetsubou
Arguments 1 & 3 were essentially the same.
Posted by Zetsubou 6 years ago
Zetsubou
The Bad Language thing may be hard to understand.

Max - The Definite, strong amount "x".
Min - Light, possible disregard for "x". (But Notible)
Posted by Zetsubou 6 years ago
Zetsubou
Oprah is an open fool

MLK I'm not saying anything.
Posted by Zetsubou 6 years ago
Zetsubou
I will take the debate if you change the debate turns to 3 rounds. Nothing good will come from a 5 round debate.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by TheSkeptic 6 years ago
TheSkeptic
dbigsZetsubouTied
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Vote Placed by AbandonAngel89 6 years ago
AbandonAngel89
dbigsZetsubouTied
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Vote Placed by RoyLatham 6 years ago
RoyLatham
dbigsZetsubouTied
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Vote Placed by wpdebate2 6 years ago
wpdebate2
dbigsZetsubouTied
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