Resolved: An omnipotent and andomniscient god cannot logically exist.
Resolved: An omnipotent and and omniscient god cannot logically exist.
Dictionary definition of Omnipotent:
1. almighty or infinite in power, as God.
2. having very great or unlimited authority or power.
The apologists often define omnipotence as the maximum power logically possible (i.e. god does not have the power to create a square circle, since a square circle is not logical).
Dictionary definition of Omniscience:
1. having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.
"The omnipotence and omniscience paradox can be summed up as 'Does God know what he's going to do tomorrow? If so, could he do something else?' If God knows what will happen, and does something else, he's not omniscient. If he knows and can't change it, he's not omnipotent."
It's logically impossible for god to know what he's going to do in the future (omniscient) and have the power to change it (omnipotent); therefore, an omnipotent and omnisciet god cannot logically exist.
I thank my opponent for starting this debate, and I will be holding us to the use of the definition for omnipotence “maximum power logical” which does not include the ability to create square circles, rocks so big he move them, ect…
Time is not Static
Space is generally agreed to not be a static thing, its always expanding or even shrinking they say these days. Because Time is also considered to be a part of space (space-time continuum) its not rational to think of Time is static terms either.
Knowing about a Time in Flux
Let us say God knows it’s going to rain tomorrow. Because of his power he can control weather or not it will rain, but as of right now its going to rain. But the flow of events in the timeline being something that is not static and subject to change, means God could very well change that fact that it will rain tomorrow. It does not change the fact that he knew it was going to rain even though he ensured with his power that it wouldn’t after I prayed ‘rain rain go away so I can cut the hay today’ to him.
So really when you think about it this highlights the fact that he knows everything, it doesn’t bring it into question. I say this because it means while we only can know that it did not rain today, God is able to know with certainty about the rain that never happened….but could have. God does not only know about the ‘what is’s but he knows about the ‘what if’s in detail.
1) The logic impossibility relies on the assumption that time is static.
2) We generally take Time and Space to be in Flux
I await my opponent’s response
Opponent S1: "But the flow of events in the timeline being something that is not static and subject to change, means God could very well change that fact that it will rain tomorrow. It does not change the fact that he knew it was going to rain even though he ensured with his power that it wouldn’t after I prayed ‘rain rain go away so I can cut the hay today’ to him."
Time has to be Static
The only problem the link presented was it was a problem because in “commoving time” the stop watch would appear to be ticking faster as the universe expands. But this is not a problem because to our perception and the perception of our watches which exist within….well reality as we know it in time at its current ….ticking speed I guess, we would not notice the change in the ticking of any clock unless we watched it from outside of the Universe. Let me explain, consider you are watching Kid Flash speed read through a Library every single book. But he is reading, at a faster speed of time, cause well he’s special like that. To Him He can see every book move and all the food he has left lying around in his study, he can see himself and he can see you standing there like a statue. You cant see him though. He’s moving so fast because he runs on a different rate of time that even light stuck going at your rate of time does not show you him or the food and books he cleaned up and put back on the shelf faster than your time could register them. So in short even if the clock would tick faster as space expands you would perceive it faster, like when you’re staring at a fan and your eyes try following the fan blades.
Free will and Omni paradox.
I’ve heard this argument and it can lead to some pretty absurd statements. For example lets say I tell you to jump off a roof and flap your wings you will fly. You say you don’t believe and are not going to do it. I knew you would say that of course cause there’s not way your that gullible and stupid. Does this show because I had the foreknowledge of what your choice would be that had control over it the whole time, that I made your decision for you? Of course not, my knowledge over your actions does not affect the fact that you independently make them apart from me.
God would have to fulfill all ‘what if’s’ to maintain Omnipotence
Why would he? In order to logically have power it has to be used? That is absurd and if you take a minute to consider what that means on a non-omni level of power you would see this if you just use common sense. For example is it safe to say that Chuck Norris can kick my butt? Pretty safe I think we would agree, however he is not kicking my but (obviously I would not be able to type if he did) and he is not roundhouse kicking your right now is he? Has he ever done so. The man is a wealthy celebrity and has no need of turning his attention to your or I and has no causes that would make him show off his fighting prowess by attacking us. So he is not, but clearly you cant say that he CANT kick our butts if you know push came to shove for Mr. Norris.
Thing is with an Omnipotent God by definition ‘push’ cannot possibly come to shove. And even if he did have too there is still know problem. There’s no logical reason to say that god has not fulfilled all ‘what-ifs’ and created Hilbert’s Hotel in the form of infinite realities.
There are two points to the link I provided:
We haven’t discussed this, but I would presume that god would be ticking in true time, so to him time would be truly constant.
Being able to make correct predictions is different from knowing the actual outcome. In your example, you made a correct prediction but you never really knew with 100% certainty that I would not jump. If I was crazy and I jumped, your prediction would have been wrong. Your prediction had a degree of uncertainty, while god’s knowledge would have no uncertainty which is why we label it as omniscience. We wouldn’t label anybody omniscient simply because they can make correct predictions with a high degree of certainty.
I think it makes sense to also understand the term free will:
“’Free Will’ is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives.”
If an omniscient being created another being that has free will, then the being would have to have various alternatives to choose from. However, given that the omniscient being knows what the actual outcome happens to be, it makes those alternatives nothing more than an illusion.
Having Power vs Exercising Power
Note that the colloquial definition of power is somewhat weak and inconclusive: it doesn’t address ability or opportunity. So I would suggest a stronger definition, provided by the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
“Power should be distinguished from ability. Power is ability plus opportunity: a being which has maximal ability but which is prevented by circumstances from exercising those abilities would not be omnipotent. Nothing could prevent an omnipotent agent from exercising its powers, if it were to endeavor to do so.” 
So having the power also implies that the being has the opportunity and the ability to exercise it, by definition! Having omniscience eliminates the opportunity to exercise the power: if I know what I will do in every moment in the future, then where is my opportunity to do something else?
Omnipotence is defined as the maximum power logically possible and based on the definition in SEP: power is the ability plus the opportunity. An omniscient being would know, not merely predict with a high degree of certainty, what it would do every moment in the future, thus eliminating the opportunity to exercise its power. If the opportunity is eliminated, then the power is also eliminated. This is why a being that is both omniscient and omnipotent is a paradox, therefore such a being cannot logically exist.
A: you did not actual address my specific charge. It was not about questioning if God had to have opportunity in order to say he has power, it was he has to flat out use the power to say he has power. You suggested God ‘had’ to do something (create all versions of Schrodinger cat) to have power. He does not. Just because he can do it by opportunity and ability does not mean he has too. I have the ability and opportunity to forfeit this debate but I obviously have not does that mean that I never could have? Of course not.
B: You did not address my point that God may in fact already made all the what-ifs so the voters should consider this point dropped. Just because you do not exist in the universe where I am dating Britt Nicole does not mean that universe does not exist. You can’t logically say god did not make it apart and separate from our own reality and so you can’t logically hold against god what you logically cannot say if he did or did not do it.
Exercise in Character over Power
Existence of Free Will does not mean God ‘lacks opportunity’ to make us do his will as Gods restraint in power reflects his character not his opportunity.
So it’s just a matter of degree of certainty? Fine then let’s just say I do know 100% does that now mean that it was really I who made your choice for you? No it’s not the degree of certainty that keeps us from labeling me Omnipotent when I make a prediction on your choices. It’s the common sense that’s there’s a disconnect between my good understanding of people and situations from the people and the situations themselves.
Choices are an illusion if God knows…
Let’s consider a choice without Gods foreknowledge in the equation for a moment. I have to pick between 2 jobs. Job A is closer than B and so I pick it. Add Foreknowledge back to the equation; is my choice any less my own? No because all the same causes are still in place
You and your link have made a backwards conclusions. True Time would be what changes and our perception of it would remain the same so since we are constrained by time. To keep the speed equation the same True Time has to change with True Space to keep the ratio the same or our ability to calculate speed falls apart.
Though I have refuted your every argument; lets say they were not quite good enough and we give more weight to every point you have tried to make. If we take your case at its face value at the end of the day all you have done is made a slightly more elaborate ‘stone so big…’ argument which is ruled out by your own round one definition. Omnipotence thus been proven to logically have to mean a more Calvinistic view of God but not ‘no such god can logically exist’.
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