The Instigator
Lordknukle
Pro (for)
Winning
17 Points
The Contender
vmpire321
Con (against)
Losing
12 Points

Resolved: The Proverb "Time is Money" is valid.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 6 votes the winner is...
Lordknukle
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/23/2011 Category: Society
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 8,981 times Debate No: 20026
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (8)
Votes (6)

 

Lordknukle

Pro

This is for Weirdman's Tournament.

Resolved: The Proverb "Time is Money" is valid.

Time- The indefinite continued progress of existence and events in the past, present, and future regarded as a whole.

Money- A current medium of exchange in the form of coins and banknotes; coins and banknotes collectively.

Valid- Is correct

DEFINITIONS SHALL NOT BE EXPLOITED.

Round 1: Acceptance
Round 2: Arguments
Round 3: Rebuttals
Round 4: Conclusion and Rebuttals (To balance out the last word advantage, PRO can rebut two points while CON can only rebut one).

Good Luck!
vmpire321

Con

Hmm. I accept and hopefully this will be fun!

--Definition--
I believe that the proverb "Time is Money" should be defined as a whole. The words have to be combined together in order to produce the full effect and meaning of the proverb.

I think it is supposed to mean something along the lines of "time shouldn't be wasted as it could be used for something valuable"

------

Well, I await your response and good luck to you too.

Debate Round No. 1
Lordknukle

Pro

I thank my opponent for accepting this debate.

I accept the basis of my opponent's definition but I believe that it should be refined to:

"Time shouldn't be wasted as it could be useful for making money"

Now onto my arguments:

Opportunity Costs

Opportunity costs are a loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen. It is an economically accepted worldwide term. For example, two hours spent in a meeting will have come at the cost of not spending time with your children or checking email. Opportunity costs state that the entity of time, however used, always has possible potential gain. Some of this potential gain could be money. Therefore, time is money.

Time and Money

This point is very straight forward: you need time to make money. The process of making money, whether it be through a job or through stocks, all take time. Therefore, money cannot be made without time. Hence, time is money. This point, although very short, is an almost irrefutable and an extremely important contention.

Time could be used for making money

This is somewhat an extension of the previous arguments with examples:

Say Person X is at work.
His work pays money.
However, to earn that money he must spend time (which is impossible otherwise).
Therefore, time is money.

Say Person Y is at a store.
During this time, he could be working and making money.
Therefore, according to the definition of "Time shouldn't be wasted as it could be useful for making money", time is money.

These contentions have been very short as I plan to direct my focus on my opponent's arguments.

Good Luck!

vmpire321

Con

Hopefully this will be a fun debate. :)

In order for me to win this debate, I only have to show that the proverb "Time is Money" is incorrect occasionally. The definition of valid, as provided by my opponent is "is correct". The definition of correct is "conforming to fact or truth; free from error; accurate." Therefore, my opponent must show that in all circumstances this proverb is true, and I only need to show it is not true in some circumstances in order to prove it is not "free from error".


==Arguments==

What's the difference?
Time can be used to make money, but it is not actually money. Here's an analogy to create a better picture. In most cases, a teacher is needed for a proper education. But that doesn't necessary mean that if you had a teacher, you got a good education. It varies -- a child could choose not to learn, you could get a bad teacher, etc. Most people have a choice to make money throughout time, but just because time exists, it doesn't mean that you have money.

----Literal Meaning----
For now, I shall use literal meanings.

What is the purpose of money?
Money is used as a medium of exchange, unit of account, and a store of value[1].
1) Medium of Exchange -- With money, you only have to 'pay' for the things that you wish to own, instead of using the 'barter system' where you directly exchange for goods and services. Now, can you pay someone in 'Time'? Sadly, no. You cannot give up "X" amount of your life and increase the seller's life by "X" amount. Simply put, you cannot exchange time.
2) Unit of Account -- Money can be a standard measurement of the value of goods, services, etc. Furthermore, money is fungible and countable. "Time" cannot be used in a similar way. You simply cannot measure goods as "X" Time in order to find out a goods value.
3) Store of Value -- Money can also be stored and then be retrieved and then still be used as a "Medium of Exchange". Time doesn't function the same. You cannot "store" parts of your life away for 'safe keeping'.

Another sources provides the following uses: Survival, Comfort, Identity, To Impress Others, To Control, Freedom, Spiritual Growth [2].
1) Survival -- Money is needed in order to gain many of the most basic needs of life -- food, clothes, shelter, etc. However, 'Time' cannot function the same as money. In some circumstances, the passage of time doesn't mean that you are getting the most basic needs of life. Frankly, the following situation cannot happen. "X" person is sitting down, passing time in order to gain money. He/she believes that because time is passing, he/she is getting food, clothes, shelter, etc. However, that is not the case.
2) Comfort -- Comfort is one step up from survival. You gain comfort from higher quality goods/services. Similarly, the passage of time doesn't mean you are getting comfort. Most humans cannot gain comfort or happiness from the prospect of time passing. To further your imagination, picture a state in which you cannot move, feel, smell, taste, hear, anything. You can only wait for time to tick away. Without a doubt, one can practically die from boredom. In a different sense, the passing of time doesn't mean happiness. In fact, most people are scared of death, and death is closer with each day.
3)Identity-- Owning things builds ego. One doesn't gain ego from knowing that they are young. In fact, from what I've experienced, the younger ones are often bullied by older children.
--I've decided to stop here.--

----The Message--
Language changes and meanings change. Proverbs change too - because it is subjective language. There are many different opinions and views on what this proverb means and what it is trying to communicate. Throughout my counterexamples you may or may not see a few different meanings or alterations of this proverb. Here's a couple.
1) The proverb "Time is Money" is suggesting that when you are doing things, you should be as quick as you can to finish it. Why? The more time it takes, the more money you are losing. However, this isn't always true.
2) The proverb "Time is Money" can also mean something else. Money is often seen as something valuable and not to be wasted. This proverb can suggest that Time is to be treated the same way.
3) This proverb can also be interpreted as Time should be used for money.


Counterexamples

1) Occasionally, you invest in stocks to make some extra money. Since the days you could first talk, your parents have drilled into you that "Time is Money", and you have learned to try to accomplish things as quickly as possible. One day you get a call from a certain Mr. "X". He claims that a company is about to release a hot product, and it's stocks are relatively cheap. It's an investment of a lifetime -- and you have to invest now or you'll miss it. It is quite obvious - "Time is Money" and as more time passes by, you will miss this opportunity completely. You rush to buy in, unaware that you are one of the hundreds of people that got caught in a scam. Alas, if you simply have waited to confirm the validity, you wouldn't have lost nearly all of your money. Time is not money.

2) You have recently graduated from a top school, but at a great cost. Your family couldn't afford as much as you wished, so you depended on student loans. Nearly $100,000 is on your back, and interest it making it expand. As you leave college, you expect plenty of job offers with a high paying salary, but everything that greets you is a "no." You are desperate for any job now. You were taught "Time is Money", so you settled for a job that is far beneath you, far from what you expected. When you compare the salary you are receiving and your debt, bills, costs, etc., you become depressed and sad at the life you brought upon yourself. You jump off a building in order to relieve you misery. Little did you know that if you simply searched further for a job, you would have found one that satisfied your heart. Time is not money.

3) You are a diligent worker, and also a strong believer in the proverb "Time is Money." You constantly surround yourself with work, and care about nothing except for doing your job. Your days quickly pass by -- and soon you are left in the dust with nothing but money. No family, no friends, not even a pet -- it died years ago from negligence. Your strong belief has left nothing that can fill your heart. You die living a sad life. Time is not money.

4) You are a recent high school graduate. You've been debating the costs and the benefits of college and you've decided not to go. Besides, "Time is Money" and you don't want to waste 4~6 years that you could be working. Not wanting to waste time, you quickly leave and join the work force. However, you didn't realize that high school graduates have higher rates of unemployment and have lower annual income, compared to college graduates. Your prospect of making money was met by poverty, unemployment, and above all, no money [3]. Time is not money.


Sources
[1]http://moneyrelease.com...
[2]http://www.themeaningofmoney.com...
[3]http://articles.businessinsider.com...

Debate Round No. 2
Lordknukle

Pro

I thank my opponent for his arguments.

It seems as if he is exploiting the definitions for his own gain while backtracking on what he said earlier. He said:
"I believe that the proverb "Time is Money" should be defined as a whole. The words have to be combined together in order to produce the full effect and meaning of the proverb."
"I think it is supposed to mean something along the lines of "time shouldn't be wasted as it could be used for something valuable"

In doing so, my opponent has provided a definition which I accepted. He, however, has deciding to back track on it and use specific words to define the meaning of the proverb even though he clearly stated that it must be defined as a whole.

I propose that we go back to the original definition of "Time shouldn't be wasted as it could be used for something valuable", which both of us have accepted. From here forth, I will assume that definition to be correct.

I clearly stated in the rules that definition are not to be exploited. My opponent has ignored this rule.

It is a clear exploitation when my opponent is relying on simply proving one case of "time is not money" to be correct, and therefore winning the debate.

The proverb was never designed as a literal translation or comparison; very few proverbs are. It is designed as a metaphorical comparison between the amount of time spent and the amount of money earned.

As is with everything, there are specific examples that go against the proverb, if taken too literally. However, we must assume a position of "most likely" or "majority". If the majority of examples show this proverb to be affirmed, then it becomes affirmed.
Rebuttals
______________________________________________________

"Time can be used to make money, but it is not actually money. Here's an analogy to create a better picture. In most cases, a teacher is needed for a proper education. But that doesn't necessary mean that if you had a teacher, you got a good education. It varies -- a child could choose not to learn, you could get a bad teacher, etc. Most people have a choice to make money throughout time, but just because time exists, it doesn't mean that you have money."

As the previous definition which we have both accepted stated, "Time shouldn't be wasted as it could be used for something valuable". My opponent has affirmed the resolution in the first sentence of his opening remarks. Time can be used for money.

Even though the example has affirmed my position, I feel the need to attack it.

The purpose of this proverb is to show that, as previously stated, time shouldn't be wasted as it can be used for money". In fact, this is true for educated vs. non-educated students. In fact, the unemployment gap and therefore the salary gap between educated and non educated students is huge. We can infer from this that education, which takes time, lets a person earn more money in the future. Hence, time is money.

Purpose of Money

I do not see how this section is relevant to the case at hand, but I would like to add one more definition.

Potential Earnings- Money can be seen as both in a present physical sense and a future sense. This is evident in the basic degree of economics by the concept of PDV (Present Discounted Value).

Other Sources

Again, my opponent is taking this proverb too literally.

Survival- By the definition stated by you and I, time shouldn't be wasted as it could be used for something useful, such as making money. Nowhere in that definition does it state that if you sit around wasting time, you will be guaranteed money. This is simply not the case. In this scenario, time could potentially be used for making money and surviving by working, stealing, etc...

Comfort- Refer to Survival. The passing of time does not guarantee potential or current earnings. It simply states that with the passing of time, these will be possible. This point is incredibly important to the case at hand.

Identity- Not sure what my opponent means, but I think that this is highly irrelevant to the case at hand. It case it is similar to the above two, refer to them.

Potential Meanings

Perhaps in real life, there are many potential meanings of this proverb due to subjection. However, for the purposes of this debate, we must only assume one of these meanings, which has been defined earlier.
"Time shouldn't be wasted as it could be used for something valuable".
From hereon forth, and as it was supposed to be in previous rounds, is that time could be used for making money.

My opponent has provided several "counter-examples" as to why time is money. I will refute all of them.

1. Again, the proverb does not guarantee that spending time will necessarily make money. It simply states that spending time could be used to make money. Also, the analogy that you are using is highly flawed as it employs an outside force that has nothing to do with the proverb. Without the outside force of the scam, the analogy would in fact be correct. Hence, time is money.

2. Appeal to emotion much? Anyways, refer to number one. The proverb does not guarantee success. You are using highly specific examples with numerous outside factors that have little to do with the proverb.

3. Well... the proverb never said that you will be happy. You affirmed my case in the sense that spending all of his time on the job made him money.

4. The concept of time is money does not mean that you should rush it. It could go the other way by saying that "Time shouldn't be rushed, as more time spent on something will make you more money". However, this has nothing to do with our debate as "time is money" has been defined earlier.

Conclusion
  • My opponent is exploiting definitions which he, himself confirmed.
  • The definition is "time shouldn't be wasted as it could be used for something valuable".
  • My opponent has often affirmed my position within his arguments.
  • I have adequately refuted his arguments.

I urge the voters to vote PRO

(1)http://articles.businessinsider.com...
vmpire321

Con

I thank PRO for his response.

Sadly, I've made a poor, perhaps fatal mistake. I forgot that I provided my own definitions, and thus I didn't check to see if my opponent had accepted my definitions. I suppose this is a result of procrastination -- I tend to forget things overtime.

At this point, I feel that recovering is nearly impossible. I have violated the rules and all of my arguments were based on PRO's old definitions.

----
I personally believe that the definition I proposed would be unfair -- it gives me almost no ground to defend. How is one supposed to prove that wasting time is beneficial? And how doesn't want to use their time for something valuable?
----

I think that it is too late to attempt to resolve and argue definitions. Furthermore, I can not find any arguments for my side. I have no option other than to give up. I'll leave it up to the voters to decide.
Debate Round No. 3
Lordknukle

Pro

Thank you.

Not much I can say here except for

VOTE PRO
vmpire321

Con

Well, let the voting begin.
Debate Round No. 4
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by Wallstreetatheist 5 years ago
Wallstreetatheist
I explicitly demonstrated my position. If you would like me to further detail the failure of your argumentation, I will continue at your leisure.
Posted by Lordknukle 5 years ago
Lordknukle
why the fvck are there so many vote bombs????

Voldy no like.
Posted by Lordknukle 5 years ago
Lordknukle
WallStreet, If you paid attention, you would have realized that I never had to prove that the possibility is 1.00. Merely that it "could" be used for making money. You can find the definition in Round 1.
I don't really know why you gave Con conduct, considering that he pretty much forfeited. This is also not a sources debate so a sources point should be quite irrelevant right now.
Posted by vmpire321 5 years ago
vmpire321
....****! Forgot about my own definitions while I was typing up the arguments... -.-
Posted by Lordknukle 5 years ago
Lordknukle
No rebuttals.
Posted by vmpire321 5 years ago
vmpire321
I always get confused with this...

Do you mean no as in "No, there are rebuttals"

or do you mean "No rebuttals"
Posted by Lordknukle 5 years ago
Lordknukle
no
Posted by vmpire321 5 years ago
vmpire321
Hmm. So no rebuttals for this round?
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by BlackVoid 5 years ago
BlackVoid
Lordknuklevmpire321Tied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: Countering the previous vote's lack of an RFD.
Vote Placed by kyro90 5 years ago
kyro90
Lordknuklevmpire321Tied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Both were pretty well thought out, but I believe that con truly deserves these points.
Vote Placed by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
Lordknuklevmpire321Tied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: counter votebomb wallstreet athiest. poor rfd I agree with pro
Vote Placed by Wallstreetatheist 5 years ago
Wallstreetatheist
Lordknuklevmpire321Tied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Agreed with Pro at the start. Pro exhibited the most abject component of debate: technicality lawyering. Pro's entire case rests on an irrelevant conclusion: since there is the potential for money to be made with a quantity of time, time = money. Possibility is not a 1.00 correlation which is what the resolution states. Con attacked pro's case effectively with counter examples, literal, figurative, and applicable meanings. Con's point of non-fungibility was very strong. Sources ->
Vote Placed by Raisor 5 years ago
Raisor
Lordknuklevmpire321Tied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Con you gave up too easily.
Vote Placed by Mr.Infidel 5 years ago
Mr.Infidel
Lordknuklevmpire321Tied
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Total points awarded:31 
Reasons for voting decision: I am giving con the conduct point just because he humbly forfeited rather than needlessly prolonging the debate.