The Instigator
NOK_Domination
Pro (for)
Losing
21 Points
The Contender
dvhoose
Con (against)
Winning
26 Points

Resolved: Patriotism should be taught to children in school.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 7 votes the winner is...
dvhoose
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/4/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,507 times Debate No: 7684
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (7)

 

NOK_Domination

Pro

I'll start by saying you are the man dvhoose. I love golf and the Chiefs are awesome.

Ok defining patriotism. This is my definition, but if you find an actual dictionary one, please feel free to use it.

Patriotism - Pride in your country.

So I believe pride in ones country should be taught in schools. As it is patriotism is already taught. Every morning the pledge of allegiance is recited. History classes are taught with emphasis on America and a lot of shady events in the past are hidden. So in status quo patriotism is taught.

Almost every country has had some sort of revolt to overthrow the government. The United States has yet to have that. Yes the Civil War was that, but it was more about the south seceding than taking over. Nonetheless that was before schools taught patriotism. Back then schools were still highly undeveloped. Patriotism avoids governmental revolts which means less death and more stability. Those are good things. Patriotism being taught is a good thing. That is all I'll say for this round.
dvhoose

Con

Haha, thank you NOK_Domination. Maybe the Chiefs can get something going this year... :)

Patriotism- devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty. [1]

Patriotism should NOT be taught in schools. I'll agree that patriotism is taught in schools, and everything my opponent provided are great examples of how patriotism is taught. To examine said examples:

1) Pledge of Allegiance: I have no problem with this one.

2) History with an emphasis on America: This is a bad thing. It leads to small mindedness and an overall misunderstanding of the world, or a complete lack of understanding of the world. Its practical purpose is this: The American is widely misinformed on many of the stances. If Americans better understood the world around them, they wouldn't be scared as easily by the media and politicians (who actually study this stuff) wouldn't have the ability to push the public around so easily.

Case in point: post-9/11. Was it a terrible attack? Yes. But the American public seemed to glance over the fact that those were Muslim Extremists! All Muslims don't behave that way, and yet we stereotyped them in the blink of an eye. We did the same thing post-Pearl Harbor with the Japanese and Japanese-Americans, post-WWI with the Bolshevik movement, and the list goes on and on.

3) A lot of shady events in the past are hidden: Once again, a bad thing for the U.S. This one-sided view of the world makes it appear to the general public that America has always acted in the best possible way. Our country is moral, right? I mean, we fought a whole war over ending slavery! <-- Proof of another misconception. Slavery was only one factor in the war, and slavery wasn't ended for moral reasons. Economies were a big part in the war. The industrial North didn't need slaves, while the agricultural South heavily depended on them. Those in the North feared that they're jobs might be lost to slaves if slavery was allowed nationwide... after all, why pay someone when you could have it done for free (the basic idea of a capitalist economy...). Slavery wasn't ended for moral reasons, it was ended out of fear. Also, wecan't ignore an ever increasing tensions between slave vs. free states and their roles in Congress. With every new territory came a new fight over how one side had more representation. Bleeding Kansas is a great example of this. [2]

And then my opponent states that patriotism prevents wars. I have evidence that states otherwise.

"If an American wishes the preferential grandeur and well-being of America above all other nations, and the same is desired for his state by an Englishman, and a Russian, and a Turk, and a Dutchman, and an Abyssinian, and a citizen of Venezuela and of the Transvaal, and an Armenian, and a Pole, and a Bohemian, and all of them are convinced that these desires need not only not be concealed or repressed, but should be a matter of pride and be developed in themselves and in others; and if the greatness and well-being of one country or nation cannot be obtained except to the detriment of another nation, frequently of many countries and nations—how can war be avoided?"

If everyone from every nation decided that they're country was the best, and that their country could be better with, say, resources from another country... then in "devoted support" (see definition) they would need to acquire said resources. Who would dare say that the country should be held back!

Patriotism leads to the justification of previous wrongs, and a population determined to argue that said wrongs were necessary. It leads to an arrogant, misinformed country, easily persuaded by those who understand the facts. A population quick to believe that others are acting solely to bring us down, regardless of whether they're extremists or not.

With that I'll close, and turn the floor back over to my opponent. I wish NOK_Domination luck, and look forward to his response.

--SOURCES--
[1] http://dictionary.reference.com...
[2] http://jc-schools.net...
[3] http://www.everlutionary.net...
Debate Round No. 1
NOK_Domination

Pro

Thank you for the definition of patriotism.

1) Pledge of Allegiance

- This is something my opponent doesn't mind. Even if every other kind of "patriotism" currently being taught is bad and should be done away, this remains. The resolution doesn't state how much patriotism should be taught. Maybe not all forms of patriotism should be, but it's not asking the amount of patriotism being taught. If the pledge of allegiance is in schools then patriotism is taught. If the pledge of allegiance is good then patriotism should be taught. I really don't need to defend any other contention if this is a good thing, but I will do so in order to clear up some of my opponents arguments I perceive as misconceptions.

2) History with an emphasis on America

- It's foolish to believe that politicians can push people around with their knowledge of past history. They push us around with the vast knowledge of the past 20 years. Politicians don't run campaigns based on how they'd change what Abraham Lincoln did over 100 years ago. History teaches us up to about the Cold War. Most history classes don't have events that have happened in the last 20 years in any kind of detail. Therefore what politicians run campaigns on and what the media talks about is not jaded by the emphasis of America in history classes. Americas involvement in the Philippines and in Latin America are usually jaded to make it seem that America was right. This teaches loyalty and helps deter any kind of uprising. It is not a reason as to why politicians push us around.

The 9/11 case is vividly accurate. HOWEVER, not taught in school. Everything people think about that is from the media, not history class. I'm sure with time 9/11 will be taught in school, but also with time the stereotype will go away, probably not completely, but to an extent. During WWII most Americans thought every German was a NAZI. Do we think that anymore? We may joke around about it, but realistically we know that Germans aren't all Jew killing Nazis. Anyway, this is a case of the media portraying patriotism, not schools, so this example is really off topic considering the resolution.

3) A lot of shady things are hidden

- I never really meant for this to aid my case. I just wanted to show that patriotism is part of status quo. I'm going to drop this. Patriotism should be taught in schools, but not like this. There are other ways in which patriotism should be taught.

Civil War: You say that the Civil War was oversimplified then oversimplify it yourself. It was about a lot of things, including states rights. It's ignorant to say that it wasn't about morality. There were definitely people that passionately hated slavery and the treatment of fellow people. There were definitely people with other motives and it was a very complex war.

Japanese: My opponent made a reference to this in 2. It belongs more so to this topic. After pearl harbor the Japs were forced to live in little camps and that is often hidden in history classes.

Overall I don't like that America does this and it definitely shouldn't be done. There are other ways to teach patriotism, such as the pledge of allegiance.

4) Patriotism prevents rebellions

- I stated that patriotism suppresses rebellions, not wars with other countries. Furthermore, there are a lot of "ifs" in the quote. Just because patriotism is taught, does not mean people don't have a brain. Yes, taking over the world would benefit a country, but is it realistic? People have a brain and compassion for other people. If a country does go to war, then patriotism supports that war, but people do not start wars as a result of patriotism. Wars cost lives and money, which isn't a good thing for a nation. Patriotism doesn't teach war. Even so the USA has no need to attack another country. Mexico and Canada are the only countries that are feasible to attack and there's no need for that. Also if people are prideful in their nation, it can create competition that is good for each nation. Take example Russia and USA. The race to space was about pride in ones country and led to great development.

In the end patriotism leads to pride in your nation and less anti-government uprisings. Empires crumble from within. Patriotism keeps this from happening.
dvhoose

Con

Before attacking the points presented, I'd like to compliment my opponent on a well written rebuttal...

1) Pledge of Allegiance

The pledge of allegiance... While it's words may harbor a patriotic meaning, I ask how many students actually believe in what it says. Do you honestly believe a kindergardener understands the meaning of the Pledge? I doubt it. Instead, they recite it because they're forced too. I'm not sure about anywhere else, but my school district stopped saying the pledge at 5th grade. If we consider it patriotism, it's rather insignificant.

2) History with an emphasis on America

Once again, I'm not sure about any other class, but our American History class is getting into the 9/11 attacks and other relatively current events. But the point stands. We've created an almost irreversible trend! By skewing our knowledge of history now, we ensure that it gets written into the history books in a skewed manner and continue to detract from the education of the generations that will come after mine.

I already covered the fact that my class is covering 9/11... I'm not sure about any other class. But my opponent brings up another great point. We've almost caught ourselves in a Catch 22. We can't break free from the media's influence unless we understand more about the people being discriminated against, however we can't learn more about the people being discriminated against as long as the media is trying to cause a rebellion.

This patriotism being taught in schools is widely responsible for many political uprisings. I'd go so far as to say Hitler is a prime example (and it's taught in history classes). Post WWI the U.S. completely limited anything Germany could do. Sick of the poverty, Hitler stepped to power by murdering many politicians, and claiming he had to do so for the good of the German state. He rallied most of an entire nation to commit THE most heinous crime the Earth has ever seen... all in the name of patriotism ("The good of the German state").

3) A lot of shady things are hidden

Dropped, please flow CON

4) Patriotism prevents rebellions

The 'if's' in that quote only establish that each country's population is loyal to their country and that to better one country would worsen another one. Teaching patriotism ensures that people are loyal to their country, and wars are happening as we speak (well... type). Hitler tried to take over the world, and he only had the support he did because he was a gifted orator and he made people feel proud about what Germany could be.

Using Russia (well, then Soviet Union) and the USA as an example: Take the Cold War... definitely not a good time for anyone. The two superpowers of the world, locked in battle. What would it have taken to make the Cold War a hot war. Tensions were already high between the Communist Soviet Union and Democratic United States. China had just become Communist and were protecting their interests in Korea. The U.S. almost had Korea completely democratic, but General Douglas MacArthur decided to push the limits. Our practices of containment were failing at every point possible, and the U.S. was afraid Russia would attempt a takeover. NATO and the Warsaw Pact were in full swing; the fate of the world hung in the balance between the U.S. and the Soviet Union. It wouldn't have taken much to trigger a hot war. Just remember the nuclear drills students had to do then.

Patriotism can lead to an arrogance-like state, where one country thinks it's infallible. This leads to nasty conflicts that usually hurt all involved.
Debate Round No. 2
NOK_Domination

Pro

1) Pledge
- As little kids we're taught things. A lot of things we may not understand. Do you think little kids understand most of the things they are taught? Probably not. The fact is that it is taught and it is patriotic. If you agree with it then you agree patriotism should be taught.

2) History class
I'm going to split his 3 paragraphs into a, b, and c.

a) History classes don't teach that towelheads flew into our towels and that all Muslims are terrorists. That's a stereotype made in the media, therefore history classes don't teach stereotypes. Status quo teaches history with an emphasis on America. They don't teach incredibly skewed history. You're trying to say patriotism skews history which is false.

b) This is all about the media and has nothing to do with school. Once again the media skews things and the media has nothing to do with the resolution.

c) I would be hard pressed to believe schools in Germany taught Hitler to do that. Patriotism doesn't teach you to hate the government, which Hitler did.

3) Shady
- I did drop this, but it's really irrrelevant. I don't have to back every form of patriotism taught, just the fact that it should be taught. This shouldn't be taught, but there are other forms, such as the pledge that should be.

4) Prevents rebellions
- Your arguments in this topic don't deal with the topic. In the cold war people rallied for their country against a common enemy. Not a rebellion. Hitler started a rebellion in Germany while not being taught patriotism. Perhaps if he was prideful in the government it wouldn't have happened. Wars are inevitable. They will happen no matter what people do. But a rebellion is more dangerous than a war because it takes place in the homeland. Countries don't attack each other because they're prideful in their nation. Iraq war - America tried to oust a dictator and end terrorism. Gaza - being fought over relligion, not patriotism.

I really only have to show that one form of patriotism should be taught in order to fulfill the resolution. I did that with the pledge of allegiance. Everything else is just bonus. Patriotism stops rebellions and protects the homeland. Good luck and nice debating you dvhoose. Hopefully the Chiefs can veer from their losing ways this season!
dvhoose

Con

1) Pledge

My opponent contends that although they may not understand things we teach, it's still taught and since the pledge is patriotic, then we are teaching patriotism. However, teaching is communication... it requires one person to speak and one (or more) person/people to listen. What if teacher in your school started speaking German? If you don't understand German, it doesn't matter what they're saying, you aren't learning, and, for all intensive purposes, they aren't teaching. They aren't presenting the information you need to know in a way that you can understand it. Same way with the pledge. Unless the people actually understand what it means, it loses all value as a teaching and becomes simply a reciting at the beginning of each day.

2) History class

a) Alright, history classes don't teach that all Muslims are terrorists... but you did say that the media does. The media is reporting history (it's already happened) and it's being taught to children who attend school. When we teach this type of patriotism to children in school, we're reinforcing false ideas and justifying a lot of actions that maybe we should question, or at least analyze to understand more about why things are the way they are now. We've made a lot of mistakes as a nation, but skewing them to look less bad on the U.S. only makes it worse. We're basically advocating the hiding of flaws, or distorting the truth to make ourselves look better.

b) The media has lots to do with the resolution. The general public gets many ideas from the media. These are passed, directly or indirectly, into the ideas of many school-age children. If these ideas promote patriotism (which many do) then they promote arrogance and several other ideas that would otherwise have negative connotations.

c) What the schools in Germany taught Hitler is irrelevant. Did Hitler have a strong sense of pride in his country? Yes! (well... more of what it COULD be... but he was still proud). Mussolini had similar feelings for Italy. Both were fascist dictators; both committed atrocities; both are prime examples of how patriotism is bad for a country.

3) Shady

I wasn't trying to imply anything by re-iterating that you dropped this... I did that for my sake; so I knew I covered all aspects of your speech.

4) Prevents rebellion

I may have regressed a little when I was talking about this... I'll concede that. But everything still links back to loyalty. And how different is loyalty in, say, religion then to loyalty in a nation. They're almost the same idea; most of it directly applies to the debate. Cold war was a rally against a perceived enemy (patriotism). Hitler's rebellion had patriotic views. He was tired of his government being apathetic and sought to change it. He was loyal to his country and sought only to better it. Now, his actions were completely immoral and we can't forget he committed the biggest atrocity the world has ever seen (and hopefully will ever see), but he did look to improve Germany (patriotism). The Iraq War "tried to oust a dictator and end terrorism" in the hopes of making the American public feel more at ease... it's support came from those loyal to America. Gaza is loyalty to religion, not nation. I'll concede that.

When one practices patriotism (devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty) [def from R1], and someone comes and threatens said country, support and defense mean an instant conflict. If an unpatriotic citizen gets enough followers and a patriotic citizen gets enough followers, you've got a rebellion. It's this devotion that closes our minds and makes the population more able to be swayed by emotions and less by facts. This is why patriotism is bad.

Patriotism brings about many conflicts and shouldn't be taught to today's children.

Good look to you too, and a great debate as well. I really hope the Chiefs can get something going this season... maybe even a Superbowl appearance :)
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by gonovice 7 years ago
gonovice
Thanks...finally someone agrees with me on this site...shocking!!
Posted by dvhoose 7 years ago
dvhoose
@Lazy:

Personally, I'm pro patriotism... However in this debate, I was assigned the CON position as part of a tournament. I'm able to see both sides and argue accordingly, but I still believe patriotism has a net good.

Where does political correctness come in?

@debatefan01:

I'm sorry you feel that way and have to wonder if you even read the debate...

@gonovice:

thank you :) Patriotism can be improved, at which point its flaws aren't so noticeable. I think you put it best with " I don't have a problem with patriotism, i have a problem with how it is taught."
Posted by Lazy 7 years ago
Lazy
Patriotism is loving the country but if it is taught then it is a attempt to drone people. I call in the conservative political correctness. Conservatives always complain about liberal political correctness.
Posted by debatefan01 7 years ago
debatefan01
Pro always wins this debate in my mind.
Posted by gonovice 7 years ago
gonovice
I have to agree with dvhoose...i think that the fact that we hide every single thing that America has done that is wrong, we don't allow students to see our mistakes. our "shady dealings" need to be known by the younger generations, they are our future and they need to know our mistakes and learn from them. As for the pledge of allegiance, my school doesn't recite it. I think that the whole under god thing is causing an issue between faculty and parents. I don't have a problem with patriotism, i have a problem with how it is taught.
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