The Instigator
MikeyMike
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
tvellalott
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points

Resolved: In a fight with prior preparation, Batman would beat Ozymandias(Adrian Veidt)

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
tvellalott
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/6/2012 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,030 times Debate No: 21766
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (18)
Votes (2)

 

MikeyMike

Con

I stand before you today to make the claim that Adrian Veidt (Ozymandias) would beat Batman in a fight.

The fight will be judged in the same format as the popular t.v. show on Spike TV known as "Deadliest Warrior". Both characters abilities and traits will be taken into consideration and then input into a computer simulation that runs 1000 virtual battles and judges the victor based on who wins the most battles. Voters please use your imagination to achieve this affect.

1st Round-Acceptance
2nd Round- Arguments
3rd Round- Rebuttals
4th Round-Rebuttals, No new arguments

No semantics, no PIS, only comic book evidence/canon databases will be allowed

By no PIS, I mean no citing of inconsistent evidence, evidence that goes against other things found in the comics, and evidence that resulted from a convenient plot constructed device.

Example: How Superman seems to conveniently forget a lot of his abilities and how strong he really is, and allowing himself to be beat by far weaker people.

Please don't accept this debate if you're just a crazed Batman fan with hardly any knowledge of the character.

All questions should be asked in the comment box.

http://www.quickmeme.com...
tvellalott

Pro

I accept.


Oh and in response to your Condescending Willy Wonka, Bane has only broken Batman's spine once, though he is physically capable of doing it every time, so let me tell you about all the other times they've faced off...
Debate Round No. 1
MikeyMike

Con

Thank you to my opponent for accepting this challenge.

I am fully aware that Bane has only broken Batman’s back once. The point of my meme was to show that Batman’s level of preparedness is highly exaggerated by his fans. If he was as prepared as everyone says he is, he would have been prepared for Bane on their first encounter, yet his fractured spine begs to differ…. Batman beating Bane other times doesn’t matter, it’s not that impressive to be prepared for something you’ve encountered before, it’s common sense, a little something I like to call, learning from your mistakes (2 year olds are capable of this).

Argument 1.
When it comes to the issue of who is more physically capable, I would have to give it to Veidt. If it came down to hand to hand combat between the two of them, I would give the fight to Ozy. YES Batman is an extremely capable fighter who has been trained In many different martial art forms, but we have to ask ourselves would this really be a factor in this fight? Ozy is at peak human form (1). It is even safe to say that he is above peak form. He’s caught a bullet with his bare hand, at point blank range, from the Silk Spectre (a trained vigilante). Now let’s stop and think about how amazing of a feat that actually is.

Ozy cathces a bullet fired at point blank range.

The first point I would like to highlight is the fact that he was bare handed when he caught the bullet. Normally, a bullet at point blank range would go through anything from bone, to wood, to stone, and even metal. Yet, Ozy was able to catch one, and the only injury he sustained was a bloody palm. This attests to the durability of Ozy’s body. A bullet posseses far greater impact than a punch. If Ozy can take a bullet to the hand at point blank, he can take a punch from Batman.

Let me make one thing clear; Ozy reacted to the bullet and caught it. It’s not that he was already in action before it fired, his reflexes are at the point where his body can move at speeds faster than a bullet. Batman does not punch or move as fast as a bullet; in other words, he will not hit Ozy.

Last but not least, he was also able to predict where the bullet would be fired, and thus act accordingly. Ozy would likely see Batman's punches a mile away. He might as well have Spidey sense (exageration but you get the point).

Batman has evaded bullets that he saw coming, and moved before the gun was fired, but he has never actually dodged one in the sense that he reacted to an already fired gun, and evaded the bullet.
Batman has never caught a bullet, and has never been shown to be able to take a bullet (without his suit or any special gadgets) and suffer no serious injury.

Argument 2.
In a fight like this where prep time is given to both participants, intellect is a very heavy factor. Adrian’s IQ is stands at around 235 (2,6), while Batman’s is in the upper 100’s, 193 I believe. For those who are not familiar with how the intelligent quotient works, I will tell you that such a gap makes a huge difference. Genius lvl IQ is said to be anywhere from 140 (4,5). It is also said that two people with an IQ difference of 30 points and higher tend to view the world in a completely different way. “Not just politically differently, but coloring the way they interact with other people, their approach to problem-solving, their speech patterns. “ (6) Adrian is 42 iq points above Batman.

Of course my opponent will attempt to cite the level of Batman’s preparedness in this debate, and that will probably be what he considers to be his strongest point. However, I am here to tell you that against such an opponent as Adrian, this will count for naught. When it comes to planning ahead, and being prepared, no comic book character stands out in my head more than Adrian. He is a guy who was smart enough to trick the world into peace. He outsmarted Dr. Manhattan, a guy who can see into the future, and is a near omniscient and omnipotent being. He played everyone on his team in such a way that furthered his plan. Everyone played their role so perfectly; they were like pawns in his hand.
He even managed to devise a plan to destroy Dr. Manhattan, though it ended up failing, and was only able to dispatch of him for a bit, but being able to even come up with a tactic to defeat a guy with near unlimited power is an impressive feat on it’s own.

Dr. Manhattan specifically said this to Adrian “Reassembling myself was the first trick I learned. It didn't kill Osterman... did you really think it would kill me? I have walked across the surface of the Sun. I have witnessed events so tiny and so fast they can hardly be said to have occurred at all. But you, Adrian, you're just a man. The world's smartest man poses no more threat to me than does its smartest termite. “ (7)
If Dr. Manhattan calls you the world’s smartest man, then you are the world’s smartest man.

Adrian’s attention to detail is near impeccable. He is able to watch a wall with over 40 tv screens on it, each showing a different image, while still being able to pay attention to and detect an attack from behind by Rorschach and Nightowl. He was also the only one with the observation skills and insight necessary to pick up on the subtle clues which showed that Dr. Manhattan is not completely devoid of emotion. He found what makes a god (for all intents and purposes) tick. If you don’t find this impressive then I don’t know what else to tell you.

Argument 3.
In his universe, Ozy stands far above everyone else, and is second only to Dr. Manhattan. The only person who ever handed him a defeat was The Comedian, and he has long since avenged that loss. Ozy is consistently supreme, and makes all other people he has worked with (genius inventors and brilliant detectives such as Nite Owl and Rorshach) seem incompetent.

Sidenote: Money isn’t a relevant factor in this debate. I don’t truly know who has more money between the two, but they are both billionaires so it’s safe to say money is not an object. There’s really nothing that can be bought monetarily that these two can’t afford.


1. http://en.wikipedia.org...(comics)
2. http://sueniverse.wikia.com...
4. http://en.wikipedia.org...
5. http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com...
6. http://paradisa.wikia.com...
7. http://en.wikiquote.org...

tvellalott

Pro

tvellalott forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
MikeyMike

Con

Damn it...

Another one has fell victim to my incontrovertible logic.

Your death will not be in vain my friend, you have added to my win ratio.

If my opponent presents an argument in the following round, I ask that the audience overlook his forfeit, and judge the debate as if it did not happen.
tvellalott

Pro

OPENING

Na-na na-na na-na na-na, na-na na-na na-na na-na, BATMAN!
Thank you to my opponent for waving his well deserved conduct points if I could submit an argument.

I'll try.

REBUTTALS

ARGUMENT ONE
Let's be honest; a LOT of my opponents argument rests on the fact that Veidt was able to catch a bullet point-blank, so I will address this in two parts...

PART ONE: Veidt has better reflexes?

My opponent concludes that because Veidt is capable of catching a bullet at point blank range, he is more physically capable. I beg to differ.
I will grant that catching a bullet at point blank range is quite a feat and I am unable to reproduce an instance of Batman performing equivalently.

Having said that, let's not forget that Batman has awesome reaction speeds himself. Let's look at some evidence, shall we?
-Batman dodges Mr. Freeze's ice-blasts at point blank range. [1]
-Batman, disguised as Sir Hemingford Gray and with a broken spine, catches a baseball inches away from his face. [2]
-Batman catches an arrow fired from behind by the Green Arrow (world's greatest archer), without looking or having previously acknowledged Green Arrow was even there. [3]

You said…
"Batman has never caught a bullet, and has never been shown to be able to take a bullet (without his suit or any special gadgets) and suffer no serious injury."

But when he's Batman… he's wearing his suit and he has his gadgets… soooo… this point is irrelevant, right? With his suit, he can block bullets with his arm… Not just one bullet either. [4]

I assert that Batman may be unable to catch a bullet fired point blank, but has been repeatedly been shown to be at the very pinnacle of human speed, agility, reflex and dexterity.


PART TWO: Veidt is more durable?

As proven by the fact Veidt was both stunned and hurt by catching the bullet, we know that he is far from invincible. This is not an easy feat to him and I highly doubt he could catch even two bullets. This indicates that catching a bullet is the absolute limit of his abilities, which is very important.
Let's look at the extent of Batman's durability:

-Withstands the vacuum of space for 24 seconds [5]
-Not only isn't killed by a punch from possessed Superman, actually gets up after being hit. [6][7]
-Isn't even phased by Superman using heat vision to burn a tracking chip out of his brain [8]

I assert that Batman is more durable than Veidt.


ARGUMENT TWO: Veidt is more intelligent?

I find it an extreme stretch to think that Batman would be outclassed by Veidt in terms of strategy.

Even if I were to give my opponent the benefit of the doubt and say that Veidt did indeed possess a higher IQ than Batman, it wouldn't mean anything. Regardless, my research didn't find definitive IQ's for either character...

However, the DC official Wikipedia cited him as having genius level intellect with degrees and mastery of a diverse range of skills and sciences. [9] Batman has clearly mastered all the skills that he feels will help him.

But all of this discussion of IQ is irrelevant anyway...

In the world of Watchmen, how many times has Veidt even been put to the test?
He lives in a world with only one super-powered individual; that is Dr. Manhatten.
He lives in a world where his claim to fame is one almost perfectly executed plan.
I say almost because, whoops, Rorschach's diary was delivered to the press and as my opponent already said, he failed to kill Dr. Manhattan. He was essentially outsmarted by Rorschach, right?

Now, compare this to the DC universe. Batman has a massive rogue gallery, none of whom have been able to permanently kill the Bat. Batman has dealt with and (with help of course) defeated Darkseid [10] one of the most powerful beings in comic book history. Lex Luthor himself knows better than to even try and stop Batman and instead goes on a massive defensive in the event of a "Code Black" [11]
Batman has been repeatedly put to the test against stronger, faster and smarter enemies and time and time again been shown to triumph.

Add into this the fact Batman has a photographic memory [12] and it becomes clear that Batman has infinitely more combat and strategic experience to draw from.

You said "If Dr. Manhattan calls you the world's smartest man, and then you are the world's smartest man."

Batman doesn't exist in this world, so Dr. Manhattan's opinion on the matter is irrelevant.

I assert that Veidt would not be considered so great if he existed in the DC Universe, while Batman is considered great, despite co-existing with super-powered individuals.

ARGUMENT 3 - Veidt beat Nite Owl and Rorschach?

Did he really beat Rorschach? Again, my opponent has failed to mention what happens at the end of Watchmen.


COUNTER-ARGUMENTS

Batman's strength and fighting skills

It's amusing to me that my opponent seems convinced that Veidt is a superior fighter to Batman, despite a distinct lack of evidence to support this, whereas there is a huge amount of evidence to suggest the exact opposite. I haven't read Watchmen for quite some time, so forgive me if I'm wrong but…

I can't find any evidence that suggests that Veidt even compares to Batman in terms of fighting skill. We have seen Veidt defeat Comedian, Silk Spectre, Rorschach and Nite Owl in combat, albeit quite easily. Which of these examples is the one who compares to Batman? All but Rorschach had long since retired from crime fighting. None of them are remotely considered master martial artists, whereas Batman has repeatedly been cited as having a mastery of all martial art styles in the world [13][14] among his other skills.

My opponent suggests that Batman can't hurt Veidt because Veidt can catch a bullet. Pfft. Batman doesn't need to use force; he can use nerve attacks to disable his opponent [15][16]. Veidt is human, after all. Add on the fact Batman can press 1000lb [17] and I have little doubt to that Batman would have the choice of pulverising Veidt with a flurry of expert blows or silently defeat him with a single unexpected touch (since he has been shown as capable of sneaking away right under Superman's nose [18]).

I assert that Batman is by far a superior fighter to Veidt.

CONCLUSION

I've conceded that Veidt MAY be faster than Batman, but I see no reason to believe he is physically superior in any other way as both are only said to be "peak of human ability", indicating they're about even. I've even shown good reason to believe that Batman is far more durable than Veidt.

I have however shown that in terms of fighting skill, there is no reason to believe Batman isn't vastly superior.
Add the fact that Batman has so much more experience then Veidt and this battle is locked.

SOURCES

[01] http://www.debate.org...
[02] http://www.debate.org...
[03] http://www.debate.org...
[04] http://www.debate.org...
[05] http://www.debate.org...
[06] http://www.debate.org...
[07] http://www.debate.org...
[08] http://www.debate.org...
[09] http://dc.wikia.com...
[10] http://dc.wikia.com...
[11] http://www.debate.org...
[12] http://www.debate.org...
[13] http://www.debate.org...
[14] http://www.debate.org...
[15] http://www.debate.org...
[16] http://www.debate.org...
[17] http://www.debate.org...
[18] http://www.debate.org...
Debate Round No. 3
MikeyMike

Con

MikeyMike forfeited this round.
tvellalott

Pro

The weight of the evidence stacked against Veidt was clearly overwhelming.
I still offer my opponent a rematch with the same or any reasonable Batman related topic, but after the flogging I just gave him it doesn't seem likely to happen.

Debate Round No. 4
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by tvellalott 2 years ago
tvellalott
I understand. I forfeit all the time. Life comes before DDO.
Posted by MikeyMike 2 years ago
MikeyMike
I would like to extend a formal apology. Midterms took up most of my time, and debating was the last thing I wanted to do with the little free time I had. Sorry for the forfeits.
Posted by Maikuru 2 years ago
Maikuru
Shame about the forfeits, but I'll still try to give this a read and a vote soon.
Posted by tvellalott 2 years ago
tvellalott
Thanks, I'll get my argument in in about 10 hours.
Posted by OMGJustinBieber 2 years ago
OMGJustinBieber
I'd definitely say Ozymandias on first glance but I'd interested to see what tv comes up with here.
Posted by MikeyMike 2 years ago
MikeyMike
I actually might be wrong, Adrian is quite possibly wealthier than Batman
Posted by Wallstreetatheist 2 years ago
Wallstreetatheist
Ozymandias will win with his superior poetry skills.

I met a traveler from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
Posted by MikeyMike 2 years ago
MikeyMike
lol smh, you need to get on that; you're missing out.

I hope I don't get trolled agian.. and actually get a competent challenger.
Posted by Maikuru 2 years ago
Maikuru
It's like the one big comic I never read lol. With the movie, I'm sure you'll get a challenger quick.
Posted by MikeyMike 2 years ago
MikeyMike
I was gonna directly challenge you, but I wanted either u or Logical_Master to accept this, someone with adequate knowledge of comics.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by TheNerd 2 years ago
TheNerd
MikeyMiketvellalottTied
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Total points awarded:00 
Reasons for voting decision: Lulz.
Vote Placed by Maikuru 2 years ago
Maikuru
MikeyMiketvellalottTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: There seems to be only a small difference between their physical duration and reflexes. While Adrian is clearly more intelligent, it seems Batman is more tactical, the better combatant, and much more acquainted with dealing with violence and highly intelligent individuals and organizations. With so many similarities between characters, the edge must be given to the character with more experience. That undoubtedly goes to Batman. Arguments to Pro, all else equal.