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Resolved: The Dark side of the Force are the actual "good guys" in Star Wars.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/5/2016 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 9 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,927 times Debate No: 84169
Debate Rounds (4)
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I like to thank Imabench for accepting this debate and this is our 5th and final debate together and I do hope that it will be a good one for the both of us as well as a good read for our readers.

This debate will be about the Star Wars Saga and who is the real "Good" guys in the story. This debate will not be about the definition of good, but about the Dark and Light side of the force. My opponent will not run a counterplan arguing for the Grey Jedi, nor is anything outside of the Movies 1-6 be counted as valid evidence in this debate. If anything from Episode 7 is revealed them my opponent will forfeit the entire debate.

First Round is terms and definitions by Pro and acceptance by Con.
Second Round is for Opening arguments, NO rebuttals.
Third Round is for Rebuttals.
Forth Round is for Rebuttals and conclusion.
No semantics, the definitions provided are the ones to be used.
No trolling.
BOP is shared.
Sources may be placed in the comments section if needed.
Minimum ELO is 2000.
No Profanity.
No Counter-Plans

good guy - any person who is on your side (

Dark Side- dark side of the Force was an aspect of the Force.[1] Individuals who used the dark side drew their power from darker emotions such as fear, anger, hatred,[2] and aggression.[3] The Sith were a major practitioner of the dark side, and were the mortal enemies of the Jedi Order, which followed the light side of the Force.[2] There were others such as the Inquisitorius, who, though not Sith, could draw upon the power of the dark side (



Sorry I completely forgot to accept this debate yesterday, I accept :D
Debate Round No. 1


This round I shall show that not only the Dark side are the good guys, but I shall show that they have benefitted the Galaxy Far Far away. My argument shall be divided into two parts: Freedom and Relgion, and Economics

Contention 1: Freedom and Religion

Though you may attempt to call me crazy, but the Dark Side did a great deal for the Freedoms of the Galaxy. Though first I would like to bring up the Sith's Code.

-Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
-Through passion, I gain strength.
-Through strength, I gain power.
-Through power, I gain victory.
-Through victory, my chains are broken.
-The Force shall free me.[1]

Though you may think this to be that of a Fascist regieme, but the fact is, this is false. When we look at the societal differences we can see that under the Light Side of the Force they taught that Anger and Hate are bad and should be prohibited. We can see that when the Jedi Consal was discussing Anikan's fate, they warned about the anger and hatered inside of him. The Light side takes a Buddhist like approach to the world. Though that is not much of an issue, the Jedi enforce this upon society by impossing their religion on the Galatic Republic. While on the other hand. The Dark Side was shown to embrace hatred and anger. At first glance this seems terrible and this is what they thrive on, but after a closer glance we can see that this is because it is the only thing that is difference between the two sides. The Dark Side embraced all Sentient emotions and accepted the world as it was. Without demonizing other human emotions they were able to allow more personal freedom through that of emotional values. When the Galatic Republic was established, it was believed that the Sith had been destroyed and the Jedi were Guardians and Governmental advisors and had a Major "influence" on the government. [2] With this the Jedi began to enforse their religion upon the Government and hence their religion "influenced" legislation. Making it more of a Theocracy than that of a Republic.

This is also seen with honnesty. When you look at the Light side of the force you see the Jedi's using "Jedi mind tricks" to get people to do what they want. This could have been used to influence the Galatic Republic as it was used to influence the Gungan Leaders. To further their corruption they even attempted to instigate a Coup on a Democratic elected leader. When Supreme Chancellor Palpatine revealed to be Darth Sideous the Jedi attempted to over throw him. This was due to his religious views as we have already seen. Now note that the Jedi creed shows that they are suppose to not have anything to do with the leaders of the Republic and this is a direct violation of their Code which shows their hypocracy. Either way you look at it, the Jedi attempted to overthrough the Supreme Chancellor and would have direct authority over the Senate as well as the Republic. [4]

Star Wars Chancellor Palpatine 6 Reasons The Jedi Could Be Villains In a Star Wars Movie

Another thing that the Jedi opposed was that of advanced Technology. Though this seems far fetched with the flying cars and a long list of other advancements that are seen throughout the movies. Though Darth Sideous tells Anikan that he has the power to save his lover, he isn't talking about Force Healing. He is talking about medical technology. Throughout Episodes 1-3, medical technology is nearly primative. Ankian's robotic arm is semi-decent, but has little to no feeling. When Luke lost his hand to Darth Vader, his hand regains feeling and not to mention that on Hoth much medical technology is there and greatly better than that of the Galatic Republic. The explination for the rebels technology outside of the theft of Emperial goods, but is the lack of Jedi influence over them. There is only 1 Jedi Remaining at that time and it's Yoda who is secluded in a swamp land. The Jedi's represstion of Technology and medical advances has severly harmed soceity compared to the Empire.

Next, one of the Jedi's worst problems was that of Slavery. Under the Galatic Republic, Slavery was supposedly outlawed, but with little to no enforcement policies throughout the Galaxy the institution of Slavery still existed. The Bellow is a quote regarding the matter.

"I can't believe there's still slavery in the galaxy. The Republic's anti-slavery laws—"
"The Republic doesn't exist out here. We must survive on our own."
R13;Padmé Amidala and Shmi Skywalker discuss slavery on Tatooine [3]

When the Empire and the Dark side rises to power there is no slavery, except on Java's Palace which we can all assume is an illegal opperation given his persona. How do we know this? When we look to other areas of the Galaxy we can see machines everywhere without slaves. Why have a machine when you can have a Wookie or a slave to do the work. It may last longer, but balanced with the matenance costs with the Driods, it saves more money and hence, more profitable for people. Even when working on the Death Star there are Storm Troopers working instead of Driods which is more costly, but I will get into that in my next contention.

Contention 2: Economics

Something that the Empire and the Dark Side was superior to the Jedi was that of economics. One of the issues that had occured was that of the failure of the Financial Reform Act. This bill was set to reform a great deal of the economics in the Empire as well as cut down on corruption. This billed faced stiff opposition in the Senate, but what made the incident worse was the assasination of the author of the bill. [5] Those who did it were extremely corrupt and greedy, think of it as the Bernie Sanders view of the Koch Brothers, to make things worse, many say this lead to the Clone wars and the formation of the CIS.

The big one here is the Death Star(s). You may ask, what does this have to do with economics, but the answer is, a lot! After the years between Episodes 3 and 4, the Civil War had taken a serious toll on the economy. With the Galatic Empire in a Recession the Galatic Empire fell back on an old economic playbook, Keynesian Economics. The Empire likely instigated an "Emperial" works system by doing this. This project would have likely created over a trillion dollars, not to mention the increase in the need for Storm Troopers and weaponry. Military technology has been a key job sector as much of the time you'll hear the US military with a surplus which gets sold off. The military is one of the highest employment sectors while military and weapons building is key to creating more jobs. Not to mention the construction jobs created from the public works system. The government spending would increase aggeragate demand which would lead to an increase of jobs as people had more cash and bought more goods. Not to mention with the abolition of slavery, more people had more money to spend which increased money all around for the Empire.

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A good guy is defined in the debate as 'Any person who is on your side', so for my arguments in this round of the debate I will focusing on actions committed by the Sith that would go contrary to what people would approve of or what would be good for people, indicating that the Sith were 'not on their side'

1) Destruction of Alderaan by the Sith

Alderaan, a planet of likely billions of people, was destroyed by the Sith AFTER Princess Leia gave up the location of a key rebel base, essentially meaning the Sith killed billions of people on an entire planet just for sh*ts and giggles. The Sith were not on the side of the people of Alderaan, and assuming most people are against the destruction of planets for the hell of it, this means that the Sith are not 'on your side', meaning that they are not the good guys

2) Dissolution of the Galactic Republic and subsequent consolidation of power

In Star Wars Ep 3, the Republic is reorganized into the First Galactic Empire by Sidious himself after using the Jedi's attempt to depose him for being Darth Disious as political gain, wiping out the voice of the people in the former republic on all government affairs while establishing a dictatorship in the process with himself at the very top. Autocracy directly goes against what the people in the former Republic would have wanted, meaning that the Sith were not on 'their side', by extension making them the 'bad guys'. The dissolution and replacement of the government with a more centralized and dicatorial one, along with the flat out annihilation of other republics/democracies in later movies, only further demonstrates the resolve against the will/power of the people by the Sith, strongly suggesting that the Sith are indeed the 'bad guys'.

3) Killing Padawans in a holy site

In Ep 3 while carrying out Order 66, Anakin now as Vader killed the remaining Padawans who had escaped an earlier assault by stormtroopers and were hiding in the Jedi Council Meeting room. They were likely unarmed and were looking to Anakin for help and protection, where at his hands they all died in cold blood.

Killing kids is one of the things that people are unilaterally opposed to, and since the Sith carried out exactly that both in a church (The Jedi Temple) and again on those who escaped indicates that the Sith are very much not on the side of the people and are instead looking out exclusively for their own interest. Therefore the Sith are definitely not the good guys

4) Use of torture

The torturing of captives while controversial and even done to try to protect people is still a tactic frowned upon by a large segment of society, arguably a majority. The Sith frequently used torture in the movies, where it is implied that princess Leia was tortured to try to reveal the location of a key rebel base. The systematic use of torture by the Sith indicates that if most people in the time period did not approve of the use of torture, then this would make the Sith the enemies of the people and thus the 'bad guys'. Society in today's day and age are agains torture for the most part, indicating that civilizations in the distant future would likely be just as opposed to the idea of torture, if not even more opposed then we are today.

5) Use of Human Cloning for warfare

Whereas torture may or may not be approved of depending on one's political affiliation, human clothing is far and away more universally opposed by people regardless of political orientation, yet the Sith engage in precisely that for the creation of the clone army in Ep 2. To go directly against the will of the people and engage in human cloning, and also purely for the intent of carrying out organized warfare, is an action that likely would be universally opposed and condemned by people in the Republic itself and all around the galaxy, indicating that the Sith are looking out more for themselves and their own agenda than for the will of the people, further lending credence to the idea that they are indeed the 'bad guys' in the Star Wars universe

6) Construction of Megaweapons

The 2 Death Stars and Starkiller base (That big thing in the poster of Ep 7 that everyone who has glanced at the poster knows exists by now) are, as their names highly suggest, weapons made with the deliberate attempt to try to kill as many people as possible, rather than focus on precision bombing/attacking that current militaries in our world try to focus more and more on. Minimizing civilian casualties in conflicts has been a goal of democratic militaries ever since the end of World War 2, so the creation of mega weapons that go directly against the concept of minimizing civilian casualties, and in fact leaving no civilians left to begin with, strongly indicates that the Sith care nothing for minimizing civilian casualties in conflicts. Alderaan was an example listed before as an instance of mass killings that were carried out by the Sith regime, but this argument points to the creation and operation of such Megaweapons themselves as evidence that the Sith are looking out more for their own benefit than the will of the people regarding the value of human life, who likely prefer that civilian casualties in military conflicts be kept to a minimum which the Sith clearly does not care for. Therefore, the Sith are extremely likely to be considered the 'Bad guys' in the world of Star Wars

7) Deliberate breaking of deals

"I am altering the deal, pray I do not alter it any further…"

Vader to Lando Calrissian

Though a more minor point to make, this scene shows more directly how the Sith alter and exploit existing deals they have with other people to benefit themselves routinely, and threaten the use of force and punishment against those who protest the alterations. This is done purely to get what they want, not what other people might want, indicating that the Sith are looking out solely for their own agenda, not that of anyone else who isnt one of them. Thus this is more evidence showing that the Sith are the 'Bad guys' since even when dealing with people they are allied with, they will imbalance an agreement more in their favor whenever they see fit, and use intimidation to force others to comply with it.

8) Palpatine selling out his own planet to become Chancellor

One last argument I'd like to bring up is how Sidious became Chancellor in the first place. The Prime Minister before Palpatine was a man by the name of Finis Valorum, ( ), who was ousted out of power by a vote of no confidence against Valorum following the failure to properly address the invasion of Naboo.

Vote of No confidence in Ep 1:

The planet Naboo, which was invaded by the Trade Federation that was secretly under control of then-Senator Palpatine, was also the planet that had elected Palpatine as its Senator to the republic in the first place

So to summarize, Palpatine authorized an invasion against the very planet that elected him to represent their interests, in a political ploy to become Chancellor of the entire republic himself. Fast forward to after the vote of no confidence against Chancellor Valorum, where Palpatine was elected to power among his fellow Senators, not by the people of the Republic.

So Palpatine seized power in an undemocratic fashion by going against the will of his own people by covertly authorizing an invasion of his own planet, and would then go on to dissolve the republic altogether and make himself Emperor. As the original leader of the Sith in the first 6 Star Wars films, this clearly indicates that the Sith go directly go against the will of the people of the galaxy, and go to no end as well, in order to achieve their own agenda and consolidate power to themselves.

The Sith for all intents and purposes, are therefore clearly the 'Bad guys' in the Star Wars universe

Debate Round No. 2


I thank my opponent for their patience he has alotted me in this debate. This round I will refute my opponent's argument and will attempt not to cross address points from my previous round.

Contention 1: Alderaan

My opponent may think that this destruction of Alderaan was reckless. This is not true. This was false. Princess Leia informed the Empire that the rebels were on Dantooine, but this was false. The rebels had actually relocated their forces to Yavin 4 before her capture. [1] This already shows that this was justified as her lie could have lead to the destruction of Dantooine if Alderaan was left alone and the Empire were to end the war there. Princess Leia would have then been guilty of destroying another planet and hence this was wrong on her part. This was also needed as it showed that the Empire was doing this to prevent war. The Civil War had already done it's damage and even with the destruction of Alderaan and Yavin 4, far more lives would have been saved.

Contention 2: Dissolution of the Galatic Republic

This consolidation of power was justified. The Jedi, who betrayed their own Jedi Creed, attempted a Coup on a Democratically elected leader. Emperor Palpatine was also given War Time Powers during this crisis to fight against the Confederation. His power was achieved by a Democracy and the Jedi atempted to pull a "US" with a regieme change in the Galatic Republic and it led to the Empire. Chances are if this did not occur then the Republic would still exist.

-Jedi are the guardians of peace in the galaxy.
-Jedi use their powers to defend and protect, never to attack others.
-Jedi respect all life, in any form.
-Jedi serve others rather than ruling over them, for the good of the galaxy.
-Jedi seek to improve themselves through knowledge and training. [2]

This contention actually helps me as this coup led to the Jedi violating their own code by having them attempt to seize control of the Galaxy and they by this attempted Coup, led to the Galatic Empire, so any issues against the Galatic Empire is really due to the Jedi.

Contention 3: Killing Padawans

Here I would like to bring up an argument of Sparks from Saul D Alinsky. He had argued that the Rule of Means and Ends depends on the War and in the war, all is justified. The second is that Patriot is dettermined by success and due to the Empire's sucess it shows that they have done the right thing no matter how bad it had seemed. [3] Think of it this way. The battle of the Alamo, many Americans view it as a battle of Freedom, but many Mexicans view it as treason, American Imperialism, and the fight for slavery. You can see how different people saw this event. When it is transfered into this event we saw it as a terrible thing, but this was needed as it was to kill the traitors who had attempted to over throw the Republic and was needed to ensure the safety of the Republic. Again this could be related to the detention center at Gitmo (but these are all for a different debate), but pending on the point of view many of these things change. According to Alinsky, this event was justified due to the war.

Contention 4: Torture

Though torture is a bad technique of interrogation you must compare it to the Jedi who used Mind controll to get their way. Though torture is indeed a bad thing, but to be stripped of your free will and controlled like a puppet is even worse. We are unaware of who they controlled or what they did to the Republic or their allies in order to get their way.

Contention 5: Clone Warfare

This argument also turns against my opponent. The Authorization of the Clone Army to begin was by Jedi Sifo-Dyas. [4] He had the power of foresight and was able to see into the future to see the upcoming war. Knowing this he authorized the creation of the clone army knowing the Jedi would be unable to protect Republic from the Trade Federation tearing it appart. Even members of the Jedi consule viewed him to be extreme even though he was one of the leading members.

"Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas is still a leading member of the Jedi Council, is he not?"R13;Lama Su, to Obi-Wan Kenob

Contention 6: Construction of Mega Weapons

Despite me already going over a great part of this already I'm going to have to go after a different approach then last round since I don't want to double mix. My opponent thinks that this is a problem, but this actually shares the same idea the US had with the Bomb during the nuclear war in nuclear proliferation. If the rebels were to do a massive strike of a great purportion then the Empire would "hit them with everything they got" or otherwise known as Mutally Assurd Destruction. [5] If something big were to happen then it would be known that the Empire would wipe you out and this kept the Galaxy at peace for a period of time as no major issues occured.

Contention 7: Breaking Deals

My opponent brings up the Lando Calrisian deal with Vader and it being altered. This may be true, but once again we have to look at the Jedi's "Jedi Mind tricks" this was used to control people into getting them to do whatever they wanted and stole your free will. The Dark Side may have broken deals, but they didn't control your mind to get what they wanted to go against your own will. [6]

Contention 8: Palpatine selling out his own planet to become Chancellor.

My opponent brings up Palpatine selling out his own planet, but we have to look at why he did it, not just because he did it. When we analyze the reason behind the blockade it was due to the Republic's massive taxation on Trade Routes across the Galaxy. Palpatine himself did not have the popular support to pass reform as the Financial Reform Act failed due to crony corruption in the Republic. The only way to change the tax code would have been something of drastic measures such as this war. The Republic could have reformed their tax codes and the entire war would have been over, but due to this refusal Chancellor Palpatine had no choice, but to do something drastic. [7]

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1) "The Jedi enforce this upon society by impossing their religion on the Galatic Republic"

In films 1 through 6 there were at most a dozen Jedi in the entire universe, whereas the galactic Republic had a population that easily numbered in the tens of billions. It is highly unlikely that the Jedi tried to enforce their ideology on the entire Republic, nor were even capable of doing so.

Furthermore in Ep 4, Han Solo himself said 'Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.' indicating that the Galactic Republic was most certainly not required to adopt the Jedi religion since people openly mocked it.

The Jedi did not try to turn the Galactic Republic into a Theocracy, and there's no evidence in any of the 6 movies that they even attempted to do so. This argument is simply a false claim made against the Jedi to defame them that holds no actual weight or credibility

2) "Jedi mind tricks"

In Ep 4 Obi-Wan states that 'The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded' in order to convince the storm troopers that those were not the droids they were looking for..... This indicates that the Jedi cannot pull out the 'Jedi-mind' trick on whoever they please and whenever they see fit, only those who are weak-minded can be influenced by use of the Force.
The claim that the Jedi could pull this on anyone they wanted is therefore false, since all evidence indicates that the force can only be used against weak-minded people. Government officials meanwhile are usually some of the most stubborn people in the entire galaxy, so entrenched in their views that it is pretty far-fetched to assume that any Jedi mind tricks could be used on them due to their own stubbornness....

3) "When Supreme Chancellor Palpatine revealed to be Darth Sideous the Jedi attempted to over throw him. This was due to his religious views as we have already seen"

First off, the Jedi didnt 'depose' Sidious, they placed him under arrest, which Mace Windu clearly states in Ep 3

Mace Windu: "In the name of the Galactic Senate of the Republic, you're under arrest, Chancellor."
Supreme Chancellor: "Are you threatening me, Master Jedi?"
Mace Windu: "The senate will decide your fate."
Supreme Chancellor: [now speaking as Darth Sidious] "I AM the senate!"
Mace Windu: "Not yet" (15th quote down)

So not only did the Jedi NOT depose Sidious, they were also going to let the Senate decide the fate of Sidious, which shows the deep respect the Jedi have for the integrity of the government and the separation of powers within it.

Secondly, the Jedi did not arrest Sidious for 'his religion', they arrested him for being DARTH SIDIOUS, the guy who orchestrated the outbreak of a galactic civil war to rise to power to exterminate the Jedi and name himself emperor in the process.

4) "To further their corruption they even attempted to instigate a Coup on a Democratic elected leader"

- 1 - It wasn't a coup, it was an arrest and attempt to let the Senate legitimately decide the fate of Sidious through a trial.

- 2 - Sidious wasn't democratically elected. A Republic functions by having the people elect Senators, and then the Senators elect a Chancellor.... Sidious wasn't voted for by the people of the galaxy, he was voted in by Senators.

5) "Another thing that the Jedi opposed was that of advanced Technology"

There is literally no evidence of this whatsoever.

"Though Darth Sideous tells Anikan that he has the power to save his lover, he isn't talking about Force Healing. He is talking about medical technology"

He is clearly talking about using Sith tactics to save those Anakin loves, not 'medical technology'... The conversation that quote comes from is about the abilities of Darth Plagueis, the Sith Lord who trained Darth Sidious in the ways of the Sith.

Supreme Chancellor: "...He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.
Anakin Skywalker: "He could do that? He could actually save people from death?"
Supreme Chancellor: "The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural"
^ 7th one down

There is literally no indication that the Jedi suppress the advancement of technology, and the one example cited as evidence clearly refers to the use of the dark side of the force itself, not medical technology

"The Jedi's represstion of Technology and medical advances has severly harmed soceity compared to the Empire."

12 Jedi couldn't have held back the advancement of technology throughout the Galaxy, as evidenced by light-speed space travel, giant space crafts, death stars, lightsabers, gigantic cities, etc.

6) Slavery

"When the Empire and the Dark side rises to power there is no slavery"

The entire clone army was literally bred on one planet and programmed to obey orders at all costs, that sounds a lot like slavery to me. It can also be argued that the existence of slavery in far away planets was the fault of the Senate Government itself, not the fault of the Jedi. The Jedi's duties are to be a peacekeeping force for the Senate, not to enforce Senate protocol on any and every law that they pass.

7) "the failure of the Financial Reform Act"

The Financial Reform Act was never once showcased in any of Episodes 1-6 of the Star Wars franchise, therefore it is completely inadmissible as evidence since according to Pro's own rules in round 1: "Nor is anything outside of the Movies 1-6 be counted as valid evidence in this debate"

8) Economic Spending on the Death Star

"The government spending would increase aggeragate demand which would lead to an increase of jobs as people had more cash and bought more goods. Not to mention with the abolition of slavery, more people had more money to spend which increased money all around for the Empire."

Actually it is hypothesized that the destruction of the Death Stars would have sent the Galactic Empire into complete financial ruin:

The basic analysis is that on government projects of this size, private banking would have had to step in to foot a good chunk of the bill of constructing the 2 Death Stars. The destruction of the Death Stars means that the banks who had invested so largely into their construction would have suffered a catastrophically large loss of equity when the Death Stars were destroyed. The paper estimates that banking systems in the Galactic Republic make up about 60% of the entire GDP (About the same as the US), meaning that if the banks go under, everything else goes out with them. (Sound familiar?)

The construction of the Death Stars were therefore not a financial stimulus for the galaxy, or at least not a financial positive overall, since their destruction would have catastrophically damaged the galactic economy to almost immeasurable repair.


1) Destruction of Alderaan

Lying about the location of a rebel base of a couple hundred rebels is most certainly NOT a justifiable reason of destroying an entire planet of billions of people. Leia also cannot be held liable for the destruction of Alderaan since 1) She didnt order its destruction, 2) Grand Moff Tarkin ordered its destruction, and 3) Grand Moff Tarkin ignored Leia's information regardless if it was true or not and wanted to blow up Alderaan anyways.

2) Dissolution of the Republic

"the Jedi attempted to pull a "US" with a regieme change"

They only attempted to arrest Sidious and let the Senate determine his fate. They did not attempt to seize power like you keep claiming. Sidious then used the thwarted attempt to make himself dictator when he could have just branded the Jedi as rebels and branded them as terrorists, remaining as Chancellor in the meantime. He chose not to though because he wanted power and was looking out for himself

3) Killing of Padawans

Con argues that the killing of the Padawans was justified due to the war, but the war at the time the Padawans were killed was when many of the Jedi masters were already killed. Only Obi Wan and Yoda survived order 66, meaning the Padawans could have easily been jailed or sent elsewhere where they could not be trained to become Jedi again. Instead they were killed, which was unjustifiable under those or any circumstances, indicating that the Sith are clearly the bad guys

4) Use of torture

"Though torture is a bad technique of interrogation you must compare it to the Jedi who used Mind controll to get their way"

No you dont. There are ZERO signs of physical or mental pain in the Jedi using mind tricks that last seconds on a person. Torture can leave literal physical scars on people, mentally unbalance them, etc that makes it far more controversial than Jedi mind tricks, which last a few moments in a person's life.

5) Human cloning

"The Authorization of the Clone Army to begin was by Jedi Sifo-Dyas"

This claim also comes from evidence used outside the original 6 movies, which means it cannot be entered as evidence in the debate per the rules stated in round 1.

Furthermore, the Sith could have easily continued to use drone soldiers to fight their wars for them rather than use clone troopers, yet the Sith decided to resort to human cloning anyways just because it suited their own interests.

6) Palpatine selling out his own planet to invasion

"When we analyze the reason behind the blockade it was due to the Republic's massive taxation on Trade Routes across the Galaxy"

No evidence of that whatsoever and it can be equally argued that he did it as part of a ploy to seize power for himself. Also, not liking taxes is not a good enough reason to authorize an invasion of your own planet

Debate Round No. 3


Alright. I thank my opponent for this wonderous debate, but like all good things, it must come to a close. I will begin by following the same flow that my opponent has used in his previous round.

Contention 1: Freedom of Relgion

My opponent is mistaken by him placing his belief in the fact that Han Solo's mocking of the Jedi means that there wasn't a theocracy. This only shows that under the Galatic Empire that he was able to mock it. Once again this is under the dark side which premits this to occur. This can easily be compared to the ending of a religious rule anywhere in the world. You can simply lie and say you are religious and you really aren't. Also keep in mind that Yoda has stated several times that people are either too old or have to much hate to become a Jedi. These are people who became at the top of their class in the religion, but failed to go any higher. You can almost think of it as the Catholic Clergy in a way.

Contention 2: Jedi Mind Tricks

My opponent's claim of being unable to fool the Senate is false. This is shown as even though political leaders are Stubborn, Boss (Rugor) Nass was shown to be fooled by the Jedi mind trick into fighting the battle of Naboo despite him not having any interest in the war itself. [1]

Contention 3: Chancellor Palpatine

My opponent claims that the Chancellor is making a hostile take over, but he is incorrect. In Episode II the Emergancy Powers Act gave Chancellor Palpatine rights a dictator, pratically by being able to call off elections, and gave him powers to pass laws without the approval of the Senate. [2] So in this case he was completely justified in that statement as it was pratically true. When the Jedi attempted to arrest him for doing his job he drew his lightsabber.

Contention 4: Coup

1. It was a Coup, as shown above, he was doing everything via the law and the Jedi attempted to arrest him and, thus, overthrowing the Chancellor and toppling the Republic.

2. The Senators were elected by people around the Galaxy and these people elected the Chancellor. Theoretically, he was elected by the people of the Galaxy. Not to mention he was directly elected by those in his district.

Contention 5: Jedi oppose technology

We may think that this is all high tech by our standards, but this comes into play by the standards of the Star Wars universe, technology was completely opposed by the Jedi. Sure they would not be able to supress this new technology, but they sided with the Republic and were able to influence the Republic. It wouldn't be to far of a stretch of imagination to see that the Republic can inforce these laws. Many people can look at war materials. When the prequils were occuring the Republic's Clone Troopers used Eta-2 Actis-class interceptor which was not the most up to date. [3] After the Empire took over we saw a massive advancement in technology with the X-Wing, TIE Fighter, and TIE Fighter Interceptor. War materials multiplied and moved way faster than it ever did in the Galatic Republic.

Contention 6: Slavery

My opponent brings up slavery once more and that it was the Clones that were enslaved. This is where I have to turn my finger and point at the Jedi. This was because it was issued by Sifo-Dyas. My opponent claims that I cheated, but yet this was brought up in Episode 2 when Obi-Wan landed on Kamino. [see 2nd video] This not only refutes my opponent's claim, but it turns this point, and the one further down, in my favor.

Contention 7: Financial Reform Act

Though it is outside of the movie, keep in mind that it is brought up several times in the movies by showing the Trade Federation Leaders themself make mention of it in EP1 (I'm not sure if they do it in 3). Though this happend outside of the movies, much like my opponent's Sun Destroyer, it played a key part in the Saga and this one was not only mentioned, but played a role almost as large as the Death Star in the Saga. All points extended across the board. Here is a quote from Episode 1 on the Matter of these actions.

"Supreme Chancellor, delegates of the Senate, a tragedy has occurred, which started right here with the taxation of trade routes, and has now engulfed our entire planet in the oppression of the Trade Federation!"R13;Sheev Palpatine[4]

Contention 8: Economics and the Death Star

Though the destruction was indeed devistating, but we have to keep in mind many of the things that went into it. Sure the Rebels destroyed it, but if that is the issue then the Light Side is at fault for destroying the entire economy of the Galaxy then. So this would extend across as a point for me. When we look at the Death Star we can to look at the state. We can see that even though there is unlimited resources, both sides are unable to actually afford the project. It is more likely than not that the Death Star was built by the Private sector via the free market. [5] Thus these companies footed the bill, but it's destruction would still be painful. Either way this goes, this point flows across as the Light side destroys the economic while the Dark Side provided Stimulas, Jobs, and recovery.

Now we move onto Con's Case

Contention 1: Destruction of Alderaan

My opponent still attempts to shift the blame. It was definately shown that she lied about the rebel base and if the Emperial troops would have taken her word and destroyed that planet there would be a great deal of blood on her hands of innocent lives since she gave the wrong information. If she would have told the truth, Yavin IV would be gone and the War would be over.

Contention 2: Dissolution of the Republic

This is something that is also false. The Chancellor was well within his rights and was doing everything legally. The Jedi had no reason to arrest him outside of the fact that he was of a different religion. He was forced to fight with the Jedi since they were doing something that was unconstituional (assuming it's US like) and was being threatend by force.

Contention 3: Killing Padawans

Though they would not be able to become Jedi's again, they would be able to train others with what they know. This would lead to a new influx of Jedi that would be able to rise agains the Empire. This would not be able to happen. If they were jailed they could use the Jedi Mind trick to get out of jail. They needed to be killed for the safety of the Empire and all those living there.*

Contention 4: Torture

There is no proof that is does or does not cause pain, but interfering with an individual's own personal freedom of their own self so they have their own autonomy. This is a violation of the most important right of an individual and though you might feel pain in torture you are able to control yourself and have awareness which doesn't occur in this situation where it is pratically brainwashing.

Contention 5: Human Cloning

Extend from my slavery contention.

There's a key difference between droids and humans. Humans cannot be hacked or cannot have something happen to them like what occured at the end of the Battle of Naboo where the entire droid army was destroyed. There are many other things I can get into, but I'm running out of characters and that's the subject of another debate.

Contention 6: Palpatine selling out his own planet

We do not understand the entire Galaxy's politics, but one thing does exist. The fact that the CIS ceded from the Republic over taxes. If a group planets could cede over that then imagine what the politics are on that planet? The issue is simple as it would show this is a key thing to have happend and a necessary action.

Thank you and please vote Pro!

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*Not my own personal opinion nor my advocation of such an action.


All of Pro's counter arguments are simply him stating his own opinion as fact while turning a blind eye to all evidence clearly indicating otherwise.

Arguments in support of the Jedi

- 1 - There is no evidence that a council of 12 Jedi have imposed a theocracy on the entire GALAXY like Pro claims and insists, nor could it even be reasonably possible for 12 Jedi to pull off such a feat either. Its not indicated in any of the 6 movies that the Republic is a theocracy imposed by the Jedi, and there is evidence of people not believing the force even existing in the first place, which gives further weight against the idea of a Jedi-imposed theocracy on the galaxy.

- 2 - The Jedi intended to arrest Palpatine for being the Sith Lord Darth Sidious who plunged the galaxy into a Civil War and let the Senate decide his fate, not so that the Jedi could rise to power themselves by ousting Sidious over religious objections like Pro has claimed. Evidence and quotes taken directly from the movie shows that the Jedi acted righteously in their attempt to arrest Palpatine that Pro has simply ignored.... To believe that the Jedi attempted a coup requires that one have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a coup actually is: a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.

The Jedi acted within their power to place the Chancellor under arrest, they attempted to arrest Sidious peacefully without trying to surprise attack him, and the Jedi did not intend to seize power of the galaxy. The Jedi are clearly not the bad guys.

- 3 - There is no evidence that the Jedi opposed the advancement of technology, nor would it be possible that a council of 12 Jedi could have stopped technology from advancing, and the advanced technology of Star Wars clearly indicates that technology was not held back at all. The Jedi did not try to hold back the galaxy, and they are not the bad guys here either

- 4 - To say the rebels are somehow the real bad guys for blowing up the Death Star and crashing the Empire's economy would be to the same as sympathizing and siding with a rapist for his victim striking back at him to try to stop being raped..... The rebels were fighting in their own self defense against weapons meant to cause as many civilian casualties as possible, not to resort to economic warfare against the Empire. Therefore the rebels are not the bad guys, and neither are the Jedi

Arguments critical of the Sith

- 1 - Jedi mind tricks are temporary and not painful in any way whatsoever, to the point that people dont even know theyve been influenced. The use of actual torture by the Sith on the other hand is a technique that is well known to leave lasting physical and mental pain, with its effectiveness being questionable in the first place. The Sith are clearly more evil in this comparison

- 2 - Palpatine was granted dictatorial powers by the Senate do handle an ongoing war that he started in the first place just to come to power. His rise to emperor was completely unjustifiable, and to paint him as a legitimate democratic ruler of the people is to reject all of the evidence indicating otherwise.

- 3 - The taxation of trade routes in the galaxy was merely the excuse that Sideous used to orchestrate an invasion of his own planet Naboo, in a political ploy to become Supreme Chancellor and seize power over the galaxy. There are far better and more legal means to oppose excessive taxation, yet Sideous subjected his own people to warfare to take over as Cahncellor. Meaning that Sidious and the Sith are clearly the bad guys in this scenario

- 4 - The destruction of Alderaan was done immediately after Leia confessed, meaning it wasn't even known if she told the truth or not by the Sith at the time, and they opted to kill billions of innocent people anyways. Because maximizing civilian casualties is something only bad guys would do, the Sith are therefore clearly the bad guys.

- 5 - The Padawans were at most 6 years old when Darth Vader slaughtered them. To claim that this was somehow justified because the 6 year olds would have taught others what they knew (which was nothing to begin with since they were SIX) is completely fallacious. There was no reason to kill children, and there was no excuse for it either. The Sith are clearly the bad guys in this situation.

- 6 - Human cloning of troops for warfare is not excused just because droid armies could be hacked or shut down. A civilization thousands of years in the future could easily figure out how to encrypt robots from such risks of being hacked, yet the Empire chose to resort to one of the most universally disapproved practices in the world, human cloning for purposes of warfare. The Sith are clearly the bad guys for doing this, because drafting people into the army, which was a much more viable and reasonable option, was not pursued by the Sith.

- 7 - The construction of megaweapons like the Death Stars and Starkiller base were done by the Sith to maximize civilian casualties, which is exactly what bad guys would do, since its preferred by people to minimize civilian casualties in battles. The destruction of these megaweapons also wrecked the economy of the Empire, which the Sith were evidently willing to risk in order to have absolute control in the galaxy. They are clearly the bad guys in this scenario

- 8 - Sidious, who controlled the Trade Federation, authorized an invasion of his own planet as a ploy to seize power in the entire galaxy, which is unjustifiable no matter what the taxation scenario even was. Sidious's actions were not done for the interest of the people of Naboo who elected Palpatine to represent them, instead they were done for his OWN interests... For the SITH's interests.... They are clearly the bad guys in this entire scenario.

To Summarize:

- The Sith literally killed children when they absolutely did not have to or have any good reason to
- The Sith routinely used torture which is far less reliable and far less humane than any Jedi mind trick
- The Sith constructed megaweapons meant to kill as many civilians as possible in wars by destroying entire planets
- The Sith resorted to human cloning in addition to torture and civilian killings to accomplish their own agenda
- The Sith put the entire economy of the Empire in jeopardy by constructing megaweapons meant to help them maintain power
- Sidious orchestrated a devastating invasion of his own planet that elected him purely for his own desires
- The Jedi were not theocratic, anti-technology zealots who tried to enforce their beliefs on the entire galaxy
- There is no evidence the Jedi even could have suppressed technological advancement or religious freedom in the first place
- Slavery in the Republic cannot be blamed on the Jedi, nor could taxation, corruption, or any of the other things Pro tries to pin on them
- The Jedi acted well within their legal boundaries in trying to arrest Sidious and try to keep order in the Republic

For the reasons stated above and in previous rounds, the Jedi can only be seen as the good guys and the Sith can only be seen as the bad guys to any logical person. Vote Pro.
Debate Round No. 4
53 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Tashasays 8 months ago
Pro's resolution is that the Dark side are the good guys in Star Wars. The BoP is shared, however, pro is going against conventional wisdom.
Pro opens his case by planting a seed of doubt, showing that the Dark Side might not be entirely bad and the Republic is not entirely good. He exposes the fact that the story only shows the point of view from the Light and ignores the point of view from the Dark. He points out the flaws in the Light Side, which isn't part of his resolution, but may help show that the Dark Side's actions were justified.
Con presents eight really strong arguments that show that the Dark Side is bad in both actions and intentions. Pro attempts to counter each argument, but comes up short, particular in regard to the destruction of Alderaan, which was an inhabited planet. Con tries to shift the blame to Princess Leia for lying, but in the end, the Dark Side pulled the trigger even though the planet was not a threat to anyone else.
Overall, it was a good debate, but pro's resolution was too lofty of a goal. He was not able to prove that the Dark Side were good guys. At best, he was able to show that there was good and bad in both the Dark and Light side. Con did a great job pointing out all the terrible things that the Dark Side did, so he wins the argument. Conduct, sources, and S&G were a tie.

Can be allowed to vote now, please?
Posted by whiteflame 9 months ago
>Reported vote: Ariesx// Mod action: Removed<

5 points to Con (Arguments, Sources). Reasons for voting decision: Con had the advantage in this debate. Con was able to prove that with facts that the Sith were evil. No "good guy" blows up a planet just because somebody lied to him or her. No "good guy" purges all known Jedi without a fair trial. I love the Kylo Ren and Darth Vader, but I know where there aligned when it comes to morality.

[*Reason for removal*] (1) The voter doesn't explain sources. (2) The voter insufficiently explains arguments. You have to reference points made by both sides and not merely tout one side's arguments in order to come to a decision.
Posted by 9spaceking 9 months ago
conclusion: despite lannan's unrefuted arguments that the Dark Side had more religious freedom and also that the Jedi began the mind-controlling first, Ima highlighted that Palpatine only had his own interests in mind, that Lannan had little to no evidence that Palpatine was taking over for any other reason, and even though Ima didn't continue asserting his civilian casualty argument, it had very strong suggestions that were confusingly addressed by Lannan. If Ima had said his crucial points earlier, it might have been easier for him. Regardless, Ima wins due to winning more important arguments. Another interesting note is how Lannan went of on a tangent with "jedi oppose technology" but never:
A) Why is this immoral?
B) How do they oppose technology?
It's sort of close, but not really, since we all watched the movie and knew the Dark side was the antagonists from the start.
Posted by 9spaceking 9 months ago
RFD part six
It seems lannan has managed to turn the tides in the last round, but we'll just see...
-Ima repeats his theocracy argument. Unnecessary, but good job. But he still fails to address "Dark Side gives more freedom" argument.
-Ima uses the "palpatine started a civil war" argument, which makes sense--it is NOT illegal just as lannan claimed, but it is very dangerous.
-Ima points out again that technology isn't advanced. I don't know what lannan did and ima probably didn't know either. Whatever.
-Ima addresses once more his civilian argument. Why didn't he do this before? But lannan missed it anyways.
-Mind control less lasting than torture.
-Uses the fact that Palpatine started the war... in order to gain dictorial powers. Makes sense and is consistent with everything.
-Sidious taxed trade routes in order to take over as chancellor. Again...why didn't he say this before?
-It was stated that Alderaan's destruction didn't matter for Leia's confession...previously unaddressed by lannan.
-Ima is right; Lannan didn't really give any evidence that 6 year olds could teach each other about the force
-Ima suggests it is possible for droid armies to be encrypted, compared to human cloning. We're not sure which is more effective, but even assuming Lannan is correct about humans' benefits to driods, we have to assume Ima's correct--HOWEVER he fails to address that there IS evidence in the movies for the Jedi starting the cloning first.
-Ima repeats his "maximize civilian casualties". This makes sense, but he has no need to repeat it so many times.
-Sidious invaded his own planet for Sith's interests.
Posted by 9spaceking 9 months ago
RFD parte five
-Lannan points out that Hans Solo was only able to mock due to dark sides' freedom. Despite such, he fails to uphold his initial point that Jedi tried to destroy religion, moving back to a strawman of allowing freedom vs limited freedom (but is NOT allowed in the Jedi religion a lack of freedom? That is what he does not address!)
-Lannan counters the mind tricks with Nass being able to be fooled [but not the NO PAIN argument]
-Lanann claims that palpatine was granted his powers. Note that through this debate, he kept on using the special pleading fallacy (imabench struggling to keep up), going from "he did it because of finance reform act" in addition to "jedi betrayal" combined together to now say that he was merely doing his job. We're not sure who's right and who's not, but Lannan gave no evidence in the previous rounds, so basically mostly THIS round is what counts.
-Lannan stresses that it WAS a coup (Why only now? Why not round one?) because Palaptine was following the laws yet still arrested.
-Lannan stressed that war grew worse with the republic, which is confusing since it is not relevant to "Jedi oppose technology".
-Lannan gives evidence for the slavery/clone argument.
-Lannan says that the FRA was given multiple times and thus it is relevant.
-Lannan points out that light side destroyed economics of Dark side.
-Points out that Leia's truth would have ended the war (but is that preferable?)
-Stresses chancellor was doing everything right
-blames mind trick to be able to get out padawans
-Brainwashing vs self-control. Interesting argument.
-He extends slavery, compares droids to humans.
"We do not understand the entire Galaxy's politics, but one thing does exist. The fact that the CIS ceded from the Republic over taxes. If a group planets could cede over that then imagine what the politics are on that planet? " I don't get how this is relevant or supports. Rhetorical question doesn't mean anything.
Posted by 9spaceking 9 months ago
RFD parte four
Ima begins tackling the round two arguments. Let us see if he notices the same errors I did.
-Ima tackles the fact that there is no evidence of imposing religion, and infers with the small amount of Jedi (despite their immense power) that there is no way they can impose religion. Based upon logic and the lack of evidence from Lannan, I have to say ima is winning this argument, but we shall see.
- Ima states that Jedi could only influence the weak-minded. We're not sure if obi-wan is truly trustworthy or not, but lannan will surely address that.
-Ima uses the fact that Sidious was arrested under law and not disposed, due to his actions and not his religion. This makes logic sense and isn't refuted by Lannan.
-Ima corrects Lannan and says it was NOT a "coup", which makes sense.
-Ima points out that ant-advanced-technology was also had no evidence (I noticed this too)
-Slavery is refuted by the fact that the clone army was basically slavery in itself (BUT NOT addressing Lannan's accusation that Jedi also used slavery)
-Ima dismisses the Finance Reform Act as irrelevant.
-Ima uses multiple sources to support that it would have been bad for the Death Stars to be destroyed. [This is a bit confusing because the rebels destroy the DS, not the emperor, but we'll see how Lannan refuted this)
-Leia's lie is addressed by the fact that the commander "wanted to blow it up anyways" (no evidence, but I can see where this came from)
-Ima uses the same "Arrest" argument against "dissolution of republic".
-Ima notes the alternative of jailing the Padawans, which seems viable enough (except they might get rescued).
-Ima crucially points out that mind control has no pain unlike torture (makes sense).
-Ima states Jedi Sifo Dyas is outside the movies.
-Ima notes Lannan's lack of evidence (this is true, we don't know if Palpatine really wanted to change the tax code)
Posted by 9spaceking 9 months ago
RFD parte three
-Lannan tries to suggest that "Leia's lie would led to Dantooine's destruction", however, I can't really see how this is relevant. He also didn't really support that lives would be saved with any backing.
-Lannan stresses that the consolidation was justified because "the coup" was attempted, but I don't really see how his arguments prove in any way that the Jedi have contradicted their own motto.
-Killing padawans "is justified by war", or so Lannan13 says. Yet, did it ultimately kill the traitors? Well, the good guys obviously won in the end, so wasn't it completely pointless anyways?
-Lannan moves the goalpost from torture by itself to compare it to mind control, but that's understandable.
-Lannan claims that the JEDI was the one to start cloning, not the sith. We shall see how Ima refutes this.
-Lannan compares Mega-weapons to MAD's. We shall see if this comparison stands or not.
-Lannan takes the risk of trying to use mind control to also defeat "breaking deals".
-Lannan uses corruption as the excuse for Palpatine to become Chancellor. We'll see if this works or not.
Posted by 9spaceking 9 months ago
RFD parte two
-Imabench states that the alderaan was destroyed. Assuming that the planet does belong to the Jedi, then this is a solid point supported by his source.
-Ima states that the Republic's reorganization and says that the former Republic doesn't want that. We don't see any evidence for this, but it is quite persuasive nevertheless.
-Ima gives undeniable evidence of siths killing padawans (kids)
-Ima gives torture as a use by sith (but this is weakened by his own acknowledgement of the other side)
-Ima claims that human cloning purely for organized warfare goes against the will of a people, a logical and strong argument.
-Megaweapons is the next argument, and he focuses once more on how they don't care to minimize civilian casualties, a strong suggestion
-Ima gives a very good argument about sith breaking their deals. I will keep in this mind for Lannan to refute.
-Palpatine "seizes power in undemocratic fashion", displaying his evilness.

And onto the rebuttals.
Posted by 9spaceking 9 months ago
RFD parte one
Pro's arguments in round one:
-Dark side is not so dark because they "embrace all emotions"; while Jedi impose their religion on the council.
WEAK! He never supports exactly why embracing all emotions is good and exactly how the Jedi "demonize the humans". But we'll see how ima addresses this.
-Jedi uses mind tricks....and tried a "coup" (where's the evidence for this?)
Jedi opposes advanced technology (how is this relevant?)
-Jedi uses slavery
Here lannan uses a strawman argument, claiming to argue for use of slavery, but in reality posing the easier argument for lack of enforcement against slavery. We'll see if ima notices this.
-The Finance Bill failed--but how does this make the jedi "bad"?
-Death Star might have gained a lot of money
He has many claims, but he only says it is "likely" and we don't even know which sources support this one.

Now that I analyze all Lannan's arguments and their fallacies, let us move onto Imabench's arguments and their fallacies.
Posted by whiteflame 9 months ago
>Reported vote: 9spaceking// Mod action: Removed<

3 points to Con (Arguments). Reasons for voting decision: while the other arguments are streneously back-and-forth and difficult to see who really won, I believe imabench wins the crucial arguments that the dark side has to resort to immoral tactics such as torture, which has a much longer and lasting effect than mind control, and cloning, which lannan hardly addressed.

[*Reason for removal*] The voter has to address arguments made by both sides and not just point to what they deem to be a winning argument from Con.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 9 months ago
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Reasons for voting decision: In comments
Vote Placed by ResponsiblyIrresponsible 9 months ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Null because #screwfrozen. But, really, this is a placeholder. I'll vote later.