The Instigator
lannan13
Pro (for)
Winning
10 Points
The Contender
Brant96
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Resolved: The United Kingdom should return Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
lannan13
Voting Style: Open with Elo Restrictions Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/20/2015 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,649 times Debate No: 78831
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (16)
Votes (2)

 

lannan13

Pro

This debate is inreqards to the "Irish" problem. I am hoping that someone from the UK would accept this debate, but others are truely welcomed.

*Disclaimer: Despite my support for the Republic of Ireland to regain Northern Ireland I DO NOT support the Irish Republican Army or any other terroristic organization nor any attacks upon the UK.*

Rules
First Round is acceptance and definitions by Pro and acceptance by con.
Second Round is Opening arguments, NO REBUTTALS.
Third Round is rebuttals.
Forth Round is rebuttals and conclusion.
No trolling.
No K's or Counter-plans
No semantics, the definitions provided are the ones to be used in this debate.
BOP is shared.
This is a History debate, not misc.
If any of these points are violated then all 7 points shall go to the opposition of the one who has violated the rules.

Republic of Ireland- a republic in NW Europe occupying most of Ireland: established as the Irish Free State (a British dominion) in 1921 and declared a republic in 1949; joined the European Community (now the European Union) in 1973. Official languages: Irish (Gaelic) and English. Currency: euro. Capital: Dublin. Pop: 4 775 982 (2013 est). Area: 70 285 sq km (27 137 sq miles) (http://dictionary.reference.com...)

Northern Ireland- a political division of the United Kingdom, in the NE part of the island of Ireland. 5238 sq. mi. (13,565 sq. km).Capital: Belfast. (http://dictionary.reference.com...)
Brant96

Con

I graciously accept.
Debate Round No. 1
lannan13

Pro

In the 1600's the Protestant Revolution was in full swing. The Tudors had began to dispell the Irish Catholics out of the region known today as North Ireland in order to instill a Protestant population in the traditional Gaelic, Roman Catholic, Irish community. A few years later the English would invade Ireland again killing several thousand. 50,000 of the defeated Irish were forced to go off and live in slavery in the East Indies. [1] After the war King Cromwell William of Orange began the settlement of the Protestants in Ireland stripping of the Irish of their rights while Northern Ireland held English Elites. [1] Fun fact of the day, you don't where Orange on St. Patty's day or you get puntched. Why? It's because Orange was the color of King Cromwell William of Orange, the color of the English thrown. There have been countless acts of attrocity the British have committed, but one of the ones I'm going to talk about is that of the Bloody Sunday Mascre. In Derby, the British 1st Para, open fire upon innocent people. This killed 26 people and though many other acts have been committed this one received so much attention was due to it being so public. [5]



s://upload.wikimedia.org...; alt="" />


An interesting thing on how the division split up is that of Ireland voting for the Sinn Fein Party while Northern Ireland had voted for the Unionists. To get others to understand these Parties the Sinn Fein is a Republican Left Winged Secular party. The Irish Union Party or also known as the Irish Union Alliance, is the equivilance to the British Conservative Party. [2] Though the issue of Irish unification has been thrown around this is more of a Left-Right issue and is something that is a threat to the political process of these areas. To quote John Adams, "There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution." Last time I checked, Democracy means listening to opinions of others you do not like. Now before my opponent comes in and says that the Sinn Fein is also in Northern Ireland, we can still see that they are not as far left as the one in Ireland. It's like Liberal vs. Moderate for the example. The key fundamentals of democracy are being violated as people in Northern Ireland are ignoring the ideas of the Irish just because there's a political division. That is much like if the South ceded from the US again and formed the Republican States of America in order to escape the grasps of the blue states in the Northeast. The failure and resistance to assimulate is a threat to the democratic process. [3]

Roger Masters stated that there was one out of three situiations that I will list that necessitate Nationalism.

1. at an inter-group level, humans respond to competition or conflict by organizing into groups to either attack other groups or defend their group from hostile groups
2. at the intragroup level, individuals gain advantage through cooperation with others in securing collective goods that are not accessible through individual effort alone
3. on the individual level, self-interested concerns over personal fitness by individuals either consciously or subconsciously motivate the creation of group formation as a means of security [4]


As we can see here that there are several cases here that necessitates it. We can see that through British interevention the Irish have been seperated by Cromwell and now those in Northern Ireland fear joining the south. Why? They constantly are flooded by British propaganda stating that the Catholics will kill them all or something of that resort. They are brainwashed with this kind of propraganda due to fears from the Irish Republican Army. (see cartoon bellow) It wasn't until 2007 that the Northern Irish were given Direct Rule again. Before then the UK controlled the affairs of the region. This was to quell recent uprest in Belfast.





Sources
1. (O'Callaghan, Sean (2000). To Hell or Barbados. Brandon. p. 85.)
2. (B. M. Walker, 'Political affiliations' in Parliamentary Election Results in Ireland, 1801-1922 (Royal Irish Academy, 1978), xiv.)
3. (Diamond, L., Lecture at Hilla University for Humanistic Studies January 21, 2004: "What is Democracy")
4. (Motyl, Alexander, ed. (2001). Encyclopedia of Nationalism 1. San Diego: Academic Press.)
5. (Eamonn McCann (2006). The Bloody Sunday Inquiry – The Families Speak Out. London: Pluto Press.)

Brant96

Con

Brant96 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
lannan13

Pro

All points extended.
Brant96

Con

Brant96 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
lannan13

Pro

All points extended.

Thank you and please vote Pro!
Brant96

Con

Brant96 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
Link for missing picture. (https://en.wikipedia.org...)
Posted by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
I'll post an argument tomorrow
Posted by Brant96 2 years ago
Brant96
Gooood! Thanks for the challenge :)
Posted by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
You sure can, the historical aspect was to show that this debate has nothing to do with certain things, but a moral argument is okay to run.
Posted by Brant96 2 years ago
Brant96
I am slightly worried by the second to last point, do I have to argue from an exclusively historical standpoint or can I use moral justification?
Posted by Brant96 2 years ago
Brant96
I'd love to debate you, but I'm a DDO noob so can't accept the challenge apparently.
Posted by Balacafa 2 years ago
Balacafa
I m from the UK and I do disagree with you on this topic however I do not know enough about this to debate the topic..
Posted by Red_Dirt 2 years ago
Red_Dirt
How can I take the contrary position, after stating what a good idea I thought it for American Catholics to launch a crusade to restore Papal domination to Northern Ireland? I'm just asserting that they would not be capturing the territory for America, but for the church. Once captured, they could give America a break and stay there. After all, it is home. The Democrats can easily make up the lost votes with narco-state border crossings.
The English would not defend their territory. They cannot even defend parts of London, Lancashire, and Manchester from Islamic colonization. Think they would stand up to millions of battle howling Red Sox fans? No way.
Posted by Red_Dirt 2 years ago
Red_Dirt
I have a good idea. Why don't all the Irish-Americans pack off to Belfast on a crusade to exterminate non-Catholics, to finish the job they started in 1600 before they were stopped. Take Biden, the Kennedys, Bill De Blasio, The Bushes and Clintons, Reagans, Barack and Valerie with. Then, an even better idea. Once you are home, don't come back.
Posted by Davidregu 2 years ago
Davidregu
Northern Island was made seperate for a very important reason. Large groups of people don't want to leave the UK. Large groups of people want to leave also, but how is it fair to remove a group of people from a Union that they wat to be a part of. While I understand that you could say the same for the opposite, the republic of Ireland is easily accessable to Republicans/anti-union ciztens of NI.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Midnight1131 2 years ago
Midnight1131
lannan13Brant96Tied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by Balacafa 2 years ago
Balacafa
lannan13Brant96Tied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: ff