The Instigator
royalpaladin
Con (against)
Winning
16 Points
The Contender
OberHerr
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points

Resolved: in the forum game mafia, it is justified to bus an unwilling mafia teammate

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
royalpaladin
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/24/2012 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,512 times Debate No: 20638
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (2)
Votes (4)

 

royalpaladin

Con

First round is acceptance only. This debate is part of lannan's round-robin debate tournament.

Definitions

1. Mafia: a forum game in which an uninformed majority is pitted against an informed minority. The majority must weed out and eliminate the minority from the game, while the minority must attempt to gain equal numbers as the minority.


2. justified (Merriam Webster Unabridged): to prove to be right or just


3. bus: A mafia tactic in which a member of the informed minority initiates and pushes for a lynch of a teammate in order to be confirmed as a member of the town.


Two quick observations/parameters


1. In this debate, philosophy can and should be used.


2. My opponent and I are most familiar with DDO Mafia, so we should argue this debate in the context of the DDO mafia community.
OberHerr

Pro

I'll let my good friend Barney take it from here.
Debate Round No. 1
royalpaladin

Con

Framework

Observation: It would be best to restrict the resolution to
cases in which there is little to no suspicion on a member of the mafia. This
is because in the vast majority of cases in which someone is resisting being
bussed, he or she is not likely to be caught otherwise/has not already been
caught. Since the resolution should focus on "on balance" scenarios, it is more
fair for both sides to assume that the person would not be lynched anyways.

Affirmative Case

The crux of the affirmative case centers around the philosophy
of utilitarianism. Utilitarianism stipulates that the most moral or justified
outcome is the one that favors the greatest number of people. Thus, my burden
in this round is to demonstrate that bussing an unwilling mafia buddy is a poor
outcome for the greatest number of people.

First, bussing an unwilling teammate may lead one to be
deemed suspicious. The problem with bussing strategies is that they are so commonplace
in Mafia games that it is essentially expected that the Mafia will bus a
teammate in order to be confirmed at some point. In the Inheritance game, for
example, I was suspected of being mafia even after I vigkilled socialpinko, who
had been converted. In fact, some townies continued to accuse me of being mafia
even AFTER I had vigkilled three mafia players, which indicates that bussing
has become very common in the DDO community. In fact, not only is bussing
common, but it may also lead one to become suspicious. In the Illumnati game,
for example, F_16 pretended that Andro had bussed him by cleverly devising a
strategy by which he hammered on himself immediately after she voted to lynch
him. This caused Andro to be killed in the next round because everyone believed
that she had, in fact, bussed him to become confirmed.

Second, bussing an unwilling teammate may cause resentment
and grudges. Since we are a relatively small community, most of the players in
a given game are the same. Bussing an unwilling player can thus cause
resentment and spoil games for the busser later on. For example, if the bussed
player is ever mafia while the busser is town, the bussed player may advocate
having the busser lynched in NP1. Grudges do exist in DDO Mafia. Socialpinko,
for example, has killed F_16 consistently in three separate games: The No Day
Phase game (as the vig even though there was a confirmed mafia player out) as
mafia in Beginner 4.2 on Night Phase 1, and in the Tarantino game. Thus,
ultimately bussing an unwilling player may be a poor choice from the standpoint
of the community.

Finally, alternatives do exist. If the busser actually
believes that a bus is necessary, he could simply offer himself to be bussed by
his teammate. This could potentially get his teammate confirmed while
permitting the team to win overall while avoiding the second negative impact. This
means that bussing an unwilling teammate is not the most effective option for
winning mafia games, so this still fills the teleological requirements of
utilitarianism.

Thus, overall bussing is not the best solution possible, so
you should negate.
OberHerr

Pro

Sadly, for various reasons, I'm not going to be able to finish this debate, so by default, my opponent wins.

Hopefully, me and my opponent can argue this at a later date, when I am less pressed for time.

So, vote for RP.
Debate Round No. 2
royalpaladin

Con

My opponent has conceded the debate. Please vote pro.
OberHerr

Pro

just speeding things up a little.....
Debate Round No. 3
royalpaladin

Con

Thank you, Oberr.

If you wish to debate this topic in the future, just send me a challenge :)

Vote Con.
OberHerr

Pro

The sky is red.....

And I shall RP I shall.....

Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 4
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by OberHerr 5 years ago
OberHerr
you guys had better vote Con. Although mercy points would be nice. :)
Posted by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
Couldnt pro say it benefits in the long run but pro might say the minority shrinks making it so if the majority lynches then their screwed.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
royalpaladinOberHerrTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by TUF 5 years ago
TUF
royalpaladinOberHerrTied
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Reasons for voting decision: forfeit by pro
Vote Placed by lovelife 5 years ago
lovelife
royalpaladinOberHerrTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro overall had no actual arguments, con made a strong case against it.
Vote Placed by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
royalpaladinOberHerrTied
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Total points awarded:31 
Reasons for voting decision: Well, one point of conduct to Pro for conceding to Con and not merely forfeiting and wasting Con's time. However, Con's arguments stand: the fact that bussing an unwilling mafia teammate could a) still lead to much suspicion b) begin animosities between members and so forth does seem--on the surface--convincing and Pro's forfeit (obviously) left them un-refuted.