The Instigator
Oldfrith
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
TalleyHo
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Resolved: Macs are superior than Dell computers.

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/1/2012 Category: Technology
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,385 times Debate No: 20165
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (18)
Votes (0)

 

Oldfrith

Pro

Resolution says it all. 8,000 characters, 3 days to argue.
1st round is acceptance and beginning arguments, opponent starts.
Burden of proof is upon opponent.
Definitions: mac: A Macbook pro 13" laptop running OS X Lion, mid 2011 model.
Dell: A dell 14" laptop running Windows 7.
superior: better than
all other specs are assumed to be the same.

remember: opponent starts, opponent has burden of proof
TalleyHo

Con

Unfortunately, you're argument is completely arbitrary since the specific hardware conditions have not been stated. Despite that, I will continue on with empirical evidence. As a benchmark, I will examine the performance of the software package: Autodesk Maya 2012 64 Bit and Autodesk Maya for Mac OS. The software details will be found here: http://usa.autodesk.com...

I have used similar devices proposed in your opening arguments, and the PC performs much better by a landslide. The Macbook has trouble navigating through the interface and struggles to maintain an effective work experience. This is due to the limitations of the OS and its optimized performance.

In any case, if performance and durability are the conditions for your argument, the Dell would be the optimum choice.
Debate Round No. 1
Oldfrith

Pro

Unfortunately, you're argument is completely arbitrary since the specific hardware conditions have not been stated.
I actually did state them. look right below the definitions
Despite that, I will continue on with empirical evidence. As a benchmark, I will examine the performance of the software package: Autodesk Maya 2012 64 Bit and Autodesk Maya for Mac OS. The software details will be found here: http://usa.autodesk.com......
I thought it was obvious that the debate was about dell with windows vs. Mac with Lion. I have never used autodesk, obviously giving you an unfair advantage.


I have used similar devices proposed in your opening arguments, and the PC performs much better by a landslide. The Macbook has trouble navigating through the interface and struggles to maintain an effective work experience. This is due to the limitations of the OS and its optimized performance.

This is all relating to his autodesk takeover, so I will say this is a bit irrelevent.

However, I will change the debate (if my opponent accepts) to make the burden of proof shared.

On to my contentions!
-------------------------------------
  1. Malware: this is an argument that comes up in every mac vs. pc debate I have read, so this is nothing knew. However, I would like to state that there are very few viruses out there for the mac. My opponent will say that there are still some, but a quick google search will allowed me to find out the new virus that 6 months. Note that I am not saying that macs don't get viruses, I'm simply stating that they are few and far between, making macs obviously superior in this regard. However, since there are fewer viruses for the mac, macs are obviously superior in this regard
  2. Hardware: if you have a dell laptop in front of you right now, give it a little (not major!) back and forth shake. likely, your screen is shaking back and forth a large amount. Macs don't do that, as it is part of the unibody enclosure. There is a large difference in the screen as well. Macs have a glass screen cover, while dells have plastic. Macs are made of strong metal, dells are plastic. Macs have a 5" trackpad with multitouch, dells have a 3.5". Macs are obviously superior in this regard
  3. Cost: now, it is true that a mac i more expensive, at first glance, than a dell. But lets take a look at what extra you're paying for when you get a mac:
    1. Metal unibody enclosure
    2. Glass screen
    3. Superior operating system (more on that later)
    4. Less expensive upgrades
  4. OS upgrade: simple comparison here. Mac OS Lion costs $30 PER APPLE ACCOUNT (if you have two, even a hundred macs, it still costs $30) [2]. Macs are obviously superior in this regard
  5. Official office costs: Mac office costs $60 per apple account [2]. This includes a word processor, a spreadsheet tool, and a slideshow maker. Microsoft office costs $120 FOR ONE COMPUTER [1]. Macs are obviously superior in this regard.

I await my opponents arguments

TalleyHo

Con

You have clearly made your argument based on your own preferences as opposed to performance. And to tell you the truth your understanding of hardware performance is quite limited. You don't understand how performance on computers are evaluated, you need a benchmark. Autodesk Maya is a great benchmark because it requires heavy usage of RAM,CPU, and GPU. Do you know what that means? I can explain to you further if you would like? Anyways, Macs perform below average because they aren't designed for heavy duty performance. If you're an everyday computer user(emails, Facebook, surfing) Macs are perfect for you. On top of that, parts for pcs are much cheaper and newer upgrades are available faster. Upgrade costs are higher for Macs if you need a technician, otherwise they are about the same if you do it yourself. Though you have to make sure that the mac is is compatible with the hardware.
Debate Round No. 2
Oldfrith

Pro

My opponent tries to employ the old ad hominem fallacy here by questioning my knowledge, as opposed to attacking my arguments in and of themselves. BtW, just to prove I'm not an idiot
RAM- Random Access memory
CPU- Central processing unit
GPU- Graphics processing unit
So, does that make me, in your eyes, someone who is "qualified" for this debate?

Macs perform below average because they aren't designed for heavy duty performance.
Define "Heavy Duty Performance"

Upgrade costs are higher for Macs if you need a technician, otherwise they are about the same if you do it yourself.
I agree, but since you provided no actual numbers.... Unlike me, who showed that software upgrades are iNCREDIBLY cheaper on the mac.

On top of that, parts for pcs are much cheaper and newer upgrades are available faster.
Numbers please. And upgrades are available faster is quite irrelevant, as an upgrade in RAM and other components (which is what i assume you're talking about) come out AT THE SAME TIME, because these things are simply PC-related things.

You have clearly made your argument based on your own preferences as opposed to performance.
Seeing as I never said performance specifically in the parameters for the debate... This is merely a small part. And anyways, performance is based upon processor speed, among other factors, and seeing as I said that all specs are the same....

you need a benchmark.
This is a debate on the direct comparison of Macs to dells. NOT which one does better when running a program I have no access to the full version of.

BTW: arguments my opponent dropped
-Malware
-Upgrade costs (software)
- Hardware
TalleyHo

Con

"Heavy duty performance":
A computer system or program that requires heavy usage of GPU, CPU, and RAM. Please think critically about what that means because in order for us to continue, this should already be understood by both parties. I'm afraid that if you've never used that term, we've already hit a roadblock.

I'm going to break this down because you're getting yourself mixed up:

Lesson 1:
You need a benchmark to examine performance when comparing hardware, otherwise you will never know specifically what setup performs better.I know this is very new to you, so I will explain it fully this time.
- here is an example of a GPU benchmark chart:
http://www.tomshardware.com...

Autodesk Maya is the highest benchmark that I have personally encountered. It should run with both machines referenced in your argument. That is why I used it. If you cannot run your Mac with it, then I'm afraid our debate is over by default.

Lesson 2:
Upgrading Machines:

Upgrading a Mac is quite complicated and can be a bit expensive for many reasons.
Macs utilize hardware that is specific to the OS- Lets just say you wanted to upgrade your ram. You first have to find out if your mac is even up-gradable. This is because the prospective hardware may not be supported by the OS. If it is up-gradable, most people will go through Applecare and pay fees on top of the overpriced hardware. This service is a bit like Best Buy's Geek Squad. If you want to do it on your own its very possible, but again you must research and make sure that the upgrade is compatible with your system and OS.

Read here for a step by step list on upgrading Macs:
http://mac.appstorm.net...

Lesson 3:
Mac upgrades lag behind PCs:

This is a pretty known fact for most computer savvy individuals. The Intel line of i7 processors were introduced in 2008, and became mainstream for PC enthusiasts not too long afterwards. Macs didn't receive their first pre-built i7 iMac until this time last year.

Here's more about the i7
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Here's the iMac development timeline:
http://upload.wikimedia.org...

That's the lesson I hope this makes sense, now lets get back to debating.

Now I'll address the arguments that I "dropped"

1. Malware - I'd I agree this is a downside of using the Windows OS, but a simple and free virus scanner will prevent any problems. I've had my PC for two years now, and I've never had a Trojan.

2. Upgrade Costs - System updates? Service packs? Those are free. If you're talking about upgrading from Windows Vista to 7, then the only reason you would need to install a new OS is if you were switching from a 32bit to 64bit, otherwise you're meant to keep the same operating system.

3. Hardware - Refer to my lesson

I'm going to ask you to make your intentions more clear. If you're evaluating the two machines not based on their performance, then what are we debating? If you're talking about screens and cases then that's a completely different argument. Macbook Pros cost as much as they do because of their aesthetics, not their performance.

You're obviously an everyday computer user, who only requires a machine for personal use like writing documents or checking emails. If that is the case, then almost any machine will suit your needs. If you like Mac's because they are pretty to you, then you shouldn't have opened this up for debate.
Debate Round No. 3
Oldfrith

Pro


You're obviously an everyday computer user, who only requires a machine for personal use like writing documents or checking emails. If that is the case, then almost any machine will suit your needs. If you like Mac's because they are pretty to you, then you shouldn't have opened this up for debate.


So apparently I have a stalker.... NOT! Would you call having the FREE Mac developer platform, Xcode, running making me an "idiot" who needs lessons in debating?



1. Malware - I'd I agree this is a downside of using the Windows OS, but a simple and free virus scanner will prevent any problems. I've had my PC for two years now, and I've never had a Trojan.


I have never stated that we are debating about our own machines, only about the hardware and software.



2. Upgrade Costs - System updates? Service packs? Those are free. If you're talking about upgrading from Windows Vista to 7, then the only reason you would need to install a new OS is if you were switching from a 32bit to 64bit, otherwise you're meant to keep the same operating system.


I'm not talking aobut those to things... Those are obviously free (I've used a dell too, person who thinks I'm an idiot). And you have also not talked about the office costs, another contention you dropped.



I'm going to ask you to make your intentions more clear. If you're evaluating the two machines not based on their performance, then what are we debating? If you're talking about screens and cases then that's a completely different argument. Macbook Pros cost as much as they do because of their aesthetics, not their performance.


As I have already stated for two rounds, both of which have pointed you to the specs at the top... Which it is apparent to me that you have not yet read, since you keep insisting that this debate is about a benchmark only you have access to and talking about the speeds of it, however, The speeds are the same for both computers. This was stated in the opening definitions. We are debating about the aesthetics, yes, but also which one is superior, which will be defined as: higher in use, better with price, and a better choice for the average consumer.



However, since you have asked for a benchmark, I will start a debate in which we compare a new benchmark: xCode! A program that only I have access to. Seems fair, now doesn’t it? You come in with an arbitrary definition of a thing, make it a giant program that costs, well, lots, and likely is only usable if you have access to a server if my knowledge of CAD software is accurate. So, lets make it xCode. I’m sure you can get it on your PC. You just have to install Lion, like we install Windows 7 on Macs. Oh Wait! Windows doesn’t do that. (another argument by the way)



I’ve already put this up, but I wanted to go over this:


If you like Mac's because they are pretty to you,


Are you calling me a girl?



Lesson 1:


You need a benchmark to examine performance when comparing hardware, otherwise you will never know specifically what setup performs better.I know this is very new to you, so I will explain it fully this time.


- here is an example of a GPU benchmark chart:


I went to the site listed. All it was doing is compare different graphics cards, which would be the same in both computers, as listed in my opening definitions, which you would know if you either a) read what the source was about, or b) read the opening definitions.


Neutral contention.



Autodesk Maya is the highest benchmark that I have personally encountered. It should run with both machines referenced in your argument. That is why I used it. If you cannot run your Mac with it, then I'm afraid our debate is over by default.


Since this is put with “lesson 1” it goes with “lesson 1’s” Neutral contention.



Lesson 2:


Upgrading Machines:



Upgrading a Mac is quite complicated and can be a bit expensive for many reasons.


Macs utilize hardware that is specific to the OS- Lets just say you wanted to upgrade your ram. You first have to find out if your mac is even up-gradable. This is because the prospective hardware may not be supported by the OS. If it is up-gradable, most people will go through Applecare and pay fees on top of the overpriced hardware. This service is a bit like Best Buy's Geek Squad. If you want to do it on your own its very possible, but again you must research and make sure that the upgrade is compatible with your system and OS.



This is a lot about compatibility, and I would like to say, that applies to Dells too. And anyways, it’s pretty hard to upgrade a laptop. Neither Macs not Dells are truly designed for it. Simply because the design of a laptop is to shove as much “stuff” into a machine as possible. Neutral.



I also read the site on upgrading. I have to say, it’s the same basic steps to upgrade a dell as well. Neutral again.



Lesson 3:


Mac upgrades lag behind PCs:



This is a pretty known fact for most computer savvy individuals. The Intel line of i7 processors were introduced in 2008, and became mainstream for PC enthusiasts not too long afterwards. Macs didn't receive their first pre-built i7 iMac until this time last year.


I must concede to this. For once, My opponent provides real FACTS instead of neutral arguments that don’t help him.



Here's more about the i7


http://en.wikipedia.org......



Here's the iMac development timeline:


http://upload.wikimedia.org......



That's the lesson I hope this makes sense, now lets get back to debating.


Do you realize how rude that is? Telling your opponent he’s “stupid?” In debate, the two opponents are regarded as equals, only their contentions are looked at. All of these contentions marked “lessons” are all ad hominem fallacy and should be treated as such. Incorrect.



Now I'll address the arguments that I "dropped"


True fact. He did drop them.


TalleyHo

Con

TalleyHo forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by 1dustpelt 5 years ago
1dustpelt
But HP is superior to them all!
Posted by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
he was banned :'( http://www.debate.org...
Posted by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
I think he was banned by accident as innomen thought he was my multi, but we never even used the same computer
Posted by Oldfrith 5 years ago
Oldfrith
PM me his username if he does. I like this topic.
Posted by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
oh I forgot about this lol.

@oldfrith

lol... I know nothing about computers, I am on a mac. My friend has a DDO account, if he becomes active debate him computers is his thing.
Posted by Oldfrith 5 years ago
Oldfrith
16K.

Because I know if I lose to you, it's not because I'm a bad debater. It just reaffirms your good debating skills
Posted by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
Talley Ho, what I said is factual, lol.

Old frith; why me?
Posted by Oldfrith 5 years ago
Oldfrith
People like this irk me. 16KAdams, when would be a good time to debate this with you? I'd honestly be interested in seeing if I could beat you.
Posted by Oldfrith 5 years ago
Oldfrith
Specific hardware specs have been defined. I stated: All other specs are the same right after the definitions. Would you rather me post up definite specs in the comments, and if so, what kind?
Posted by Oldfrith 5 years ago
Oldfrith
TalleyHo, we aren't debating the use of any specific software! We are debating whether Macintosh computers are better than Dell computers! Not Autodesk Performance!
No votes have been placed for this debate.