The Instigator
wpfairbanks
Pro (for)
Winning
28 Points
The Contender
SniperJake94
Con (against)
Losing
6 Points

Resolved: Estate Tax is neccesary to maintaining a Natural Aristocracy in the United States

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
wpfairbanks
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/21/2009 Category: Society
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,920 times Debate No: 7510
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (15)
Votes (5)

 

wpfairbanks

Pro

Resolved: Estate Tax is neccesary to maintaining a Natural Aristocracy in the United States

"For I agree with you that there is a natural aristocracy among men. The grounds of this are virtue and talents. Formerly bodily powers gave place among the aristoi. But since the invention of gunpowder has armed the weak as well as the strong with missile death, bodily strength, like beauty, good humor, politeness and other accomplishments, has become but an auxiliary ground of distinction. There is also an artificial aristocracy founded on wealth and birth, without either virtue or talents; for with these it would belong to the first class. The natural aristocracy I consider as the most precious gift of nature for the instruction, the trusts, and government of society. And indeed it would have been inconsistent in creation to have formed man for the social state, and not to have provided virtue and wisdom enough to manage the concerns of the society. May we not even say that that form of government is the best which provides the most effectually for a pure selection of these natural aristoi into the offices of government? The artificial aristocracy is a mischievous ingredient in government, and provision should be made to prevent it's ascendancy."
-Thomas Jefferson

This Jeffersonian concept will stand as the basis for my resolution
SniperJake94

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for choosing the resolution.

I negate: Resolved: Estate Tax is neccesary to maintaining a Natural Aristocracy in the United States.

First my opponent has not provided any rules so I would like to provide some: No new arguments may be made after round 2. Cases will be made in round 2.

Pro must prove that it is absolutely necessary to have estate tax to maintain a natural aristocracy in the United States.
I will prove that estate tax is not necessary to maintain a natural aristocracy in the United States.

I look forward to your reply. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 1
wpfairbanks

Pro

Artificial aristocracy: an artificial aristocracy founded on wealth and birth, without either virtue or talents; for with these it would belong to the first class (source T.J.)

Natural aristocracy: The grounds of [natural aristocracy] are virtue and talents.

Artificial aristocracy is privilege that has been either inherited or acquired not on the basis of virtue and talent. The modern sociological term for this would be "ascribed status".

As Warren buffett said, "The idea that you get a lifetime of privately funded food stamps based on coming out of the right womb strikes at my idea of fairness."

Or as FDR most eloquently put it, "Inherited economic power is as inconsistent with the ideals of this generation as inherited political power was inconsistent with the ideals of the generation which established our Government."

My opponent has to prove that a tax on estate is not necessary to maintaining a natural aristocracy, yet when one is born into the world, or at the passing of a parent, is automatically entitled to a sum of money that is completely arbitrarily deserved (unless he killed the parent [joke]), that one automatically entitled to more educational, social, political advantages of another-- even if this is in the slightest form possible, it is still a artificial.

I close by stating that any form of money artificially inherited, awards artificial aristocracy, which as Jefferson said "is a mischievous ingredient in government, and provision should be made to prevent it's ascendancy."
SniperJake94

Con

I negate: Resolved: Estate Tax is necessary to maintaining a Natural Aristocracy in the United States.
I will provide some definitions:
Estate Tax: a tax imposed on a decedent's property, assessed on the gross estate prior to distribution to the heirs.
Natural aristocracy: an aristocracy, which arises out of work and competition rather than birth, education, or special privilege
Paraphrase from: The Irony of Democracy.
My arguments:
Contention 1. An estate tax will lead to a decreasing amount of resources to maintain aristocracy. Aristocratic hereditary titles are based upon the value of the inheritance. "The Death Tax blindly takes its cut and leaves families to pick up the pieces." According to IRS Publication 950, in 2008 an inherited amount of 2 million will be taxed at a rate of 45%. This estate tax cannot maintain aristocracy.
http://www.nodeathtax.org...
Contention 2. Estate tax hurts the United States and its citizens. By dealing with such taxes, people are more concern about the tax than their business, being more concern on the tax will soon cut the production rate, and by cutting the production rate our economy slows and stocks drop.
Sub point a. Estate tax hurts the common people. This tax applies to all U.S citizens. By taking away much of the property before it is passed on causes the heirs to pick up the scraps and live on it. (TomPaine.com)
Sub point b. Estate tax has hurt the economy. With the poor economy people are losing jobs, properties lose value, every aspect of society is affected. The economics of the Estate Tax stated, "The estate tax is a leading cause of dissolution for thousands of family-run businesses. Estate tax planning further diverts resources available for investment and employment."
Sub point c. The estate tax is a corrupt tax. Politicians do not transfer this tax for welfare services. TomPaine.com stated, "A big chunk has gone to CEOs, investment bankers and hedge fund managers. This past year, 25 hedge fund managers each took home at least $130 million. Henry Paulson, our about-to-be Treasury Secretary, pocketed over $30 million. Average CEO pay back in 1966 was 60 times that of the typical American worker. Now it's 400 times."
Sub point d: It has doesn't help the U.S government only corrupt insurances. Nodeathtax.com states, "In the end, the IRS takes $20 billion a year out of our economy that should be used for job creation, the insurance industry takes billions more, and small business owners spend precious time and money to deal with this horrendous tax instead of being productive."
In conclusion estate tax is unnecessary and corrupt to maintain natural aristocracy. By allowing it to become necessary we are adding it as a harmful issue into natural aristocracy, thus contaminating its true meaning. I have proven that estate tax does more harm than good. If we do support this tax we are also supporting a corrupt natural aristocrarcy. Vote Con. Thank you and I await Pro's reply
Debate Round No. 2
wpfairbanks

Pro

Notice Sir, I have not once stated that my argument is on behalf the THE estate tax, but rather on behalf of "estate tax". This means that "contention two" shall be thrown out the window immediately. I cannot and will not argue on behalf of HOW the estate tax currently in the United States is run by politicians.

I do find it quite humorous that one of your sources is tompaine.com, being how he was actually the first American to suggest the estate tax. And I do not how reliable of a source "nodeathtax.org is. But I digress.

Your statement that "aristocratic hereditary titles are based upon the value of the inheritance" is true, but does it relate to how we have consensually defined aristocracy? No

"The Death Tax blindly takes its cut and leaves families to pick up the pieces."

Huh? If a family is intact, then no money will be lost. The estate tax is on the TRANSFER of assets. Not the death of a human. Death Tax isn't even a logical term. If a family loses a loved one, no tax will be imposed upon them, unless the deceased had the money exclusively, in which the family has never entitled to spend it in the first place.

"I have proven that estate tax does more harm than good. If we do support this tax we are also supporting a corrupt natural aristocrarcy."

If what you just did was prove that estate tax does more harm than good, you certainly did not do it well. You proved that the current system in which the estate tax is working, is corrupt. I would concede the point if I ever opposed it, but since I did not, we agree. Oh, and can you please dignify the last sentence of the quote above? If we support the CURRENT estate tax, we are not supporting a corrupt natural aristocracy, but merely an artificial aristocracy.

I thus continue to contend, the estate tax creates a class of people who are not better than anyone else, but rather came out of the vagina of a wealthy person, and come to be irresponsible in the dealings of the aristocracy.

And please do not put "vote con" so annoying
SniperJake94

Con

Pro's rebuttal then Pro's case.
Sorry about the "vote con" because of the very limited space of 3000 characters.
Because my opponent has not defined "estate tax" in his case we must look at my definition. Please note that there is only one estate tax in existence therefore it must be THE estate tax. My opponent doesn't argue how estate tax runs in the U.S, what point are we debating about? How it's run, most likely that way there is more evidence on this and how its necessary to maintain N.A= more clash.
Tom Paine actually disliked natural aristocracy and persuaded colonists to rebel in "Common Sense." My opponent has also proved no evidence on
Tom Paine being the first to suggest this tax.
We have not agreed on our definition of N.A. My definition was defined by "the irony of democracy." Pro's by T.J. Pro's definition is invalid stated in his FDR quote. NoDeathTax.org is supported by American Family Business Institute. That is a reliable source. Many statics are from the IRS and news.
Death tax is another term for Estate tax (dictionary.com). With our failing economy, of course people will want to get out of debt, thus they will use any resources they have.
My opponent is trying to put words in my case. This is unfair because I never agreed on it. He shows no real refutation to my contention 2, yet even fails to walk over it. And also what did we agree on in the third to last paragraph?
Pro's case: My opponent has not yet proven in his case why estate tax is necessary. He tries to use quotes from famous people to persuade you, yet he doesn't provide analysis on the quotes. His Warren Buffett quote on privately funded food stamps has no clear link. His FDR quote is saying our government was established through generations with different perspectives, our perspectives now are changed compared to the colonial times. This is contradictory with his Thomas Jefferson quote and his source of definition because Jefferson lived at a different time from us, therefore his definition for artificial and natural aristocracy is invalid. "Natural aristocracy: The grounds of [natural aristocracy] are virtue and talents." If Pro wins estate tax will add a harmful piece to the concept of natural aristocracy, thus this will not achieve virtue (behavior showing high moral standards).
Voting issues:
1. My opponent has not proven and gave arguments why and how estate tax is necessary. He merely tired to describe the differences, which contradicts with his FDR quote.
2. He has provided no real refutation for my case. I've defended it, it still stands. He has not attacked my contention 1 and 2 as a whole, thus estate tax harms aristocracy because it diverts resources & harms the goverment and citizens.
3. I have proven his case to be contradictory and false. His definition is invalid because of his FDR quote thus you must look to mine. If Pro's definition won, estate tax will demote Natural Aristocracy.
For these reasons above, I urge a Con vote. Thank y
Debate Round No. 3
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by SniperJake94 8 years ago
SniperJake94
I would like to see the arguements you concealed. They were quite unclear to me. I doesn't matter cause there's only a day left to vote and no one's interested in voting this. I can guess you probably did Parli or Policy on a debate team.
Posted by wpfairbanks 8 years ago
wpfairbanks
I must therefore use your analysis?? Do you realize that you are an absolute idiot? Why would I rewrite my arguments? And if they are so bad, then you should be looking at what it was that allowed bad arguements to destroy you. You fool. If you are so sure of your skills, just challege me to another debate.
Posted by SniperJake94 8 years ago
SniperJake94
I ment my cellphone contract
Posted by SniperJake94 8 years ago
SniperJake94
Thank You for the insulting my first debate" rain is better than snow." I can't vote for myself because I didn't renew my contract. I technically have 6 points. so it's 21-6 acutally. If you believe your won fair and square please post your actual arguements from your case in the comments. Quotes do not count as an arguement. You also did not provide any anaylsis or interpertation for your FDR quote therefore you must use my anaylsis.
Posted by wpfairbanks 8 years ago
wpfairbanks
My mistake, you have actually lost 5 debates.
Posted by wpfairbanks 8 years ago
wpfairbanks
To accuse me of having joint accounts, is not only extremely disrespectful, but done (like your arguing) poorly, and rather unconvincingly. I can understand your anger against getting slaughtered in this discourse, but honestly, how absurd is it? I have no joint accounts, and am undefeated in my debates, and you have won only 1 debate out of your 5 (the other 4 lost). OH and the one measly debate that you did win was that "rain was not better than snow". Wow, a true exertion of intellectual rigour there. I did vote for myself in this debate once, and I am sure you voted for yourself, so discounting ourselves, I have won 21-0 (notice the little circle representing your public support). You may choose to deny my successes, but I will leave it with the audience, which as we have seen, does not fair you well.

As for the FDR quote, I would not expect someone of your intellect to understand it, so that too I will leave with the audience. As for now, I await a response from the little rat bastard we all detest, little Sniper Jake.
Posted by SniperJake94 8 years ago
SniperJake94
FDR's quote,"Inherited economic power is as inconsistent with the ideals of this generation as inherited political power was inconsistent with the ideals of the generation which established our Government." Key word is inconsistent. According to Dictionary.com definition is:not staying the same throughout; having self-contradictory elements. Thus our views and T.J's views are different. My opponent has not yet given a case or any arguments for the resolution. It's absurd to vote for him. He probably has multiple or joint accounts to vote for himself.
Posted by wpfairbanks 8 years ago
wpfairbanks
Looks like someone is not a great loser. FDR is saying that economic power inherited is as bad for our country as the founders though artificial aristocracy was for politics. This reaffirms my point. I did not point our that Jefferson's ideals were different than ours today. You are an absolute fool, and the voters have spoken this. Why don't you explain the FDR quote to everyone, because I would love to hear an intellectuals take.
Posted by SniperJake94 8 years ago
SniperJake94
Estate tax's purpose is to harm the wealthy. Plus pro did not state any reason to uphold the resolution. He just refuted my case. His case was also contradictary. Read and analysis his FDR quote. It points out that T.J's ideas and ours today should be different.
Posted by wpfairbanks 8 years ago
wpfairbanks
Sniperjake, I did not "cite" Thomas Paine being for an estate tax, because I figured because you had the audacity to cite him, you had read him. In "The Rights of Man" and "Agrarian Justice", he calls for an inheritance tax. Obviously, you would have no way of knowing this. In Agrarian justice, Paine calls for a natural aristocracy through a system where inheritace goes into a national fund that pays for schooling equally. I do not mind you questioning me on merit, but don't question my knowledge on Paine, through that of which you have probably accumulated through a glance at wikipedia.org

http://www.amazon.com...

Read it
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