The Instigator
Pro (for)
1 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
10 Points

Resolved: There are no messianic prophecies that can be attributed to Jesus

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/6/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,232 times Debate No: 17432
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (19)
Votes (2)




Rules and Debating Procedure

Round 1
Con must present any prophecies you claim is a proof. Please label them for clarity of response (prophecy A, B, C, etc).

Round 2
I will respond to the prophecy and show how they were forged, do not exist, or are not true prophecies at all.
Con may respond in round 2 either with challenging my response, or presenting new prophecies (or both).

Round 3
I will respond to his challenges or new contradictions.
Con may only respond to my answers.

Round 4
I will respond to his challenges.
In the close of round 4 Con may not present new arguments or respond to my arguments. The purpose of this is to give an even round.

A note about Burden of Proof
This debate does not have burden of proof in the way normal debates do. My burden is to rebut the common "proof" texts and my opponent must present them.

Limitation of Space
Since it takes more space to answer a prophecy, I am limiting my opponent to 3 prophecies.
If you wish to add a prophecy, you will need to drop a prophecy


Prophecy A:

Joel Chapter 2:

The Day of the LORD

28 “And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
30 I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
32 And everyone who calls
on the name of the LORD will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the LORD has said,
even among the survivors
whom the LORD calls.

We have scientific evidence that any layperson can discover with the “Starry Night” software (only $250). (Watch entire video series it directly discuss events at the cross, it is short video series.)

This mans work has been reviewed by accredited scientific astronomy scholars and theologians alike.

Though the Numbers 24:17 prophecy is also discussed the focus will be the Joel Prophecy.

Here are the details that are only filled in Jesus and were used to prove that Jesus was the Messiah throughout the first century.

- This blood moon occurred during the Passover feast.

- The date of Jesus’ death at Passover in April (Nissan) 33 A.D. This is the only Passover that has a lunar eclipse with a blood moon as prophesied in Joel of the “Great Day of the Lord”.

- An earthquake that also tore the veil of the Temple accompanied this blood moon, which rose during a time of darkness for everyone to witness, this blood moon.

- Below I will quote Julias Africanus from a writing in 220 A.D. that shows this was a Roman documented historical occurrence.

"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness, and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun." Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18.1 in Roberts, Alexander and James Donaldson, ed. Ante-Nicene Christian Library: Translations of the Writings of the Fathers. Vol. 1 Edingburgh: T & T Clark, 1867.

We see three things confirmed here:

- Thallus’ historical recordings from 200 A.D. compile the historical Roman records and confirm the (signs on earth) earthquake and darkness.

- Due to Kepler’s mathematics and computer software we can confirm that indeed a blood moon rose that evening of Jesus’ death.

The events following:

- Directly recorded for us in Acts Chapter 2, Peter states the prophecy of Joel was witnessed by them all and fulfilled in Jesus. They were there for the Passover events and they saw the signs in the sky, the darkness and they all knew the prophecy.

- The supernatural fire over the disciples revealing the “pouring” out of God’s spirit was the next step in the prophecy.

- 3,000 Jews who were complicit in the killing of Jesus prior to the signs in the sky, converted on the spot.

- This also verifies an early date for this event in Acts, as no one needed to be explained “what blood moon?” No further details needed to be given to the readers or the audience that Peter was speaking to. Everyone saw the blood moon. Until the advent of Kepler’s work (who also searched for these astrological events) and computers we could not confirm this. Now we have.

It is clear that Jesus fulfilled this prophecy:

Is it mere coincidence that at Jesus’ death, whom is claimed to be the Messiah we have a blood moon, darkness over most of the Roman Empire and an earthquake?

Would God have allowed the prophecy of Joel to come fulfilled for a fraud? Could this have possibly been coincidence? Luck? Could all of this come together by mere chance?

Prophecy B:

Jesus himself directly attributes Psalm 22 to himself by quoting the first line “My God, My God why have you forsaken me.” while on the cross dieing.

- He is believed to have quoted the entirety of the psalm while on the cross for all of the spectators that were mocking him.

- All Jews knew the scripture and that it was messianic. They also saw that everything was fulfilled in Jesus. (Earliest Jewish Manuscript shows Messianic interpretation 8th century midrash, Pesikta Rabbati – suffering Messiah- Dr. Michael Brown)

The events described in Psalm 22 are mirrored within the events of the crucifixion.

(Matthew 27:45-46)

-We know the psalm is Messianic as that David never underwent the torture described.

-We know that it is attributed to Jesus due to the fulfillment of all of the details were specific to Jesus’ crucifixion.

-To deny this would be to contend that all of the early Jewish converts to Messianic worship, that were alive at the time and witnessed the events surrounding Jesus’ ministry were morons.


I do not feel the need to debate any more than these two.

The two above can be confirmed to be directly and only fulfilled by Jesus himself.

It would be highly unlikely that God would allow someone to fulfill these prophecies to such a degree that was a fraud.

Jesus is the Messiah.

Debate Round No. 1


I am sorry for the long wait. This is just a response to the Psalm 22 argument. Therefore, I will respond to Joel 2 in the next round. I will grant my opponent the final round to respond to JUST the Joel 2 repsponses just to be fair.

Let us take a look now at Psalm 22

- He is believed to have quoted the entirety of the psalm while on the cross for all of the spectators that were mocking him.

- All Jews knew the scripture and that it was messianic. They also saw that everything was fulfilled in Jesus. (Earliest Jewish

Under what basis do you make this claim? Where's the evidence? The fact: Psalm 22 is referring to David, NOT JESUS!

Psalm 22:16 says, "For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. (KJV)

Let's move on to Psalm 22:21 which says, "Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns."

Both pierced and lion is the word "ka'ari," the most accurate translation, and proper one, is "Like a lion" did you notice how they translated the SAME WORD two different ways?

Let's talk about the first verse for a moment. My God my God why hast thou forsaken me? Why would Jesus, who is suppose to be God feel forsaken by himself? If you go down a few verses God is not answering David's prayers. Don't you realise the implications by applying Psalm 22 to Jesus?

Psalm 22:7, "But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people."

Question: With the understanding that Jesus is G-d according to the Gospel of John and normative Christian theology then can you picture that Jesus, who is supposedly G-d in the flesh and the g-dman calling himself a worm? Is God a worm? By no means!

Question: Is the Messiah a worm from the Rod of Jesse and the Righteous Branch and a worm from David?
Isaiah 41:14, "Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, and the Holy One of Israel." (KJV)

So, the Jewish people are likened to a worm, and the comparison here makes it MUCH MORE LIKELY taht David was writing about the plight of the Jew. For some reason, the Christians find it hard to believe that the Psalmist would be writing about his own people.

Now let me ask much faith should we have in our Christian Bibles? Does it not stand to reason that Isaiah was right when he said: "Whom shall one teach knowledge? And whom shall one make to understand the message? Them that are weaned from the milk, them that are drawn from teh breasts? For it is precept by precept, precept by precept, line by line, line by line; here a little, there a little."


I have shown how Psalm 22 was purposly mistranslated and how it referrs to David's own life and NOT Jesus. Again, I will respond to Joel 2 later. Thank you and I await your response.



I want to thank my opponent for his reply and also his diligence in researching the prophecy fulfilled in Joel.

I will break down his rebuttal into Key points and correct them succinctly. I will do this in no specific order.

Jesus referring to himself as a “worm”:

The word used (thuloth) here is not just the word for worm. It is a specific worm that was used to produce scarlet die within the ancient world. It can be used to describe the color scarlet or used for the specific type of worm. So David is not calling himself just any worm, but a specific worm that you would crush to produce scarlet. In other words, the suffering Messiah we see from the Midrash.

We see it translated as scarlet in:

Exodus 25:4
blue, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen; goat hair

Here is the Hebrew link to read for yourself:

Here the psalmist, writing a psalm, which is a poem, is using a literary device. He is stating that he is as the crushed worm. This is important to the Christian. It is stating that indeed the world treated God’s Son who is precious the same as a worm you crush to bleed red, symbolic and very apt considering they crushed and bruised him scarlet or bloody. They did not do this with any respect or humility as to whom they were beating.

Psalm 22:6-8
(6) But I am a worm [I’m scarlet] and not a man, scorned by men and despised by the people.
(7) All who see me mock me, they hurl insults shaking their heads:
(8) “He trusts in the Lord; let the Lord rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.”

I am sorry this was not told you by your teachers.

That should answer both of your questions about why God would call himself a worm. He is stating that he was esteemed by men not even as a man but as a worm to be crushed to bleed red.

Concerning Psalm 22 being about David:

I already stated the 8th century midrash shows clearly a Jewish Messianic interpretation. Here is a direct quote from the midrash showing this.

0“During the seven-year period preceding the coming of the son of David, iron beams will be brought low and loaded upon his neck until the Messiah’s body is bent low. Then he will cry and weep, and his voice will rise to the very height of heaven, and he will say o God; Master of the universe, how much can my strength endure? How much can my spirit endure? How much my breath before it ceases? How much can my limbs suffer? Am I not flesh and blood?

It was because of the ordeal of the son of David that David wept, saying My strength is dried up like a potsherd (Ps. 22;16). During the ordeal of the son of David, the Holy One, blessed be He, will say to him; Ephraim, My true Messiah, long ago, ever since the six days of creation, thou didst take this ordeal upon thyself. At this moment, thy pain is like my pain.

It is taught, moreover, that in the month of Nisan the Patriarchs will arise and say to the Messiah; Ephraim, our true Messiah, even though we are thy forebears, thou art greater than we because thou didst suffer for the iniquities of our children, and terrible ordeals befell thee….

For the sake of Israel thou didst become a laughingstock and a derision among the nations of the earth; and thou didst sit in darkness, in thick darkness, and thine eyes saw no light, and thy skin cleaved to they bones, and thy body was as dry as a piece of wood; and thine eyes grew dim from fasting, and thy strength was dried up like a potsherd—all these afflictions on account of the iniquities of our children.

Ephraim is a darling son to Me…My heart yearneth for him, in mercy I will have mercy upon him, saith the Lord (Jer. 31:20). Why does the verse speak twice of mercy; In mercy I will have mercy upon him? One mercy refers to the time when he ill be shut up in prison, a time when the nations of the world will gnash their teeth at him every day, wink they eyes at one another in derision of him, nod their heads at him contempt, open wide their lips to guffaw, as is said All they that see me laugh me to scorn; they shoot out the lip, they shake the head (Ps. 22;8); My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my throat; and thou layest me in the dust of death ( Ps. 22;16). Moreover, they will roar over him like lions, as is said they open wide their mouth against me, as a ravening and roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is become like wax; it is melted in mine inmost parts (Ps. 22;14-15)

- Additionally I posted for you’re a link that showed psalm 22 did not happen to David but did happen to Jesus.

Concerning the word for Lion.

Some background on the how to determine the right “Text” to use for the psalm 22 translation;

- The word Ka’ari is from the Masoretic Texts 900 A.D.

- The Dead Sea Scrolls from pre-Christ we have the word used is ka’aru which means to bore or to pierce

- Additionally the oldest copy of the Old Testament we posses is the Septuagint. This greek translation from the Hebrew also translates the word to pierce.

This is a Jewish “change” well after the Advent of Christ. We must take the two pre-Christ texts and cite them as superior.

They both state his hands and feet were pierced. Somewhere along the lines the Masoretic texts came into an error, whether deliberate or mishap.

You can run these sources down directly from Dr. David Brown “Answering the Jewish objection”

Again we know that David’s hands and feet were not pierced.

Why would Jesus, who is suppose to be God feel forsaken by himself?

To answer; Jesus is not God the father. He is God the Son. He is a separate person who shares the same essence of Diety of God the father. Hence, the Trinity. They are three persons with one essence. They are all God but they are three persons.

Same concept, imagine you carve out a piece of a star. You now have two pieces of the exact same star stuff. They are the same essence, same stuff of stars but they are now two stars sharing the same essence. Diety cannot be divided as a star but the person of the Father, Son and Spirit can share it.

Jesus did not feel forsaken. He was forsaken. He became sin on the cross, which God forsook for all of us. Again we are discussing Hebraic poetry.

Psalm 22 Was recited by Jesus in its entirety:

It is believed due to the start of Psalm 22 is listed in Matthew with verse 31 cited in John. “It is finished.” It is logical and right to believe that he recited the first verse through 31 to indicate his suffering was completed. This is traditionally held by the Church.

In Summary:

To review each of the disputes you held to the prophecy still were largely irrelevant to the fulfillment. The resolution states that none can be attributed to Jesus. My opponent has provided only speculative reinterpretation, inaccurate retranslations and no evidence towards the fact that Jesus’ crucifixion indeed is mirrored by this psalm.

1) I have shown your simple worm interpretation was not accurate.

2) Most of the things that were discussed in the Psalm could not be attributed to David. My opponent merely claimed that it was David. He offered no proof that David fulfilled each of these events.

3) Here is another site showing how Jesus not David fulfilled this prophecy.

4) I have shown the earliest Midrash about psalm 22 pre Masoretic text, indeed view this psalm as Messianic.

5) I have shown that Jews have changed the text not Christians. Each of the earlier texts use the word for pierce.

Debate Round No. 2


I greatly apologize to my opponent. I made a huge mistake at taking on too many debates. I humbly resign and wish to continue some other time if it is okay with you?


Most certainly.
I am again grateful that you have reviewed the prophecies.

When you have more time let me know.
Debate Round No. 3


vote con!


Good Debate.
Debate Round No. 4
19 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by ApostateAbe 5 years ago
Gileandos, I have an opening for a contender:

"The authors of the four gospels sourced from myths, not directly from eyewitnesses (debate #2)"

I think it is suitable for you.
Posted by Gileandos 5 years ago
Gm I do not mind. I enjoy the humility it takes to recognize there may not be strong argument to reply with.
I also admire the fact that you recognize the only way to win is to use tactics that are not "Truth" seeking.

I applaud you for developing character so early on and using it to guide your walk and search for Truth.

I would like for you to thank your parents for me. Too few of you around in these end times.
Posted by GMDebater 5 years ago
True. I made a mistake. For now, I shall be in only one simultaneous debate.
Posted by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
It would be better for you to stop taking debates you can't finish.
Posted by GMDebater 5 years ago
Yeah...I understand. But what is better, that I humbly resign or forfeit on time and make bogus arguments?
Posted by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
Dude, you need to stop taking debates that you are going to quit as soon as you start to lose.
Posted by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
Your source is wrong, plain and simple.

Like a lion is spelled Caf-Aleph-Resh-Yod... Aleph-Resh-Yod is the root structure. So when you add Caf to the front you have C'Ari

However, Pierced is spelled Caf-Resh-Hey. That is the root structure of the word. Even without vowel points, the words are totally different.

Beyond that, the LXX writers who predate Christ and were Jewish rendered it as "Gouged" rather than "Like a lion."
Posted by GMDebater 5 years ago
thank you, RA. Please view my source for better info
Posted by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
The root structure for "Pierced" and "Lion" aren't even close...

Pierce = Caf-Resh-Hey
Lion = Aleph-Resh-Yod

Now, if you say "like a lion" you add Caf to the front and it comes out "Cari" in sound, but the root structure (which determines the meaning) isn't even similar (Caf-Aleph-Resh-Yod vs Caf-Resh-Hey.
Posted by GMDebater 5 years ago
ok, thanks! may be better for me
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by baggins 5 years ago
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Total points awarded:13 
Reasons for voting decision: Fascinating debate! It was unfortunate that Pro could not continue. 1 point to Pro as I do not think it should be 3:0 win for Con.
Vote Placed by ApostateAbe 5 years ago
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro told me to vote Con.