The Instigator
mrbullfrog11
Pro (for)
Winning
43 Points
The Contender
tastytaco
Con (against)
Losing
16 Points

Resolved: That NCLB is a negative policy and should be terminated.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/5/2009 Category: Education
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,442 times Debate No: 8115
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (10)

 

mrbullfrog11

Pro

This will be my first debate on this site. With that said, I will take the Pro side of this debate and is open to any debater

The education in America has been suffering for years and we have been falling behind other countries very drastically. Therefore, the U.S. government established the No Child Left Behind Act. The No Child Left Behind Act for education is not helping education.

Pro Argument

1)Improvements cannot be linked to No Child Left Behind

"The interaction of the NCLB policies has created an incentive for states to lower testing standards in order to avoid federal sanctions. Researchers have reported a pattern whereby states lower passing thresholds and otherwise "dumb down" assessments to boost proficiency scores and avoid federal sanctions under NCLB." Essentially, the standards set by No Child Left Behind require schools to lower their testing standards so that schools can still receive funding. Thus, just reading state test scores doesn't actually demonstrate an improvement in academic achievement, it demonstrates a fundamental flaw of the Act which is that it lowers the amount of achievement required to meet false-proficiency markers.
From Dr. Ladner; vice president of research for the Goldwater Institute; Anywhere But Here: The looming Train Wreck of No Child Left Behind; Thursday, March 20, 2008; http://townhall.com...; 4/30/09.
It is because testing scores in support of No Child Left Behind are inaccurate and skewed, while true measures of academic success demonstrate unfortunate problems with the teaching styles that stifle achievement. Also, the students, I would think, feel mandated in their school. Take, for example, my school. At Huron High School, the administration makes the standard for graduation a certain amount of credits to earn. I, for example, want to go to college to be a psychologist. I don't need a semester of PE to learn how to do that or world history for that matter. Those are unnecessary for my interest of study. Instead of having to learn about basic fundamentals, high schools should try to be more like colleges. Have certain fields of study; that way, we can get more students enrolled, have fewer dropouts, and have children increase their strengths. I for one am one of the absolute worst artists in my class. I don't want to waste my time getting frustrated over something that will have little to no impact on my life whatsoever. Therefore, make high schools a more college-based curriculum. Make people want to go to high schools, where there's actual variance between what sort of education can be achieved.

Federal Underfunding
The Bush Administration has significantly underfunded NCLB at the state level, and yet, has required states to comply with all provisions of NCLB or risk losing federal funds. Said Sen. Ted Kennedy, a sponsor of NCLB and Senate Education Committee Chair, "The tragedy is that these long overdue reforms are finally in place, but the funds are not." As a result, most states have been forced to make budget cuts in non-tested school subjects such as science, foreign languages, social studies and arts programs, and for books, field trips and school supplies. Deborah White, Writer www.about.com and Professor at UCLA; Pros & Cons of the NCLB Act; 7/04/08; Page 2, http://usliberals.about.com... ; 4/30/09.
Also, in most countries, a 5 year-old child can expect 16-21 years of education in their lifetime, while in the United States a five year old can expect almost 4 years of education less than that during his/her lifetime, from OECD.org. If the Bush Administration really wanted our education to be caught up with that of other nations, don't you think that he should have made this one of his main priorities. Also, if schools score below what is expected of them, the government takes away even more federal funding.
How can NCLB be effective whatsoever when the government first underfunds the schools then takes away what little money they contribute if they don't exceed expectations. NCLB has had a huge negative impact towards the U.S.

Thank you and good luck to my opponent :)
tastytaco

Con

I do not believe that NCLB is a negative policy. In my case I will analyze what NCLB has done for learning Americans, and why it has succeeded. First off, the No Child Left Behind Act was put in place to make standardized test scores increase. It has done this in three ways. First, it has set strict requirements that schools must reach. Second, it has made schools without previous motivation, become motivated. Lastly, it has recruited better teachers, and therefore has helped students. Due to the fact that NCLB has done what it was made to do, I believe that it is not been a negative policy and should not be terminated.

Point 1: NCLB has significantly improved opportunities for low-income and minority students. The NCLB has allowed all public schools, not just the affluent or well funded districts to be competitive. This has allowed lower income districts to even the playing field with higher class schools on standardized tests. The Center for Education Policy report shows almost all states with necessary data showed evidence of gaps decreasing in the African-American subgroup, while no state showed an increase of the gap. The results went across the table to include Hispanic families, and low income families. This shows that NCLB has helped lower-income and minority students' academic achievement since it was passed thus being a positive effect due to it.

Point 2: Not only has NCLB shown a decrease in the gap between white and subgroups, but it has also shown that overall, achievement has been increasing. The Center of Educational Policy found that the number of instances of gains on NAEP(national standardized tests that have been used since 1978) far outnumbered declines. In reading, the number of states with sufficient data showed much larger gains in the reading levels. Only in math, were there smaller, yet still gains in proficiency. This shows that achievement on all levels of education, with all types of ethnicities has increased since NCLB. Urban school officials credit NCLB with helping teachers and school officials raise student achievement. Also if we want to look at a bigger time line, we can look at NAEP scores since 1978. By looking at the math and reading performance levels, we can see that the are higher than ever, and have grown more quickly since NCLB's passing than any other time in history. This shows how NCLB is doing what it was made for.

Point 3: NCLB supports learning at early years. This has been proven to prevent difficulties as they arise later. A study done by Catherine Snow, head of Graduate School of Education at Harvard, Susan burns, and peg griffin, showed that children taught to read at a young age are more likely to succeed in their adolescent schooling years. NCLB targets early childhood education in reading so that these children can get on the right track. Currently, NCLB provides more than $1billion to help children learn how to read. It does this "to ensure that every student can read at grade level or above. . . (by) the end of grade 3."

Point 4: The NCLB has lead to more qualified teachers, allowing for better education of students, leading to better students with higher academic achievement. The number of public school teachers has risen since the rise of NCLB. IN the fall of 2007k, there were a projected 15.4 pupils per teacher. This is a decrease from the 16.8 pupils from before NCLB. This has lead to more individualized education which leads to better students.

Sub point A: In recent years, more teachers have been teaching in their respective major. Currently, at least 70% of teachers have a major in their field of teaching, with over 90% of core teachers being highly qualified. This is a drastic increase from the years before NCLB. In the 13 years before NCLB, some none core classes had nearly 70% of teachers which were unqualified by today's standards. In the core classes, only 78% were highly qualified. This shows that NCLB's new teacher regulations have led to more highly qualified teachers who have produced better students.
Sub point B: NCLB has allowed for more qualified teachers in poverty stricken districts. Linda Darling-Hammond, Charles E. Ducommon Professors of Education at Stanford University, said that NCLB has stimulated recruitment in low income and minority districts. And these students are no longer have to put up with a "revolving door of inexperienced, unqualified teachers."

This shows that NCLB has done what is was supposed to, and therefore is not a negative policy and should not be terminated.
Debate Round No. 1
mrbullfrog11

Pro

Thank you for accepting this debate and best of luck to my opponent. But back to business.
I will go off of my opponents points.

In his first point, he states that NCLB has improved opportunities for low-income and minority students. Now, this can be a common misconception. From http://www.tcdailyplanet.net...
An Education Week survey found that 83 percent of Minnesota€™s white students graduated from high school in 2003, compared with just 44 percent of African-Americans. The national average for African-American students that year was 52 percent.

Also, from http://www.schoollibraryjournal.com...

The researchers also categorized the graduation rate by ethnicity, race, and language. The study found that 60 percent of African Americans, 75 percent of Latino students, and 80 percent of ESL learners did not graduate within five years. Why? The more "punitive" the rules became in high school under NCLB, the more kids left, McNeil says.

The dropouts actually helped raise the schools' accountability ratings, the study reports. Accountability, McNeil adds, allows principals to hold back students who are at risk of reducing their schools' scores; students who are retained frequently drop out.

Grouping test scores by race, as NCLB requires, also helps to "single out" the lowest-achieving students in their respective subgroups, the study says, thereby increasing incentives for school administrators "to allow those students to quietly exit the system.

Basically, the only reason for the heightened tests scores are because NCLB has too much punitive rules, therefore, over 60% of African-Americans have dropped out, and OVER THREE FOURTHS OF LATINOS have also. NCLB hasn't made new opportunities for minorities; it has made more kids dropout and lowered their chances of getting a job.

Against his 2nd point, from http://www.tcdailyplanet.net...

An Education Week survey found that 83 percent of Minnesota's white students graduated from high school in 2003, compared with just 44 percent of African-Americans. The national average for African-American students that year was 52 percent.

This problem is not new. Many studies and tests have produced similar results, including Minnesota's NCLB test, the MCA-II.

There is no silver bullet, said Jennifer Godinez, associate director of the Minnesota Minority Education Partnership. Social racism, lack of motivation to do well in school, lack of resources at home, a youth culture that doesn't embrace education, lack of financial aid, less rigorous coursework they all play a part.

Although Minnesota does not represent the whole country, it has the ability to be.

The No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 requires that states demonstrate a reduction in the test score minority gap over time but does not specify what methodology states must use to demonstrate this. The Act also requires that a measure of Adequate Yearly Progress be established by each state expressed in terms of the percent of students who achieve a level of "proficiency" on the state examination. While the most common methods used by states for analyzing the minority gap in test scores over time are percent achieving a performance standard, mean scale scores, and effect sizes, the default method for analyzing the minority gap will likely be the percent achieving proficiency. This article considers some of the practical issues involved in using the percent achieving a performance standard, mean scale scores, and effect sizes to analyze the minority gap using Texas student performance on their in-state assessment, National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP), and SAT. The intent of the article is to increase the understanding of policymakers and others on the issues of using the various statistics to analyze the minority gap.

From http://www3.interscience.wiley.com...

Against his 3rd point he states that NCLB provides more than $1billion to help children learn how to read. But he doesn't go into detail about how much of a financial failure it's been.

From http://www.larson.house.gov...

Specifically, I was heartened that the bill would provide nearly $1 billion for a new program aimed at having all children reading by the third grade. The President has reneged on his commitment to fully fund No Child Left Behind, falling $9.4 billion short for this coming fiscal year and $27 billion short overall since its inception.

He hasn't been following through with his promises, which is also why he had such a bad support rating. :P

Against his 4th point, he states that the decrease of pupils has lead to more individualized education. Now, I understand that this could be a good thing, but it should be because of more dropouts. The only thing that NCLB has done for education is that, but as you can see, the negatives severely outweigh the benefits.

To argue on his Sub Point A, college comes into question. If you go back to my first point, it states that NCLB has made it so students don't learn what they want to, they just teach about the basic fundamentals. Math, Science, etc. You never see on an SAT a question that states: An engine is burning oil. A dry compression test shows the cylinders to have 125 psi. A wet compression test shows 130 psi. The most likely cause of the oil burning is:
a) bad main bearings b) worn piston rings
c) bad valve seals d) bad intake manifold gasket. You see If 44 is the average (arithmetic mean) of x, x, x, 35, and 65, then x =
40
42
44
48
50

This is why we must terminated NCLB ASAP. Rising college costs are also an issue. Make it easier. Bring college to high school.
If I would want to be a mechanic, that question would be irrelevant and the SAT would become unuseful.

NCLB has become a very painful burden towards the U.S. and its harsh rules and strict guidelines lead to more dropouts and don't help the the average student (which by the way, the average student is more than 50% likely to dropout).
VOTE PRO!!!!
tastytaco

Con

First, I would like to thank my opponent for making this a interesting and very time-worthy debate. But lets move on to the debate. I will go down the flow of his argument and show you why they are wrong.

"An Education Week survey found that 83 percent of Minnesota€™s white students graduated from high school in 2003, compared with just 44 percent of African-Americans. The national average for African-American students that year was 52 percent."
Now, my opponent points out that the amount of African-Americans graduating in Minnesota is lower than the national average. He purposefully picks out a state that has a wider gap. But, I believe that it would be more effective if we look at trends of graduation rates. If we look at Florida's case, we can see that Florida has shown an increase of graduation rates, and African-American graduation rates.
http://www.panhandleparade.com...
But why just look at one state, lets look at a bigger picture. NCES(National Center for Education Statistics), found that graduation rates improved 1.3% from 2001-2002 to 2002-2003. Although this isn't a monumental increase, it shows that the numbers are rising. Also, 39 states showed increases of graduation rates, while only 10 showed decreases. This further disproves my opponent's graduation argument.
http://nces.ed.gov...

Moving on, my opponent only offers graduation rates again to combat my statistics of test scores rising, and showing a growth in academic achievement due to NCLB. Buts as I have shown, with dropout rates decreasing, and achievement increasing, then NCLB must be doing something right.

Now, sure I won't argue that $27 billion dollars isn't a rather big deal, but the truth is that NCLB is a underfunded law. Researchers state that "We find that these costs (to properly sustain NCLB) substantially exceed the additional federal funding" and "If this assertion is correct, than we conclude that NCLB is requiring states to pursue policies that they otherwise would not pursue. These policies—namely improving the quality of education for those students who are not currently performing at adequate levels—are very expensive, and, if Texas provides a guide, the federal government is providing only a small portion of the required extra costs." Therefore, we can see that the hole that NCLB is in is just because it isn't getting proper funding, or that which it deserves.

Now, his attack on my 4th point. It is impossible for the graduation rates to be currently increasing, which equals decreasing dropout rates, to coincide with a decrease of pupils per classroom. So, therefore the only logical answer to the question of how are pupil per teacher rates decreasing while dropout is also decreasing? Well simply, teachers! as I showed in my 4th point which re-affirms my case point.

Now moving on to his attack on my subpoint A. Although I fail to see how more teachers teaching in their respective majors contributes to students not learning what they want, I'll gladly argue his attack, but treat it as if it is not connected to my point.

My opponent states that students can't learn what they want since they have to learn the basic fundamentals. Firstly, I'd like to point out that yes, it is true that NCLB strongly encourages core classes, much more than others even, but you need those basic fundamentals to build off for everything. Although I have not had any experience as a mechanic, I would believe that you are using math, reading, and science everyday as a mechanic. Nearly every job today, and every college looks for a student who is good at core classes. Why? Because they are a way to measure how effective you will be, no matter what you end up studying.

Lastly, a article that directly contradicts the resolution. "Reauthorize NCLB This Year: The Cost of Not Reauthorizing NCLB Is Too High" The costs of not reauthorizing NCLB are that:
• Schools will not get any additional help to address the challenge that approximately 1.2 million students
fail to graduate from high school each year, more than half of whom are students of color.
• The economy will suffer more lost wages. According to an analysis by the Alliance for Excellent
Education, the economy could have benefited from at least $330 billion in additional wages from
students (over their lifetimes) who should have earned their high school diplomas with the Class of
2007.
• Rates of remediation for students entering college will continue to persist and remain unaddressed. For
example, forty percent of high school graduates enrolled at 4-year institutions of higher education and
63 percent of students enrolled at 2-year institutions of higher education require remedial education"

As you can see, I have shown multiple trends in many areas that are all going in a positive direction. Although my opponent shows you all these horrible figures, those figures are getting better, and it mainly because of NCLB. I have shown that it is being underfunded which leads to the debt he points out. I have shown you how its improving education, although it may not seem like that to those who don't look up close. So please look up close and see the truth. That NCLB is a essential part of American education, and is helping it. Please vote CON.

(Whew, that was a lot of work. Should put a smaller character limit next time so I don't have as much time to ramble on. ; ) )
Debate Round No. 2
mrbullfrog11

Pro

I thank tastytaco for arguing in a timely manner and for making this a notable debate. :). I will start off with his arguments on my attacks and then go on to his attacks on my case.

"Now, my opponent points out that the amount of African-Americans graduating in Minnesota is lower than the national average. He purposefully picks out a state that has a wider gap. But, I believe that it would be more effective if we look at trends of graduation rates."

First of all, schools' statistics were determined flawed and inaccurate. http://www.associatedcontent.com...
He brings up the example of Florida's graduation increase, but why trust that statistic? It seems that every other school has been in on this, and therefore, stats cannot always be trusted .
Also, tries to manipulate you with stats from 1 year.
http://www.associatedcontent.com...

In this report about manipulated high school statistics, it says that other researchers have conducted their own independent studies and placed the true graduation rate around 68%, leaving the national drop out rate approximately 32%. It was conducted in 2005. Now, I know this is not the numbers of 2001-2003, but what it does mean that the chances for manipulation almost guaranteed. Therefore, graduation rates have been decreasing, dropout rates have been increasing (approx. 1/3) and achievement (which I will argue pretty soon here) has become blurred.

Also, he fails to tell you of the fact that NCLB does not specify what methodology states must use to demonstrate a reduction in the test score minority gap. Please extend on that argument.

To add to that, he doesn't talk of the rules of NCLB, and how strict they are. Because of that, the dropout rates have substantially increase, especially among minorities. These "achievements" have muffled and because of these rules, many dropouts are "quietly exiting the system". Which therefore leads to more "individualized studies" and should not be looked in a positive light.

Against his next argument, he agrees with me that $27 billion dollars is a big deal, and he is correct in the aspect that it is under funded. Yet, NCLB sets impossible standards of "proficiency" for funding to continue. This seems illogical, does it not? The under funding is coming at the expense of other students and schools.

His argument about his 4th, as I have proven that the states were inaccurate, he makes the point of the graduation rates increasing therefore, there are less pupils per teacher. With the increasing dropout rates, that's the only reason of individualized classes.

Against his argument on his subpoint A, he's missing what the goal of terminating NCLB would lead to. Now, I'm not going to argue that NCLB encourages core classes, but shouldn't we have the choice of what we should learn? Yes, we do need core classes, but there are some that we don't need. For example, I need approximately 3 credits of Social Sciences in order to graduate. I want to go to college to major in psychology. As a result, I am basically wasting 2 hours and 45 minutes a week studying for that subject. What I would like to benefit from NCLB being shut down is the ability to choose what we want to study and what core classes will get looked at.

He also gives an example of an article about reauthorizing NCLB. One of his statements was, "Schools will not get any additional help to address the challenge that approximately 1.2 million students
fail to graduate from high school each year, more than half of whom are students of color." Now, I'd have to say that terminating it will actually give minorities a better chance of getting their diploma on graduation day. If you go to my statement about NCLB's rules, more kids can't keep up with the standards that NCLB is giving them. Chairmen George Miller has proposed reauthorization program, and an article commented on it:

It will emphasize the need to narrow the social inequality and income gaps. But right here, in our country, the situation is every bit what I described in the opening paragraph. But the remedy prescribed by our business "philanthropeneurs" and our political leaders is exactly the opposite of what's needed. They've imposed a program that:

• Transfers a massive amount of funds from cash-strapped schools and districts to for-profit companies.
NCLB is already under funded, therefore they will be taking more money from schools that aren't "proficient."

• Forces schools to focus narrowly on two subjects—remedial math and remedial reading. Consequently, inner city schools around the country are eliminating electives, closing libraries, and abandoning enrichment programs.
Students won't have that much of choice considering electives will be gone. This is basically a code red on underachieving students.

• Forces teachers to narrow their teaching to squeeze in the boatload of subject matter "standards" tested by their subject's standardized test. Teachers universally complain that there's no time provided for developing concepts and authentic learning—just time to cram in mountains of disconnected facts and skills.
All in all, this takes out the teaching of schools.

• Encourages "teaching to the test"—strategies for guessing the right multiple choice answer, rather than encouraging true thinking and learning— and encourages scripted teaching.
Also, this doesn't focus on the learning part of school, it makes the mentality of getting the answer right paramount.

• Destabilizes already battered inner-city areas by closing down schools and reopening new schools, only to have the new schools also be punished and then closed by NCLB. This merry go- round leads nowhere but down.
Inner city schools already have graduation rates plummeting to below 50%. From http://www.foxnews.com...

• Further destabilizes inner-city schools and neighborhoods by accelerating teacher burnout and, consequently, teacher turnover. Teachers whose kids don't do well on standardized tests are punished—bigger classes, less preparation time, more mind-numbing "professional development."
• Treats teaching like an entry-level job into the business of education. Force out veteran teachers and hire an army of new teachers from elite schools, the majority of who will tell you in advance that they will be out of the classroom in two years.

All in all, my opponent's figures with the national dropout rates can be easily tampered with, which leads to fictional views about NCLB (Don't always believe what you read). Achievements have become easily bent and flexated in order to make them seem as if they've been going beyond the standard. It is a severely under funded law, which leads to schools being falsely accused of "under-achieving", which also leads to them tampering with their scores in order to not become a victim of being cut-off from what little federal funding it has. By terminating it, we gain so many other opportunities and lose little, if not, nothing. Also, a new proposal is being looked at for reauthorization which will extremely limit students' choices on what to learn, therefore, cutting off the smart and intellectual people's education to make up for the one's not exceeding expectations. Students, schools, or education as a whole don't benefit from NCLB. Please, make it simple, don't make any ridiculous reauthorizations, and terminated.

Please, vote PRO!!!
tastytaco

Con

I first would like to thank mrbullfrog11 for his very time worthy and fun debate. I'd like to wish him luck in his future debates. But, lets move on to what we are discussing here today. That NCLB is a negative policy and should be terminated. I stand in firm negation of this resolution. So, let me begin unraveling my case to you all.

I concede to the fact that graduation rates are not perfect. But what I have been trying to point out, and still will show is that in many places, graduation rates are actually increasing. I will refer to this article from the Reuters published in April 22, 2009. "The 10-year graduation rates show that progress is being made in some of America's largest cities..." says Alma Powell, chair of America's Promise Alliance.
http://www.reuters.com...
Now, to finish off my point, I will show you numbers that are similar to the graduation rates that my opponent points out. I'm not trying to do anything but prove once and for all that since NCLB, graduation rates have increased. The Milwaukee Public School district has been kind enough to keep track of graduation rates, and shows a graph of the rates increasing, since NCLB. And since there are an increase in graduation rates, it counters his arguments of NCLB's strict rules. Therefore, although graduations aren't perfect, NCLB has raised them since it was enacted.
http://www.jsonline.com...

Now, moving onto the deficit. The deficit has hurt not only schools as my opponent has mentioned, but it has mainly hurt the image of NCLB. That is the reason that it is commonly brought up as to why NCLB is bad. But the problem is not coming from NCLB, but it is coming from the lack of foresight its creators had. The funding policies can be changed, and would not, do not, require the termination of the policy.

His attack on my 4th argument still remains incorrect. There are more teachers nowadays, and there are also more students as I have proven before.

Now moving on. My opponent states that he believes that he is wasting time since he needs credits from social sciences, and he won't need them in college. Although he may not want to study social sciences for the rest of his life, I am willing to bet that he will definitely use some of the knowledge he gained from those classes eventually in life. That is why core classes are mandated. Because although we think we will never use it, chances are we will. To impress a friend or if you decide to switch majors. Many college students will switch majors about 3 times in 5 years.

Now finally, his argument that states the problems with reauthorizing NCLB. I will just run quickly over them.

1. Obama would like to increase funding to fix this problem.
2. There are still a multitude of electives for students to take, and this can be fixed.
3. These standards are the basics of what kids should/need to be learning. And as far as I'm aware, learning is still happening at my school, and all the others I have been to.
4. This is untrue, and most students who take the test are not simple bubbling in random bubbles.
5. Also untrue, and refer to my recent article about major city schools now improving.
http://www.reuters.com...
6. It is true that there are now more teachers, but refer to my original case. Students are no longer subject to a "revolving door of inexperienced, unqualified teachers." A direct contradiction of what my opponent wants you to believe.

All in all, NCLB is far from perfect, but it is farther from being so harmful that it should be terminated. NCLB has done what it was meant to do, and that is raise test scores, as I pointed out in my original case. It has increased the graduation rate, which was in a crisis before it, and is healing itself now, and it has taught the basics that every student should be equipped with when they graduate high school and prepare for the real world. It has done much of what it was made for, and if funding is increased as President Obama wants, the gains in achievement, graduation rates, and teacher quality would only shoot through the roof.

NCLB is not a negative policy and therefore should not be terminated.

Please vote NEG.
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by mrbullfrog11 8 years ago
mrbullfrog11
haha...true, but still, they shouldn't be making the new, reformed NCLB worse :P
Posted by tastytaco 8 years ago
tastytaco
yeah. But then again, when does anything involving politics every go smoothly?
Posted by mrbullfrog11 8 years ago
mrbullfrog11
btw...they're currently workin on reforming it. I think i brought it up in my case. :P, and it's not going too well.
Posted by RoyLatham 8 years ago
RoyLatham
Good debate from both sides. Well argued with referenced facts. I gave an edge to Con for successfully arguing the problems could be fixed rather than abandoning the policy.
Posted by tastytaco 8 years ago
tastytaco
I'll get to this tomorrow sometime. Sorry, I've had a busy past 2 days.
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Vote Placed by coday32 8 years ago
coday32
mrbullfrog11tastytacoTied
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Vote Placed by thejudgeisgod 8 years ago
thejudgeisgod
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Vote Placed by RoyLatham 8 years ago
RoyLatham
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Vote Placed by tastytaco 8 years ago
tastytaco
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Vote Placed by sherlockmethod 8 years ago
sherlockmethod
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