The Instigator
royalpaladin
Pro (for)
Winning
12 Points
The Contender
Branden
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Resolved: Nazism is not a far-left ideology

Do you like this debate?NoYes+3
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
royalpaladin
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/12/2012 Category: Politics
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,222 times Debate No: 20332
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (64)
Votes (3)

 

royalpaladin

Pro

First round is acceptance only. In order to win this round, the Con must prove that Nazism is far-left based on two factors: economic factors and social factors. If the Con fails to fulfill this burden, default Pro. In addition, I only need to disprove one out of the two in order to win the round. If Nazism turns out to be anywhere on the scale from leftist (but not far-left) to far-right, I win the round.

The conservative voting block, which consists of the following individuals, may not vote on this debate. Any voting by these individuals will be considered a votebomb.
1. 16kadams
2. OberHerr
3. LordKnukle
4. jimtimmy

Of course, any one of these individuals is free to accept the debate, but by doing so he agrees that none of his friends may vote on the debate.

No new arguments may be presented in the final round; if they are, then the side that presents them automatically loses all seven points.

By accepting the debate, Con accepts all of these terms and conditions.

Good luck.
Branden

Con

Hello,

I would like to thank you for accepting me to participate in this debate.

I would just like to justify your victory of this argument. You stated that you win by proving Naziism is far-right, and I win by proving it is far-left. However, you stated that even if I prove it is left, as long as it is not far-left I lose. I think this is unfair that even if you don't prove that it is far-right you still have a higher chance of winning by default Even if I make an argument that Naziism is more left than right, you will still win by default because it would not be far-left. This argument is highly biased and leaned towards your victory.

To start off with the social aspect of the ideology. As the general population knows, National Socialism involves the promoting of racial eugenics, and antisemitism. Racial eugenics isn't assigned to a specific part of the spectrum. It can be easily argued that it is politically right because it is demoting other races of humans, such as the Jews. This is could be argued to be a traditionalist ideology, which is right, but it is left because it is promoting social change. This aspect is more for social change rather than tradition leading me to believe this was a far-left quality of the party, since it was quite extreme.

As for economics go, the economic policy of Naziism is based off of Fascism, but fascism was declared Syncretic by the Doctrine of Fascism. "Fascism was founded during World War I by Italian national syndicalists who combined left-wing and right-wing political views" - (Doctrine of Fascism)(1). The Nazi Party and Nazism were presented by Hitler and other proponents as being neither left-wing nor right-wing but Syncretic" - (Adolf Hitler, paraphrased quotation). The Nazi policy was that the economy was almost completely controlled by the state, which is very left. However, these means of production that were controlled by the state were privately owned. This combines far-left economics with right-wing economics. However, it was explicitly stated(1) in the Doctrine of Fascism that it is Syncretic, meaning it does not fit onto the left or right end of the political spectrum.

To conclude my argument, the social policy of the Naziism is far-left because it promotes strong social change by promoting racial eugenics and promoting racial supremacy. The Nazi economic policy is neither left, nor right, but Synretic. It does not fall left or right due to combinations of left and right economics aspects.
Debate Round No. 1
royalpaladin

Pro

Framework

There are two reasons to accept my burdens analysis.


The first is a textual link to the resolution. If Nazism proves to be at any point on the spectrum besides far-left, then it is not far-left and the resolution is true. It does not matter is Nazism is moderate, far-right, right-winged, or even left-winged: as long as Nazism is not far-left, then according to the resolution, I win.


The second reason is contextual. As the instigator of the debate, I have the right to set burdens as I please. This was something that I made clear when I noted that anybody who accepted the debate accepted the terms and conditions that I set for it. I did not force my opponent to accept the debate; that was his choice, not mine. If he did not agree with the burdens that I had the right to set, then he should not have accepted the challenge.


Case

My only burden is to prove that Nazism is not a far-left ideology. Far-left is defined as "the highest degree of leftist positions among left-wing politics." (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org...) Left-winged politics traditionally pushes for egalitarianism, and far-left positions advocate immediate, radical fundamental change to push for a classless, egalitarian society. (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org...). Far-left politics is distinct from far-right politics, which involves, ". . . anti-immigration and anti-integration stances towards groups that are deemed inferior and undesirable.[1] At the most extreme, far-right movements have pursued oppression and genocide against groups of people on the basis of their alleged inferiority.[2] Far right politics commonly includes authoritarianism, nativism, racism and xenophobia" (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org...). Thus, far-left politics pushes for equality while far-right politics stands against it.

My sole contention is that Nazism is more in line with a far-right movement than a far-left movement.
First, Nazism pursued oppression and genocide on the basis of alleged inferiority. Because the Nazis conducted ethnic cleansing against Jewish individuals and members of non-Aryan races, it perpetrated genocide against a group that it deemed inferior. In addition, Nazism was a violent, anti-communist and anti-leftist movement. "Nazism was founded out of elements of the far-right racist völkisch German nationalist movement and the violent anti-communist Freikorps paramilitary culture that fought against the uprisings of communist revolutionaries in post-World War I Germany.[6] The ideology was developed first by Anton Drexler and then Adolf Hitler as a means to draw workers away from communism and into völkisch nationalism.[7] Initially Nazi political strategy focused on anti-big business, anti-bourgeois, and anti-capitalist rhetoric, though such aspects were later downplayed in the 1930s to gain the support from industrial owners for the Nazis; focus was shifted to anti-Semitic and anti-Marxist themes." Moreover, leftist mvoements aruge against property rights and promote collectivism, which was rejected by Nazism. "Nazism promoted an economic system that supported a stratified economy with classes based on merit and talent while rejecting universal egalitarianism, retaining private property, freedom of contract, and promoted the creation of national solidarity that would transcend class distinction.[15][16] The Nazis' official economic policies were designed to exclusively benefit Aryans while deliberately excluding non-Aryans. In Nazi Germany and its controlled territories during World War II, the Nazis supported völkisch equality that officially ascribed collective racial equality of opportunity, equality before the law, and full legal rights to those able people of German blood or related Aryan blood but deliberately excluded people outside of this definition who were regarded as inferior and rejected the conception of universal equality of individuals." (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org...).


Negative Case

The entirety of his first contention rests on the idea that social change is far-left. The problem with this analysis is that there is a distinction between progressive social change and regressive social change. Progressive social change, or leftist social change, advocates advancing towards an egalitarian, classless society in which everyone is absolutely equal. Regressive social change, which is in line with far-right politics, however, advocates returning to a glorious era of the past. The Nazis were clearly advocating regressive social change, as demonstrated by the fact that Hitler resurrected the Aryan religion, argued that Germany had fallen from grace because of outsiders and the Jews, that the some races were inferior to others and deserved to be subjugated. All of this is antithetical to far-left beliefs.

I have three responses to his second contention. First, turn the fascism argument because that simply means that Nazism is neither far-right nor far-left. If it is not far-left, then I win the round based on the burdens that I clearly established when I instigated the debate. Second, he is assuming that state control of economy means that a movement is far-left. The problem with this analysis is that before capitalism, or modern conservatism, state-control of the economy was generally common in the form of mercantilism. This means that state-control of the economy is not necessarily a left-winged argument because regression can also involve state control of the economy. Finally, extend the in-case argument that Nazism created a society based on economic classes that depended on merit, private property, and freedom of contracts. This proves that Nazism allowed for a more capitalist system than a Marxist system of controlling the means of production in order to advance equality.
Branden

Con

Branden forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
royalpaladin

Pro

My opponent dropped all of my arguments. Please extend them.
Branden

Con

Branden forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
royalpaladin

Pro

Vote pro based on the forfeits and the dropped argument that Nazi economic policies permitted private property, freedom of contracts, etc., which is indicative of capitalism and not socialism.
Branden

Con

Branden forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
64 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
Funny conduct paladin for FF

Sources pro

Arguments royal as they where logical sourced, and made sense

Good non official vote
Posted by Gileandos 5 years ago
Gileandos
Again, Roy is spot on. Nationalism can not be defined as far right.
Posted by Branden 5 years ago
Branden
Stalin, and North Korea were conservatives. They had a Communist economy, but many conservative policies, such as the strong military and lack of social change. It's like saying I'm a Capitalist, but I rule as a Liberal.
Posted by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
I'm curious why people think that extreme nationalism is associated with the far right. All the leftist authoritarian regimes (Stalin and later Soviet rulers. Mao, North Korea, North Vietnam) use nationalism as part of the strategy of maintaining power. The sales pitch is that only the authoritarian rulers are strong enough to fight off evil foreign powers and "corrupt" dissidents within.
Posted by Branden 5 years ago
Branden
You can have a constitution in a dictatorship. Dictators in the past have put this in because they realize they will most likely go corrupt. To eliminate this they regulate themselves with a constitution.
Posted by THEBOMB 5 years ago
THEBOMB
"Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely" That's why a dictatorship does not work.
Posted by Branden 5 years ago
Branden
An ideology does not changed based on how you implement it. The theory stays the same. It's like saying dictatorship doesn't work because a few dictators abused human ights therefore all dictators abuse human rights.
Posted by Greyparrot 5 years ago
Greyparrot
I see a flaw in the resolution... Nazism may indeed be left if you take it for what it theoretically stood for rather than what was actually implemented as fascism.
Posted by Branden 5 years ago
Branden
It just took me a while to get all the information together. I will finish this argument.
Posted by OberHerr 5 years ago
OberHerr
I sense Branden is not going to even post an argument. *Sigh* Well, it appears as though RP will win. :(
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by thett3 5 years ago
thett3
royalpaladinBrandenTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Obvious vote is obvious. I dont see how anyone could argue that Nazism was far left anyway.
Vote Placed by ConservativePolitico 5 years ago
ConservativePolitico
royalpaladinBrandenTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: -sigh- He could have won this debate if he stuck too it...
Vote Placed by vmpire321 5 years ago
vmpire321
royalpaladinBrandenTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeits Better reasoning