The Instigator
Logical-Master
Pro (for)
Losing
26 Points
The Contender
s0m31john
Con (against)
Winning
43 Points

Resolved: The user known as s0m31john ought to seriously consider reading the Naruto manga.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/6/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,224 times Debate No: 8092
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (34)
Votes (14)

 

Logical-Master

Pro

Greetings. The resolution is exactly as it says. I won't begin arguing until the second round since it hasn't yet occurred to me how I actually wish to argue this. My opponent is free to begin the debate with his first round or wait for me to begin in round 2. It matters little to me.

In addition, CON is more than free to define the resolution, but I reserve to the right to argue against his interpretation should I feel that it does not match the intentions of this debate (this is assuming he starts arguing in the first round).

Cheers and good luck. :D

Also, if it isn't much of a problem . . . I would like for my opponent to answer the following questions:

Question #1: What are your top 3 favorite anime/manga series (or any fictional series for that matter?
Question #2: What elements of these series drove you to like them?
s0m31john

Con

I'll let my opponent start the debate in Round 2, and will just use this round to answer his questions.

"Question #1: What are your top 3 favorite anime/manga series (or any fictional series for that matter?"

1) 5 Centimeters Per Second (http://en.wikipedia.org...)
2) Toradora! (http://en.wikipedia.org...)
3) Kodomo no Jikan (http://en.wikipedia.org...)

I could list a few more, because there are ones that I enjoyed just as much.
I will let my opponent look into the specifics of each show. I would recommend sites like MyAnimeList, AniDB, and Anime News Network to do so.

"Question #2: What elements of these series drove you to like them?"

1) 5 Centimeters Per Second
Surely my opponent knows of the website 4chan.org, more specifically their Animu & Mango board. When it is late you can usually find what are referred to as 'ronery threads'. They usually consist of references to sad romance anime, ;_; emoticons, misogyny, and stories from people who have never even been kissed. One of the poster child shows of these threads is '5 Centimeters per Second'. The movie is made up of three parts. Part 1 is the story of the two main characters meeting for the last time after they moved away from each other. Part 2 is the story of the guy in the place where he moved. In part 2 a new girl falls for him, but never works up the courage to ask him out because she realizes he still longed for his childhood love. Part 3 is about their lives as adults. The girl goes on to get married to someone she really doesn't like and the guy lives a boring lonely life dwelling on what could have been. I would recommend my opponent watch the entire movie, but if he doesn't have time he could at least watch the song at the end of the movie. (http://www.youtube.jp...) Be sure to pay attention to the lyrics.

2) Toradora!
The two main characters both have crushes on two different people, and they end up trying to help each other get together with their crush. In the process they actually fall for each other. Ryuuji the guy had a crush on a girl named Minori, and Minori knew and liked him back, but she stayed quiet because she wanted her friend (the other main character) Taiga to be happy with Ryuuji. In my opinion it's one of the best high school romance dramas of the past few years. I recommend my opponent watch two videos if he hasn't watched the series. The 2nd opening (http://www.youtube.jp...) Make sure you click HQ to watch it in high quality, the subtitles are easier to read that way. Also a fight scene between the main girl Taiga and a girl that rejected and hurt the guy she had a crush on. (http://www.youtube.jp...)

3) Kodomo no Jikan
I put this one on the list to break away from the romance genre. It's a show that Wikipedia says "uses lolicon as a story telling device". I watch it because of the cute characters and because it's a light hearted comedy. I also like the j-pop music from the show. (http://www.youtube.jp...) (http://www.youtube.jp...)

The only manga I have ever finished (caught up with) is the Kodomo no Jikan manga.
Debate Round No. 1
Logical-Master

Pro

Now having read my opponent's reasoning for his preferences, one thing is rather clear: My opponent is most certainly a romance enthusiast. I shall be providing a deeper analyzation of this fact in the next round based particularly on his comments concerning his anime choices (since I ended up starting ths round at the last minute. :D), but just be well awre that it is romantic potential which interests my opponent the most. This is most likely attributed to the fact that may very opponent craves romance of his own in his own life (which one can conclude merely through reading his various "girl trouble" comments on the forums).

Now why did I feel the need to point this out? Very simple. You see, although the plot isn't mainly driven by romance, the fact of the matter is that romance is a pretty large yet underlying element of the series. Even more important, both my opponent and Naruto happen to be in the same situation. Whereas my opponent is constantly depressed or annoyed over the fact that women in his eyes are falling head over heels for the guys who behave like "@ssholes' and essentially meet the "badboy" idiosycrasy to a "T", the same is the case for Naruto. Throughout the series, we see him and his romantic interest in the leading female character (Sakura), only for her to ignore him (and even think of him of "some loser" in preference of Sasuke (who meets the badboy arechetype, which many women love). Like my opponent, Naruto too is annoyed at what appears to be unfairness or absurdity, but can't really do much about it.

Throughout the series, Sakura matures pass her craving for "the bad boy" (although it must be noted that some of her feeling still exist, thus an invetibale confrontation centering around Naruto, Sakura and Sasuke shall no doubt occur). Sasuke and begans to see and understand Naruto for more than what he appears to be externally and slowly manages to develop feelings of her own. Granted, the manga has yet to end, so I cannot reveal how this love story ends . . . but for all intensive purposes, it is pretty realistic (by realistic, I mean to say that it is easily relatable) (which is a rare quality for a shounen series) and should no doubt prove intriguing for someone of my opponent's taste.

I shall be listing a few more positive aspects in the next round, but the above one is to be considered the primary aspect which should lead my opponent to seriously considering reading this manga.

And that's all for now. :D
s0m31john

Con

20 minutes to post my argument, I put SNSD - Gee on loop, and here I go:

Like I said in the comments I went to 4chan's /a/ board for advice. The main reason I did this was because I do not know much about Naruto, so I figured they could tell me if there was much truth in my opponent's argument.

The entire thread can be viewed in this unedited screencap:
http://skipall.com...
Beware, it contains some adult language. I do not support the insults directed at my opponent.

They say you are pushing the one very thin romance into something much bigger than it actually is. They also say my anime favorites show that I am pretty much incompatible with Naruto.

I'll post some quotes from the thread:
"Don't try to make the series more that what it is. It is about power levels "
"Anyone who says Naruto is worth your time is a liar."
"The guy is saying true stuff but... hes obviously pushing ONE romance in Naruto, which is a shounen and the romance is very thin-to-nonexistent, which if you like MELODRAMATIC sh*t like Clannad, you won't like."

Fee free to pull any other quotes from the 4chan tread.

I would ask my opponent to find another reason as to why I would like Naruto, because his claims of romance seem to amount to little. I do not want to put up with tons of filler to get such little romance, when there are anime devoted to forced drama and romance. If that is the "primary aspect which should" lead to me to want anything to do with Naruto, let's just say it's not working.
Debate Round No. 2
Logical-Master

Pro

Ladies and gentleman, the fact that people ended up ranting and raving about me (someone whom these people don't even know) (quite childishly might I add) (hell, some even childishly insulted my opponent without any good reason) should alone dictate something about the credibility of the participants on the thread my opponent is citing. Of course, even looking past that, I cannot help but find comments like "Don't try to make the series more that what is it. It is about power levels", when there is never even a single instance of "power" even being measured (not even an instant that comes close to this) should further demonstrate that the aforementioned thread's credibility is comparible to Michael Jackson's credibility when claiming that he isn't a pedophile. Naruto is a series which is by far different from the likes of Dragon Ball Z (if that were the insinuation in the above . . and the difference being stimulated from the fact that most of the emphasis is placed on the storytelling, rather than the actual fights).

That said, there was about one or two comments from people who may have actually at least READ through the series. Particularly, the third quote which may opponent cites as the user agrees that what I am saying is true. However, let us refer back to what I initially dictated during round 1:

I quote myself: "You see, although the plot isn't mainly driven by romance, the fact of the matter is that romance is a pretty large yet underlying element of the series."

I wholeheartedly stand by this quote and ask for readers to place emphasis on "large yet underlying element." Essentially, the thing about Naruto is that the author has two target audiences: Typical children who are just looking for a show centered around heroism as well as lots of action packed fights AND adults who are looking for something deeper and enlightening. When I had cited romance as being the primary reason for my opponent to consider reading Naruto, I pictured him as being in the second audience. Based on many of the comments which I saw in the thread, I'd say many of them only see Naruto in the light of that which the first audience sees and that the few who may actually be reading the manga see it for the same.

However, for those who have the needs of the other target audience, well, merely ONE aspect (the specific one I refer to in this debate: Naruto/Sakura) is multilayered, while constantly impacting the series: http://heronite.livejournal.com....

Indeed, as the relationship between Naruto and Sakura stands to signify our human desire for being accepted by others. This is a prominent theme throughout Naruto and essentially something which mostly anyone would be able to well relate to.

In essence, what I'm saying is that my opponent would be intrigued by the sheer existence of the romance itself (that which he has provided no real objection against other than insisting that there isn't enough of it) as well as the meaning behind it and perhaps the reason we as individuals may even find ourselves seeking romance in the first place. In others, the opportunity for enlightenment.

Due to time constraints once again (bad luck more like it), I shall have to save my heavy instances of elaboration for the next round (won't be listing any further elements of Naruto for him to pursue until the next round).from

But to end this round, I'd point out the fact that (as shown in the comment section), my opponent does in fact like shounen anime as well as indicated by the reasoning which I submitted below (something else which I shall elaborate further in R4).

Tootles. :D
s0m31john

Con

s0m31john forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Logical-Master

Pro

Logical-Master forfeited this round.
s0m31john

Con

My opponent says the manga contains no filler, which may be true by his definition of filler but let's take a look. Naruto has 46 volumes so far. Now that could be all story, but honestly if one has to take 46 volumes to complete a story they need to rethink it. To me it looks like they're just beating a dead horse because they can get money out of it.

My opponent has established that there is a romance subplot, but I do not want just a subplot. I want a romance plot.

My opponent says I am wrong to say Naruto is all about Ninjas, but let's see.

On MyAnimeList (an anime and manga database) the synopsis of the Naruto manga uses the word Ninja 3 times. That is a lot considering the synopsis is only a few lines. (http://myanimelist.net...)

"Despite his lack of talent in many areas of ninjutsu, Naruto strives for only one goal: to gain the title of Hokage, the strongest ninja in his village."

"Naruto works towards his dream with fellow friends Sasuke and Sakura and mentor Kakashi as they go through many trials and battles that come with being a ninja."

On Anime News Network (another anime database) the synopsis is pretty much the same. (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com...) Blah blah blah Naruto has to fight to become the strongest, ninjas, etc.

I am not interested in manga about little boys that have to become the strongest to save the world and whatnot.

My opponent's movie arguments don't hold up because when looking up Naruto ninja related words do show up as a description for the main story. When looking up things like V for Vendetta and Huckleberry Finn things like Superhero and water rafting don't show up as descriptions for the main plot.

My opponent brings up that I am a fan of Fullmetal Alchemist, a popular shounen series. This can be explained simply with nostalgia and it does not prove that I should even give Naruto a chance. There are many specific things that adults like because they liked them as a kid. Take for example an adult that liked the cartoon Thundercats as a kid. He can continue liking Thundercats as an adult and get away with it by saying it was part of his childhood. It does not mean that he should even consider giving more (old or new) cartoons a chance. In fact he probably wouldn't like them and the only reason he likes Thundercats is due to nostalgia.

As I have shown the Naruto manga contains a ton of volumes and chapters (common of dead horse beating money making shounen). I see no reason why I should start reading such a large manga when there are manga suited way better for my specific tastes.

I concede to my opponent that it would be easy to hide my reading Naruto, but my dislike for the fanbase is still to great. I do not want to become what I despise.
Debate Round No. 4
34 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Rezzealaux 7 years ago
Rezzealaux
I LIKE THIS DEBATE! Too bad I didn't read it when it actually finished.
Posted by AnimeFanTony 7 years ago
AnimeFanTony
The debate says read the manga.
Posted by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
I hate fillers.
Posted by FlashFire 8 years ago
FlashFire
I stopped watching Naruto because of the great amount of filler episodes. The amount is terrible.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
================================
NOT PART OF THE DEBATE
================================

Eh, I had intended so much more for this debate, but have constantly been vanquished by more important matters to attend to. I think what I've said for my round is sufficient, but this was more of a debate which I was interested in content rather than actually winning, so I'm a bit disappointed in all of my rotten luck. Oh well. :(

Later.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
And thus, I believe I've shown that my opponent ought to seriously consider reading the Naruto manga. We must keep in mind that the romance aspect is something he can relate to and being enlightened by, that deep down, he likes shounen series (as indicated by him liking FMA), that he could read this manga at any time of his choosing (to suggest that he will NEVER have the time or patience to read one chapter [keep in mind that chapters are on average 18 pages that can be read within 5 minutes tops] during any instance which I've listed is far too unlikely). Finally, it would be relatively easy to deceive his friends and keep them from knowing what was up. All good reasons to seriously consider reading the Naruto manga.

Thanks for the debate!
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
RE:If I am to start reading more there are many more manga more suited to my specific tastes than Naruto."

On the contrary. The easy to relate to romance as well as the underlying theme behind said romance makes it one of the most suited manga that caters to my opponent's interest.

RE:I also care about what other people think about me.

Who says anyone else would have to know when my opponent when be reading this manga or that he would even be reading it in the first place? He could keep it a secret. My opponent is good at keeping secrets as we d know that he is one who hides his potential romantic feelings regarding other woman whom he is around (at least this was the case while he was in high school).

RE: "They put up with my anime and manga mainly because I don't watch mainsteam shounen like Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece. If I start reading Naruto and anyone were to find out I would would be labeled as one of those headband wearing kids that sits in the back of the classroom drawing anime."

Fortunately, it is rather simple to prevent people from finding out. What are my opponent's friends going to do? Constantly monitor what he reads on his computer (keep in mind that all of the Naruto manga can be read online and for free)? People finding out is highly unlikely for my opponent if he plays his reading schedule smart.

Not to mention that if any of them ever caught him in the act, he could say that he was simply laughing at how bad the material he was reading was. The "so bad that it's good" mentality is rather common in the US, so his alibi would be believable.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Now although it is true that Naruto does not possess cute girls (actually, cute adult women, but that's besides the point) doing cute things, we know that my opponent does has have his taste limited to this criteria as can be seen by the fact that he is a fan of Full Metal Alchemist (a show which most certainly does not revolve around cute girls doing cute things). Like Naruto, it is also a shounen anime. If my opponent is willing to give that shounen anime a shot, there is little to no reason not to consider giving the Naruto manga a shot as well.

"Also as I've stated before I have only ever read one manga completely. This is because I simply do not have the time or patience to read any more."

Fortunately, the topic does not list a certain time at which my opponent reads the Naruto manga. Hence, he could very well read one chapter each time he had nothing better to do (ideally, when he is traveling, is waiting on something or is in fact retired). Incidentally, such a limited schedule would also solve the problem concerning patience. These possibilities make it rather easy to consider reading the manga.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
"I do not watch anime because I want an underlying romance theme hinted at. I like full frontal harem and manly tears shedding anime. I do not see why I should waste my time reading and or watching tons of filler (what Naruto is known for) just for some underlying deeper message my opponent thinks is there."

1) As the resolution indicates (and I really do like using the word "as" ;) ), we're talking about whether or not my opponent should seriously consider reading the manga. The manga contains no filler. Filler is an anime invention used to keep the anime from catching up with a manga which is still in the process of completion.

2) As for whether or not there is an underlying message, the purpose of the link of the previous post was to establish this, by illustrating plenty of what is implied by the Naruto/Sakura subplot.

" He says Naruto focuses more on story telling, but the fact remains the story telling has to do with ninjas and whatnot, something I have no interest in. I enjoy watching shows about cute girls doing cute things (with a very limited male cast) (most commonly in a high school setting) and Naruto does not meet that criteria."

The storytelling has to do with ninja's is face value at best. What my opponent is saying is the equivalent to saying that Slaughter House Five sucks because it has time traveling and aliens or that The Adventures of Huckle Berry Finn sucks because it takes place in the 1800s, has slaves and water rafting. Or heck: That V for Vendetta sucks because it is about a super hero. In other words, my opponent is simply judging a book by its cover if you will. All three of the works I've listed have things which are not universally praised or considered "highbrow" by critiques, but have been huge successes on what they were beyond face value.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Thanks man.

I've had other matters to deal with, hence the forfeit.
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