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Resolved: in the forum game mafia, it is justified to bus an unwilling mafia teammate.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/16/2012 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,985 times Debate No: 20430
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (12)
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First round is acceptance only. This debate is part of lannan's round-robin debate tournament.


1. Mafia: a forum game in which an uninformed majority is pitted against an informed minority. The majority must weed out and eliminate the minority from the game, while the minority must attempt to gain equal numbers as the minority.

2. justified (Merriam Webster Unabridged): to prove to be right or just

3. bus: A mafia tactic in which a member of the informed minority initiates and pushes for a lynch of a teammate in order to be confirmed as a member of the town.

Two quick observations/parameters

1. In this debate, philosophy can and should be used.

2. My opponent and I are most familiar with DDO Mafia, so we should argue this debate in the context of the DDO mafia community.


I accept my opponents debate, and await her arguments.
Debate Round No. 1



Observation: It would be best to restrict the resolution to
cases in which there is little to no suspicion on a member of the mafia. This
is because in the vast majority of cases in which someone is resisting being
bussed, he or she is not likely to be caught otherwise/has not already been
caught. Since the resolution should focus on “on balance” scenarios, it is more
fair for both sides to assume that the person would not be lynched anyways.

Affirmative Case

The crux of the affirmative case centers around the philosophy
of utilitarianism. Utilitarianism stipulates that the most moral or justified
outcome is the one that favors the greatest number of people. Thus, my burden
in this round is to demonstrate that bussing an unwilling mafia buddy is a poor
outcome for the greatest number of people.

First, bussing an unwilling teammate may lead one to be
deemed suspicious. The problem with bussing strategies is that they are so commonplace
in Mafia games that it is essentially expected that the Mafia will bus a
teammate in order to be confirmed at some point. In the Inheritance game, for
example, I was suspected of being mafia even after I vigkilled socialpinko, who
had been converted. In fact, some townies continued to accuse me of being mafia
even AFTER I had vigkilled three mafia players, which indicates that bussing
has become very common in the DDO community. In fact, not only is bussing
common, but it may also lead one to become suspicious. In the Illumnati game,
for example, F_16 pretended that Andro had bussed him by cleverly devising a
strategy by which he hammered on himself immediately after she voted to lynch
him. This caused Andro to be killed in the next round because everyone believed
that she had, in fact, bussed him to become confirmed.

Second, bussing an unwilling teammate may cause resentment
and grudges. Since we are a relatively small community, most of the players in
a given game are the same. Bussing an unwilling player can thus cause
resentment and spoil games for the busser later on. For example, if the bussed
player is ever mafia while the busser is town, the bussed player may advocate
having the busser lynched in NP1. Grudges do exist in DDO Mafia. Socialpinko,
for example, has killed F_16 consistently in three separate games: The No Day
Phase game (as the vig even though there was a confirmed mafia player out) as
mafia in Beginner 4.2 on Night Phase 1, and in the Tarantino game. Thus,
ultimately bussing an unwilling player may be a poor choice from the standpoint
of the community.

Finally, alternatives do exist. If the busser actually
believes that a bus is necessary, he could simply offer himself to be bussed by
his teammate. This could potentially get his teammate confirmed while
permitting the team to win overall while avoiding the second negative impact. This
means that bussing an unwilling teammate is not the most effective option for
winning mafia games, so this still fills the teleological requirements of

Thus, overall bussing is not the best solution possible, so
you should negate.



OberHerr forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2


Extend my arguments. Note that if my opponent decides to post arguments later, you should automatically give me conduct points.


I would first like to apologize to my opponent, and the viewers for the forfeit, and acknowledge that I will lose conduct for it.

Now onto my argument/rebuttal.


"First, bussing an unwilling teammate may lead one to be deemed suspicious."

This is a very subjective statement. My opponent later goes on to say that since it is common, that people will expect it, and that it immediately makes one suspicious. While this may be true, sometimes, I see only a few instances when it actually occurs, and in those there was other factors playing in for why people were already suspicious of that person(example: you had accidentally killed doctor in the Inheritance game.).

"Second, bussing an unwilling teammate may cause resentment and grudges"

I think that the only time this would really apply is when 1) The Mafia loses anyways, or because the bussing. or 2) There was already some feuding between the two people.

"Finally, alternatives do exist."

They sometimes do, but in this case, I think we can assume they do not, since bussing is something of a last resort option, used to get say a Mafia Godfather to be trusted.


My main argument for this is that, if it confirms a member IMPORTANT of the Mafia, then it should be embraced, whether or not the unwilling Mafia teammate(we can call him UMT), wants to or not. Also, a few other things should be taken into account.

1)Roles. What are the roles of the busser, and the bussed? If the busser is a Godfather(A somewhat ideal role for this)and bussed is just a Goon, the trade off is generally a good one.

2)Experience. If the busser is a experienced Mafia player, and decides that it is a good idea to get the confirmation on him, but the bussed is a noob, that just dosen't want to be taken out of the game, who would you pick?

3)Overall benefit. How late is it in the game? Would the bus help he Mafia win in the long run? These facts must be taken into account.

What I am trying to say, is that all I have to prove is that it is sometimes justified to bus a teammate. Therefore, if the criteria above is met correctly, then sometimes, it is.
Debate Round No. 3


My opponent posted no arguments . . .please extend all of mine and vote Con.


Ok guys, don't vote, unless for a tie, and go here for the real debate:
Debate Round No. 4
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by royalpaladin 6 years ago


Ober, can we repost this on another debate? I assumed that you did not post anything because time was ran out. I am really sorry . . .
Posted by royalpaladin 6 years ago
And I said that Spinko has a grudge against you, not the other way around.
Posted by royalpaladin 6 years ago
I meant the C-ACIT game, not the Tarantino game. I apologize.
Posted by F-16_Fighting_Falcon 6 years ago
LOL, I don't have a "grudge" against Spinko. And Spinko MODDED the QT game. How would he have "bussed" me?

Well, getting bussed by the mod is a new strategy I haven't heard of.
Posted by F-16_Fighting_Falcon 6 years ago
I just looked at this debate now and it is surprising how many times Royal mentioned me :)

We sort of referenced the QT game in my debate with Drafterman so I guess referencing other members is sometimes not entirely avoidable.
Posted by OberHerr 6 years ago
I'll try and post tommarrow.....or if I have time, today.
Posted by OberHerr 6 years ago
Aw, dangit! >:( Well, I guess I'll have to leave the debate.....
Posted by vmpire321 6 years ago
lol interesting.
Posted by OberHerr 6 years ago
Ah, I guess I missed that. :3
Posted by MasterKage 6 years ago
Royal already did.

"This debate is part of lannan's round-robin debate tournament."
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