The Instigator
Logical-Master
Con (against)
Losing
36 Points
The Contender
Robert_Santurri
Pro (for)
Winning
39 Points

Resolved: In a fight without prior preparation, Batman would certainly defeat Spider-Man.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 14 votes the winner is...
Robert_Santurri
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/28/2008 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 17,478 times Debate No: 5418
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (96)
Votes (14)

 

Logical-Master

Con

If Batman and Spider-Man were to fight, Spider-Man would beat the living daylights out of Batman.

First, Spider-Man has superhuman abilities. Batman is an Olympic level human in terms of physical attributes. Clearly, Spider-Man is superior in this regard.

Second, Spider-Man has the advantage in terms of intellect. Whereas Batman abuses his billions of dollars to buy fancy gadgets, Spider-Man actually creates his sophisticated devices (while using an extremely limited amount of resources) whenever he needs them. He is also well known for coming up with advanced battle strategies on the spot. In fact, due to his intelligence, Spider-Man was able to defeat the villain known as Fire Lord (a villain almost as powerful as Silver Surfer) in Amazing Spider-Man issues 269-270 without needing a rematch.

Third, although Batman knows plenty of martial arts, Spider-Man has managed to develop his own unique fighting style that even Captain America (who is regarded as the best martial artist in the Marvel Universe)(someone who Batman thought of as being superior during both comic book crossovers) cannot help but praise.

Fourth, Spider-Man has his spider sense, so Batman won't be able to count on surprising Spider-Man.

Taking these four points into account, our favorite web head would mop the floor with the Dark Knight any day of the week.

Some of these points may need elaboration.

I now stand ready for my opponent's case.
Robert_Santurri

Pro

I would first like to thank my opponent for starting such an interesting debate of a topic that I love.

My opponent has not defined any of his terms but I'll assume by Spider-Man he means Peter Parker, by Batman he means Bruce Wayne, and living daylights I assume he means beat handily instead of the regular definition of the saying.

I shall and hopefully he will follow the definitions I set since he failed to set any.

My opponent first contention was that Spider-Man has superhuman abilities while Batman is an Olympic Level human in terms of physical attributes.

My problem with my opponent first contention is there are several flaws in it.

First off, Batman has defeated just about every single villain or even hero in the DC Universe who has superhuman abilities.

Just a short list goes as follows:
Superman
Practically Batman entire rogue gallery with superhuman abilities such as Poison Ivy, Clayface, Killer Croc, and several others.
Darkseid

I also would believe that Spider-Man would not be able to defeat such a criminal like Scarecrow while being forced to face his greatest fear.

Second off, to assume that Batman cannot outsmart Spider-Man into turning Spider-Man superhuman powers against Spider-Man is underestimating Batman. I shall go more into Batman's abilities in Contention #3.

Onwards to my opponent second (2nd) contention true believers.

My opponent has falsely assumed that Spider-Man has the advantage in terms of intellect.

Batman does not "abuse" his billions of dollars to buy fancy gadgets, but rather have fancy gadgets made in order to enhance his abilities.

If you the voter want a good example of when Batman is working without most of his "fancy gadgets" and relying on his intelligence would be the Batman story of No Man's Land. No Man's Land is not only considered one of Batman greatest stories but is a great story in general for non-Batman fans.

Batman is also considered "The World's Greatest Detective" and has been before the Spider-Man character has even been in existence. He is also a master of disguise, often gathering information under the identity of Matches Malone. Creating a secret identity for a disguise in order to gain entry into the mob is something we've never seen Spider-Man do.

Speaking of which, Batman is so intelligent that he created a plan in preparation for a possible outbreak of uncontrollable gang violence. Batman developed an elaborate scenario that would unite Gotham's entire underworld under a single crime boss: Matches Malone.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

The original intent of the plan may have gone awry due to Spoiler not knowing the full extent of the situation but using Batman's plan Black Mask did become the ultimate crime lord of Gotham until taken down later.

Batman created Brother Eye – a semi-autonomous artificial intelligence surveillance system. Equipping it with an anti-detection stealth system, he launched the satellite into geosynchronous orbit. Through the use of Brother Eye, Batman collected a massive database of information concerning every known metahuman on Earth.

Ra's al Ghul who is one of Batman deadliest enemies succeeded in hacking into Batman database system. He used the information supplied in his files to ascertain the weaknesses of the JLA members and thereby exploit them.
http://img68.imageshack.us...
http://img65.imageshack.us...

Now to refute my opponent next point:
"Spider-Man actually creates his sophisticated devices (while using an extremely limited amount of resources) whenever he needs them."

As of Brand New Day, Spider-Man has lost many of the abilities he has gained over time and has gone back to using his original web shooters. I shall go into more detail with this in Contention #3.

"He is also well known for coming up with advanced battle strategies on the spot."
Could not the same be said about Batman? Batman has made of plenty of advanced battle strategies on the spot. He always wants to be three steps ahead of his opponent and most of the time is. He has shown to fight unknown opponent's many times or familiar opponent's in unexpected situations and win.

An example of this would be Batman using his intelligence to defeat Jean Paul Valley at the end of Batman: Knightsend in order to regain the mantle respectively. There are plenty of other examples I could use if needed.

My opponent third contention was:
"Third, although Batman knows plenty of martial arts, Spider-Man has managed to develop his own unique fighting style that even Captain America (who is regarded as the best martial artist in the Marvel Universe)(someone who Batman thought of as being superior during both comic book crossovers) cannot help but praise."

In "War of the Worlds" JLA #3, Superman describes Batman as "the most dangerous man on Earth," able to defeat a team of super powered aliens all by himself in order to rescue his imprisoned teammates. This is coming from Superman, the man who could easily destroy both Spider-Man and Captain America.

"Officially" though, Batman is a polymath, mentally not operating on the same wavelength as the rest of us. In some Batman origin stories, they say he was a martial arts prodigy, who mastered all known forms of unarmed combat, with only 1 year of training each. Not became "very good at" or "reached 10th dan levels" at; mastered.

So it is not just "plenty of martial arts" that Batman knows. Never mind the fact that if Batman is in a fight with someone he doesn't like to play fair because he knows his opponent would not play fair. He then would most likely use his famous utility belt.
This is a complete list of all the things Batman has had in his utility belt over the years:
http://members.fortunecity.com...

As explained here:
http://www.comicvine.com...
"All of Spider-Man's new powers and increases have been erased due to Mephisto rewriting his personal history."

So Spider-Man is really back to stage one, versus a Batman who is stronger then ever. If anything, such a fight would be child's play for Batman.

My opponent fourth and final contention was:
"Fourth, Spider-Man has his spider sense, so Batman won't be able to count on surprising Spider-Man."

Does my opponent ignore the number of people who have gotten past Spidey spider sense over the years?
If not, I shall refresh his memory.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

I ask my opponent and readers to scroll just a little up to get the point of where it says Enemies immune to the spider-sense in black.

To say that Batman with his advanced intelligence could not think of a way to surpass Spider-man's spider sense but many of Spider-man mere rogues can is ignoring the abilities of the Batman character.

What I have proven:
On paper, although Spiderman may have superhuman strength, this not automatically makes Spider-Man better or give him an advantage against the Batman.

That Batman is the "World's Greatest Detective" and is more intelligent in many if not all areas then Spider-man.

Batman is the greatest Martial-Artist in the world, Spider-Man powers and abilities have decreased severely, and Batman is considered the world most dangerous man by Superman.

Spider-Man spidey senses have failed in the past to mere rogues and the same could happen to the Batman who is always five steps ahead of his enemies even when surprised.

So true believers, I await my opponent second round argument and I urge you to vote for PRO when the time comes to vote.

My other references:
1.) http://www.comicvine.com...
2.) http://en.wikipedia.org...
3.) http://www.comicvine.com...
Debate Round No. 1
Logical-Master

Con

>>>RE DEFINITIONS: I accept the definitions which my opponent has provided.

>>>RE STRENGTH

There are three problems with my opponent's argument here:

1) The purpose of my argument was to establish that Batman was at a disadvantage. Although Batman has defeated super power beings, we must note that the villains at the core of his own rogue gallery do not possess super powers or rather "significant" super powers, thus, he is usually able to dispose of these villains while making great use of his own olympic level abilities.

2) The only times Batman has defeated Superman was when the storyline had relied on PIS (plot induced stupidity) as well as when Batman had a significant amount of preparation (which, as the resolution insist here, Batman gets no preparation time). For instance, in none of Batman's fights with superman has superman ever simply used his super speed to speed blitz Batman or simply use his ice breath or heat vision to negate the effects of the kryptonite as he most commonly does with ANY villain that uses kryptontie. It's almost as if he forgets he has these powers whenver fighting Batman.

As for Darkseid, even with some prep as well as some significant armor increases, this is what happened to Batman:

http://img154.imageshack.us...
http://img154.imageshack.us...
http://img154.imageshack.us...
http://img154.imageshack.us...

In short, he loses BADLY.

3) True, some of the villains in Batman's rogue gallery have super human level abilities, but what my opponent doesn't tell you is that he has fought these SAME opponent's long enough to EVENTUALLY come up with means of defeating them which don't involve him having to do any work. For instance, with Clayface, he developed a special nitrogen tube which he can use to freeze him. He has developed similar chemicals to deal with Killer Croc and Poison Ivy. Once more, it is well acknowledged that he'd be fighting Spider-Man in a fight where there is no preparation, ergo, like most of his first fights against his opponents with super powers, he'd surely lose (I sure as heck don't recall Batman defeating poison ivy, clayface, or killer croc on the first try. Hell, the first time he battled the joker, he was thrown off a bridge).

4). Spider-Man has been tormented for years by far worse villains than the Scarecrow. The green goblin has been able to come back and constantly torment his family.

>>> INTELLIGENCE

1) Yeah, I thought "No Man's land" was a good story too, but what exactly did Batman do that was certainly worthy of great intelligence? Last I checked, no one really had a technological advantage in that storyline.

2) Batman is "the world's greatest detective" because he has the world's greatest equipment. Given the technoglocial edge of the bat computer as well as his state of the art forsenics equipment, it's no wonder detective work is a piece of cake for him. Sure, we can give him points for being knowledgable about things such as the scent of a rare flower in some third world country in Africa, but this does not show he has greater intelligence than Spider-Man. As I shall show in links of the next point, spider-man doesn't need years of education or experience to do many of the things Batman needed years of education to do.

3) If you'll notice one thing about all of the intelligence feats he cites for Batman is that they all required INTENSE preparation and for those who don't know, the reason Batman is regarded as one of the reasons Batman is regarded as one of the most dangerous beings on his earth is because of how good he is at preparation. However, we must once agan note that this is a straight up fight and in a straight up fight, this is what will more likely than not happen to Batman while facing off against a superior being: http://img7.exs.cx... . Basically, he can try his hardest, but in the end, his efforts are going to be futile (and even in that situation, he was ACTUALLY FAMILIAR with Wonder Woman -- unlike this situation where he has no clue about Spider-Man-- yet still stood no chance). In addition, what makes this battle even worse for Batman is that Spider-Man is one who can perform great intelligence feats spontaneously and without a plethora of prior research. He doesn't need preparation to pull off a "Batman-worthy" feat. Note the following:

http://img176.imageshack.us...
http://img145.imageshack.us... : In few seconds, Spider-Man learns how to operate an extremely advanced piece of machinery (which he has never even seen before), with such skill that he can do the desired effect with it (which is to divert the shockwave). Truly great display of intelligence.

http://img98.imageshack.us... : Hank Pym states that Spider-Man is SMARTER then he is (for those who don't know anything about Hank Pym, read this link to see just how intelligent this individual is: http://en.wikipedia.org... )

http://img516.imageshack.us... :Spider-Man figures out of how to use a complex system he has never encountered before in seconds.

http://img241.imageshack.us... :In maybe a hour, Spider-Man reverse-engineers a machine and makes a portable unit out of it that he can carry.

Spider-Man didn't need billions of dollars or years of uncanny education to accomplish any of the above; he is a natural genius.

4) As for the spontaneous battle strategies which PRO claimed Batman has pulled off, PRO should explain how defeating a street level opponent on the spot is really that impressive. Surely not as impressive as Spider-Man beating someone on Silver Surfer's level (a cosmic being) without any preparation at all. In addition, I would like PRO to provide these other examples which he claims he has.

>>>>Fighting Style

1) PRO should explain how exactly Batman defeated these aliens (as well as the powers of these aliens) so that we may examine whether or not this was impressive for our own eyes. As far as something coming from Superman, this is the guy who repeatedly forgets he has superspeed or heat vision while fighting people who don't even have super powers. If anything, this wouldn't suggest superman was too credible. In addtion, both Spider-Man and Captain America have defeated the Hulk, so my opponents presumption is certainly doubtful.

2) It doesn't matter how many martial arts Batman knows or what gadgets he uses:

http://img337.imageshack.us... - Tags a villain with super speed

http://img149.imageshack.us... -dodges bullets from ten snipers at once.

http://img176.imageshack.us... -dodges a bullet after it is shot at point blank range

http://img511.imageshack.us... -Moves so fast that he can't even be seen.

So tell me, how does Batman intend to peg Spider-Man with any gadgets given his speed? All Spider-Man has to do is speedblitz Batman and it's over.

3) Yes, his new power increases have been decreased. Fortunately, none of my scans occur after his new power increases, so this point is ineffective for PRO. Though if my opponent wants to use this argument, then we must note that in the most current Batman storyline, Batman doesn't possess any of his gadgets, has lost a great amount of his intelligence and is simply nothing more than a crazed psychopath (Batman #681), so this would negate pretty much most of his argument.

4) As for Spider sense, all of those villains (minus Venom, but he doesn't count) got around the spider sense through long periods of preparation (something which Batman doesn't have in this fight).

That'll do it for now.
Robert_Santurri

Pro

Definitions: I am pleased my opponent has accepted my definitions.

>>>>RE STRENGTH
1.) I never disagreed with the fact that plenty of Batman enemies do not have superpowers. However, Batman has always defeated the villains that he fought who had superpowers. However, my opponent has conceded the point that he has defeated super power beings. So why not Spider-Man then?

2.) This is a point I didn't have room to make the 1st time through. Superman could use any of those things that you named but he doesn't use those things against Batman. Why if you may ask? Superman deep down doesn't have that instinct or trigger to finish off an opponent like Batman with such abilities. He fights fair against Batman which is why Batman always wins. Batman doesn't play fair, just like I mentioned in my first round argument. Why do you think Superman trusted Batman with the Kryptonite ring? Because he not only sees Batman as an equal but he knows when the time comes that Batman will pull the trigger if Superman ever goes rogue. Like Superman, Spider-Man does not have that "trigger" to take down a hero like Batman in a fight; however Batman would have no qualms about taking down Spider-Man.

Ladies and gentlemen, my opponent has hoisted himself upon his own petard.

http://img154.imageshack.us...
My opponent fails to point out that Batman taunts Darkseid to use his powers against him.
Batman even states in the blue box, 3rd panel that: "The beating I'm taking is only for his personal enjoyment."

http://img154.imageshack.us...
In this one, Batman wins the exchange between Darkseid and himself.
Darkseid even admits that Batman has "well played" this and admits Batman has the STRENGTH OF CHARACTER to pull the trigger in this case to destroy an entire planet to achieve success.

Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to thank my opponent for proving my point that Batman will pull the trigger if needed! I have high doubts that Spider-Man would do such a thing! Batman also did not lose ladies and gentlemen as I've also proven.

3.) My opponent has conceded the point that some of the villains in Batman's rogue gallery have super human abilities. My opponent has also pointed out Batman intelligence in creating such things to stop Clayface, Killer Croc, and Poison Ivy. My opponent is continuing to prove my points for me because I have not seen Spider-Man create such things to stop criminals similiar to this except what the FF4 has for Venom and Carnage if needed. This goes back to my opponent's contention about Spider-Man supposedly being more intelligent then Batman. I also point to Shadow the Bat #3 where Poison Ivy's origins were revisited and in her first fight with Batman she was defeated.

4.) Spider-Man has never been gassed and had to face his greatest fear while trying to fight a enemy like Scarecrow. However, thank you for bringing up The Green Goblin as he will be brought up in the next contention.

>>> Intelligence
1.) In No Man's Land not only did Batman rebuild his myth and respect from the ground up but took on criminals who still had guns, armor, and their weapons. Batman was without many of the fancy gadgets that you mock him for.

2.) Batman proved in No Man's Land his detective work and intelligence without using such fancy gadgets. There are also other times where he has used his intelligence and not gadgets to solve crimes.

3.) You said that Spider-Man had the advantage in terms of intellect which I took as overall. But if you want to change it for the second round then fine with me. Batman is also a great strategist as shown in the Darkseid battle. All you've shown with the Wonder Woman image is he doesn't have super strength.

Spider-Man used all "his knowledge in science" to operate a machine he never used before but he had the basis of knowing how the machine works.

Peter Parker studied all his life in one field as did Hank, all this shows that Peter Parker would make a great impact in this field. It doesn't make him smarter then Batman though unless somehow a tracer is going to help him in battle which it wouldn't.

Spider-Man never saw this complex machine before? Is that why in the image you says "This looks like the energy combo that Honcho used. Maybe by reversing the polarities."
So, if he has never seen this complex machine before then how does he know Honcho used it and that this is the one it LOOKS like?

So Spider-Man also figures out this machine in the same field; science. Being great at science as you've given only example after example for doesn't mean he is more intelligent overall then Batman.
If this contention is about overall intelligence then Batman would still win for the things I listed in argument #1.

Finally for intelligence, I have never denied that he has an uncanny affinity that is nothing short of Genius for Science but again that does not make him smarter then Batman.

My own point on Intelligence again:

1.) The Death of Gwen Stacy, due to character limit I will send a link. However, it is needed to be pointed out that Spider-Man's "intelligence and quick thinking" were the reasons for Gwen's death.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

2.) Civil War - Spider Man decides to unmask himself and side with Iron Man (against Captain America who LM's opinion seems to think highly of). This will eventually result in Aunt May getting shot and his marriage forgotten to Mary Jane because of the deal between Peter/Mary and the demon Mephisto. So his "intelligence" almost cost him his aunt's life and cost him his marriage.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

3.) Clone Saga - Peter and everybody else has all been manipulated for years by Norman Osborn aka The Green Goblin.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

>>>>Fighting Style

1.) http://www.geocities.com.... Also, Superman would easily be able to defeat the Hulk.

2.) So you're comparing Batman to average criminals? That'd be like comparing Spider-Man to your average run of the mill Bat rogue. Trying to underestimate the skills of Batman in order to bolster your argument doesn't work. Also, Batman doesn't shoot guns so Spider-Man moving fast against mere criminals is nothing.

3.) Also, my opponent fails to point out that in 3 out of 4 of those images that Spider-Man was wearing his symbiote costume. Such a costume would enhance his powers.

As stated here:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

And go to Wikipedia and type in: Symbiote (comics) to see more information on the Symbiote costume.

4.) Spider-Man spider sense does not always work. Otherwise, Spider-Man would never get hit in battle (which he does often and has lost plenty of fights) and Spider-Man would never have a problem. I've proven this with not only common sense but with evidence in my first argument.

>> Couple of my own Points
I would just like take this time to address what my opponent said about the current Batman run. Where my opponent assumes that Batman is a "crazed psychopath" and quotes Batman #681.
Couple problems with that:
1.)Batman #681 has not even been released yet.

2.)Zur-En-Arrh Batman is a psychological/hypnotic trigger placed as a defense in case Bruce's mind is ever attacked. Bruce Wayne was so intelligent that he created such a trigger; I do not see Spider-Man doing such things. It's a "backup" personality or a Batman without the morals of Bruce Wayne as explained here:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

So this only does not negate my argument but bolsters it. This is only another example of the intelligence that Batman has. It's also unsure how R.I.P will end but we know for sure how Brand New Day has ended.

That's about it for this one, looking forward to Round 3.
Debate Round No. 2
Logical-Master

Con

I'm going to go ahead and tell you why should vote for my case immediately as its apparent that nothing is going to change in this round.

VOTE CON:

1) PRO's arguments for Batman mostly revolve around the notion or evidence that Batman has preparation. Whether it be him beating super powered beings or coming up with ingenious plans, one thing we can ascertain is that it thanks to prep. In this battle, there is no prep; this is essentially two guys being thrown into an arena only to instantly fight each other.

2) Spider-Man is fast. As shown by my evidence, he can move so fast that he can seem invisible to a non super powered HUMAN eye. When added with the fact that he has super strength (video section 1), it must be noted that he can take Batman down with merely ONE punch in a FRACTION OF A MICROSECOND.

3) Even if you buy into PRO's arguments on Batman being more intelligent, you still can't deny Spider-Man's intelligence. Even PRO himself agrees that Spidey is a genius. Thus, Batman relying on his wits is out of the question as he isn't just dealing with someone with nearly no intelligence such as Killer Croc or Clayface. He is dealing with a genius (who is easily one of the most intelligent individuals on the earth, as shown by Hank Pym's comment). It's like comparing a super genius level to 7 year old with martial arts skills to a nigh super genius level professional bodybuilder. Who do you think will win in a straight up fight?

4) PRO has provided you with no reason to believe Batman would be able overcome Spider-Man's spider sense without already having a tool built to deal with it. And check out the link PRO provided on this as it clearly notes that spider-sense has countered even the most skilled fighters in the MU.

5) Spidey's power upgrades were short lived and apply to none of my points.

Thus, PRO has failed to prove that Batman would CERTAINLY defeat Spider-Man in a fight WITHOUT PREPARATION.

>>>STRENGTH

1) Why not? As I established, the reason Batman has defeated most of these super powered beings in the first place if because of SIGNIFICANT PREPARATION. In other words, lets say I'm pitted in a fight with Bruce Lee. Under normal conditions, Bruce lee would own me, however, if you were to give me 2 weeks of onesided prep time, I could use my time of preparation to buy a "gun." and be victorious against Mr Lee.

2) -PRO ADMITS that the reason Batman ever beats Superman is because Superman holds back (or as I see it, forgets he has other super powers). In addition, I would suggest that PRO refer back to the storyline where the villain known as MaxLord mind controlled Superman (who was holding back still) to brutally beat Batman. Even with "prep time" (kryptonite usage), Superman decimated him with EASE: http://en.wikipedia.org...

-Superman sees Batman of worth when it comes to prep skills (which don't apply here).

-As for not having the trigger to take down a hero like Batman, watch the third section of my video and note how Spider-Man KO's the punisher (like Batman, except willing to kill) without hesitation.

3) PRO seems to take Batman's line "the beating I'm taking is only for his personal enjoyment" out of context as this line is made to signify that Darkseid is TOYING WITH HIM. Why else in the following blue box would he make a comment about the mother box only being able to "PROTECT HIM" for so long? This fact only hurts PRO.

DUE TO PREP, Batman survives, but as far as winning the actual exchange of blows goes, not really as that would have to mean that Batman won the fight. But as you see, ladies and gentleman, Batman gets his butt kicked severely!

4) PRO is ignoring the BLATANT SPIN on my points. I have acknowledged Batman skills at preparation, hence how he is able to stop the aforementioned foes, however, in regards to this debate, he doesn't get ANY prep, thus has no clue about Spider-Man, thus loses. And note how PRO ignores me pointing out how he has lost to Clayface, Killer Croc (and essentially all of his super powered villains) during the first bout. He tries to talk about Poison Ivy, but doesn't realize that Ivy's ACTUAL abilities to control plants as well as her swamp thing like powers were merely a later addition (an addition which not even all writers ackwnoledge).

5) Irrelevant. His greatest fears have been losing his family and he has experienced such often.

>>> INTELLIGENCE

1-2 ) http://en.wikipedia.org...: Bruce made use of his satellite Batcaves during this story arc. Sounds like technology to me.

3) The point being made was that he had the advantage of intellect for this fight as Bat's intellect excels at fights where he has prep (again, there is no prep here). Also, the darkseid battle was an example of him having prep (hence the armor as well as the plan he was talking about), so all it manages to establish for this debate is how outclassed Batman is when it comes to super powered beings.

Re Evidence 1-4

1: Yeah he had the basis and that is because he FIGURED OUT the basis of the machinery upon observing it.

2: Hank studied in MANY fields. Just read his wiki BIO. In addition, spidey hardly had time to dedicate his life to studies after becoming a super hero, thus even more impressive that someone such as Hank Pym would say that about Spidey.

3: The "energy combo" is what he DEDUCED. Note how he doesn't mention it until AFTER he tinkers around with the machine.

4: My argument for him being smarter boils down to Spidey being able to INSTANTLY show extreme intelligence on par with the greatest minds on the planet despite lack of significant experience or education.

RE PRO's own point on intelligence:

Merely finding errors which one has made is an asburd means to determine intelligence as I could just as well point out some errors Batman has authored.

- The JLU contingency plan which PRO told you about nearly got the whole justice league killed due to the sheer negligence and paranoia of Batman.
-In the plan to control all of the gangs in Gotham which PRO told you about, it was screwed over because of the negligence of a partner whom he had trained and allowed to learn about such a plan in the first place.
- PRO failed to inform you of all the atrocities the Brother eye system caused (which can be read more about on the Maxlord link).

>>> Fighting style:

1) "back at the Antarctic Watchtower Batman ... deduces that the Hyperclan are in fact Martians via their abilities and fear of fire. Using these facts he manages to take down A-Mortal, Tronix, Zenturion and Fluxus." So in other words, Batman had preparation. Dismissed.

2) The point of these links was to establish Spider-Man's speed as I was countering the notion that Batman could peg Spider-Man with his gadgets and martial arts in spite of the fact that Spider-Man is quick enough to dodge bullets AFTER they are fired, quick enough to be rendered invisible by human eyes as well as being capable of dodging SNIPER RIFLE FIRE from ten pros at once. PRO has provided us with no reason to believe that Batman is fast enough to keep up with Spider-Man.

3) Untrue. The black suit was so popular that they had spider-man wear a normal black suit even after losing the alien suit. None of those scans portray the SHORT lived ALIEN suit. More info: http://www.samruby.com...

4) Spider-Man gets hit in battle even with spider sense because he is sometimes either too worried about something or is up against a being too fast for him to keep up with. Neither applies here.

Current Batman:

1) Meant #679

2) Batman is depicted as a psycho path WITHOUT gadgets and without the intelligence of his normal self (hence why Batmite guides him). And the ending to "RIP" has already been CONFIRMED with this being the end of Batman (his death)(see PRO's link on RIP).
Robert_Santurri

Pro

VOTE PRO:
1.) My arguments do not revolve around Batman having preparation. I cited those examples to show Batman's intelligence. My point is that Batman can come up with ingenious plans on the spot, which he has done many times.

2.) Spider-Man may be fast, but Batman himself is also fast. Flash who is the "fastest man alive" even faster then Spider-Man can't find Batman here.
http://img41.exs.cx...
http://img41.exs.cx...
http://img41.exs.cx...

Stealing Kyle's ring without him even realizing:
http://img89.exs.cx...
http://img89.exs.cx...

My opponent seems to be also ignoring his own uploaded picture of Darkseid punching Batman earlier. If Batman can take huge punches from Darkseid of all people then why not Spider-Man?

3.) I admitted that Spider-Man has an uncanny affinity for Science, which is a fact but does not make him smarter then Batman. Batman has relied on his wits and intelligence against some of the most deadly fighters in the world.

4.) http://www.spidervillain.com...
Where was Peter's spider sense when it came to the bomb that triggered when he opened his apartment door? I urge the readers/voters to view each issue from this site and read how Spider-Man loses often and only wins much of the time in the 2ND FIGHT or BEYOND.
http://www.spidervillain.com...
Thus, I believe I have proven my points that Batman in a fight would certainly defeat Spider-Man or least make it a close fight without preparation. I will get more into that later on.

>>>>Strength
2.) Superman does not have the trigger to kill Batman because he is the Boy Scout as I stated before. The same aspect with Spider-Man in many ways. Spider-Man has not shown he would pull such a trigger if it ever came to that point. However, Batman has proven as my opponent's own picture showed to have such a trigger. I highly doubt that Spider-Man would be willing to blow up a planet if it came down to it.

3.) When one wins a war, it does not always have to been through physical means. Batman does not just use brute force like Spider-Man; he also relies on his intelligence. Darkseid knew he was going to lose, however Batman was also toying with Darkseid because he didn't put up a fight as to waste time.
4.) "Ultimately, Killer Croc's criminal lifestyle brought him into conflict with Gotham's guardian the Batman. After a protracted battle, Croc was defeated and sent to Arkham Asylum. - http://batman.wikia.com...
Doesn't look like he loses first there or here:
http://en.wikipedia.org...
So therefore, CON's points are irrelevant while PRO's points stand.

Quick few points on Batman's strength:
Once again, I point out that my opponent's picture of Batman fighting Darkseid who has super strength yet Batman is still able to stand.
Here's Batman coming out of a car crash like nothing happened:
http://img67.imageshack.us...
Although Superman helps him a bit, Batman still carries Supes up a hill:
http://img92.imageshack.us...
Knocking out Killer Croc in one punch:
http://img112.imageshack.us...
Walking out of an explosion like nothing happened because he is the Batman:
http://img63.imageshack.us...
With those, I hope I have proven to you the reader/voter that Batman is no ordinary man, can take an extreme amount of punishment and would be able to go blow to blow in a fight against Spider-Man.

>>> Intelligence
1-2. He had satellite Batcaves made after Bane broke his back so he wouldn't be unprepared. That's what we call intelligence and not technology as they were just caves with supplies.

3.) You asked for examples of Batman intelligence and I gave them. Saying my points are irrelevant in the INTELLIGENCE section is false because they fall under intelligence not strength.

RE Evidence 1-4
1-4.) All the examples you gave were SCIENCE examples. Spider-Man is a genius in the SCIENCE field not the overall field. I've proven with Gwen Stacy and the Civil War that he still lacks common sense in many areas and overall intelligence. Also, his "science" genius skills failed him because if he was so smart, he would have been able to save Gwen Stacy.

RE PRO's own point on intelligence:
1.) Someone mind wipes you, your not going to trust them soon after would you? No, if I were Batman I'd be just as paranoid. I was once again showing he had the intelligence to create such things, while you ignore that and just point to the negatives.

2.) Did I deny these things that Batman created were all good when put into action by the villains? No but they had good intentions.

One other point on Intelligence:
http://img89.exs.cx...
Taking over the Gotham City Police Department's airwaves is no easy task. It's also something I doubt Spider-Man with his science affinity could do easily.

>>>Fighting Style
1.) He deduced this quickly, it's not like he had all day to figure this out. I'm sure Spider-Man thinks about his enemies and what there weaknesses could be at the beginning of a fight.

2.) I have now proven above how Batman will be able to keep up with Spider-Man speed wise. Spider-Man is not faster then the Flash.

3.) My opponent has given no evidence as to those pictures being the regular black costume. Also note, Spider-Man did not wear it for many issues, in fact your own link tells us that due to his wife's fear of the costume and Venom.

4.) I've noted in the link above how Spider-Man's spider sense fails him many times.
http://www.spidervillain.com...

This link shows many times when Spider-Man's spider sense fails him. Also, I think Spider-Man would be worried when fighting Batman.
http://img41.exs.cx...
http://img41.exs.cx...

Putting the fear into someone who isn't afraid of death.

Current Batman:
1.) Accepted
2.) Batman is shown what he would be WITHOUT Bruce Wayne morals stopping Batman from being what he could truly be. Batman is also intelligence as Batman #679 and #680 shows as he figures out The Black Glove's plan. If you also believe that Grant Morrison who is the king of writing stories on the fly and changing things on the fly is going to stick to that is not using common sense. Besides, Grant Morrison is not going to give away the ending in a simple interview. R.I.P has already been delayed due to Grant Morrison changing the story.

Couple points:
My opponent has continued to be in disbelief about Batman's abilities. I point to my arguments above dear reader and I ask you to remember such arguments when going into my final point. I admit I did have whole threads full of such points but I did not want to be unfair to my opponent. So, if you would like more information on Batman's abilities then I advise google.

Final Point:
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury (voters) I leave you with this. This debate was whether Spider-Man could "beat the living daylights" out of Batman. Now my opponent accepted the terms "beating the living daylights" as beating handily. I do not have to prove that Batman even has to win these fights; rather keep it close for a period of time. I believe today that I've not only proven that but Batman has a damn good chance of winning.

Now, I want to thank everyone for reading such a long debate in which LM and myself took the character limit to the max and I'd like to thank LM for such a great debate.

I'd also like to leave you with this video as a thank you, and to remember that this is Spider-Man from the movie Spider-Man 3.

So with that, I thank you once once again for reading and highly urge you to vote for PRO
Debate Round No. 3
96 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by MikeyMike 4 years ago
MikeyMike
Good debate :)

I think Con would have won this debate if not for two reasons. 1. He stated that Spiderman would beat the living daylights out of Batman.
2. He didn't push his point about Plot construction enough.

I truly believe that when it comes to Superhero battles, that the only way to accurately determine the winner is to take plot constructed nonsense out of the equation, and go stat for stat.

If anyone is interested check out my recent SUPERMAN VS. BATMAN debate, it's still up for voting.

http://www.debate.org...
Posted by crispy 5 years ago
crispy
i gotta say, i think batman would take spiderman, and i also think batman is an effing bad-aise, but Logical-Master won this debate.
Posted by CheckHeart 5 years ago
CheckHeart
Woah, I can't believe I read the whole debate.
I agree with CON
....and not only because I like Batman :)
Posted by brokenboy 5 years ago
brokenboy
i agree with CON
Posted by Maikuru 7 years ago
Maikuru
Good job guys, this was a fun one. Sorry I couldn't vote for you in time, L-M!
Posted by NukeTheJuice 7 years ago
NukeTheJuice
batmans a badass.
Posted by imjustme 8 years ago
imjustme
I'm surprised that the debate revolved around the capabilities while not having to contest much about the idea of preparation.
Posted by phasto86 8 years ago
phasto86
yeah, i agree

realistically, if there was a man who had the acrobatic abilities of spiderman and his high aptitude for (virtually) anything he would definately win against some martial artist master without his magic belt
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Oh yeah, and I based that rxn claim on Spider-Man moving faster than bullets.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
You don't have to agree with me on the math. The point I was making was that Spider-Man could hit Batman faster than Batman could even react.

As for Super-Man, the guy can move 10x faster than light speed (remember, he is a comic book character), so there is no doubt that he could move that fast. As for Spider-Man, that's another debate altogether. Unfortunately, I currently don't have the time to contribute to such a debate.
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