The Instigator
McIvor
Con (against)
Winning
2 Points
The Contender
Max.Wallace
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

Resolved: that the Catholic Church should be considered part of the Christian Religion

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
McIvor
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/26/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 982 times Debate No: 63840
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (21)
Votes (2)

 

McIvor

Con

Resolved: that the Catholic Church should be considered part of the Christian religion.

This debate will be formatted in traditional LD format:
Round 1: Acceptance & Pro's Constructive
Round 2: Con's Constructive & Pro's First Rebuttal
Round 3 Con's Rebuttal & Pro's Second Rebuttal

Please only accept this debate if you are well informed in this area; I must say I would prefer a Catholic, but would not mind anyone else as long as they know what they are talking about.

Also please realize that all definitions and facts will be established in round; just one thing: don't bring up new arguments in the last rebuttal, as I will not have an opportunity to respond.

I now await an opponent.
Max.Wallace

Pro

I accept. However I do feel that this type of Miss Manners acceptance is nonsensical, as obviously I accept, or I wouldn't have accepted the debate unless I was an idiot.

The fact is that the Catholic faith is part of the Christian religion. I welcome your dispute.
Debate Round No. 1
McIvor

Con

In the previous round my opponent accepted this debate, but didn't really bring up any supporting arguments. Maybe he failed to realize that the first round was acceptance AND Pro's constructive (Unless his last two sentences were his argument...). Due to this I will allow Pro to use this second round as his constructive.

To show you all that the Catholic Church is not at all Christian, and thus ought not to be considered part of the Christian religion or a denomination or it, I want to bring up one main argument:

First Contention:
Catholics do not Believe in Jesus Christ.
Now this sounds absurd at first, but stick with me, and I'll explain what I mean. Catholics proclaim they believe in Jesus, but do they really? Belief in Jesus is what defines someone as a Christian. But what exactly does "belief in Jesus" mean? Does it simply mean that you believe Jesus existed? Even most secular historians believe that Jesus actually lived. So what does "belief in Jesus" mean?
Belief in Jesus can be summed up as believing Jesus is Lord (Romans 10:9), that Christ died to save you from your sins (Matthew 1:21), and was raised from the died (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). Implicit in this confession is that God is the only one worthy of worship (Luke 4:8), and Jesus is the only way to gain salvation (John 14:6).
Catholic Doctrine contradicts this in several ways.

Point 1:
Works Centered Salvation
Because the Catholic Church's doctrines teach salvation is not through faith alone, but also through certain works, it does not teach true faith in Jesus alone, but you must also have faith that your works will avail you in heaven.

Subpoint A:
Sacraments of Christian Initiation
Catholics believe that the Sacrament of Baptism is the "gateway to life in the Spirit"[1]. Here's what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says of it: "Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."" [2]. We can see that by this teaching one must be baptized to be saved. When talking about infant baptism, the Catechism states, "The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth." [3] This is very contrary to the teachings of the Bible that "by grace you have been saved through faith." Ephesians 2:8
The Sacrament of Confirmation is also held this way by the Catholics. The Catechism states: "the reception of the sacrament of Confirmation is necessary for the completion of baptismal grace."[4]
And again on the Sacrament of the Eucharist, it states: "The holy Eucharist completes Christian initiation."[5]
The Catholic apologist Brian Pizzalato put it this way, "Through the sacraments of baptism, confirmation and the Eucharist, we all become members of the body of Christ." [6] The Catechism then goes on to affirm this: "The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation."[7]
No where in Romans 10:9 does it say that these listed works must also be followed to gain salvation. What does the Bible say? Ephesians 2:8-9 reads, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." So, according to the Scripture, works have nothing to do with salvation.

Subpoint B:
The Doctrine of Purgatory
As many know, the Catholic Church has created "Purgatory", a place to purge you from sin before you enter heaven. Catholics believe all believers once dead, will go through Purgatory before they reach heaven. The amount of time spent there depends on how good the person was compared to how much they sinned. Those who were extremely good, they believe, will go straight to heaven. Again, this is salvation through works. What does the Bible say about our works? Isaiah 64:6, "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment." If our good works are like polluted garments, then all the good deeds in the world will avail nothing.

Point 2:
Mary and the Saints
Mary, in the Catholic Church is set up to be the "Mother of God" in more then just the sense of giving birth to Jesus and being his earthly mother, but rather as the heavenly mother of Christ, almost as if she was a goddess. Here's the Catechism on Mary, "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head." and "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church." and "Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death""[8] The Salve Maria Regina says, "Next to God, she deserves the highest praise. That is why the Church always calls the faithful to honor and praise her."[9] This can be called (although the Catholic Church doesn't want to admit it) Mary worship. You can especially see this through the practice of Catholics from around the world, where they bow down and worship images of Mary.
The saints are also set up, though not as high, but they are able to intercede for us, and accordingly be merciful toward us. Here's what the Catechism says about it: "the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers".[10] In practice, the saints are prayed to, for help in time of need. Often "icons" of saints are worshiped as well. This is completely and totally idolatrous.
These beliefs do not fit in with the Gospel.

Point 3:
Assurance of Faith
Catholics believe "the Bible does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation." [11] Even if you follow all the teachings of the Catholic Church, you still cannot have assurance of salvation. Therefore, Catholics cannot have complete faith that Jesus saved you from your sins. Let's see what the Bible has to say about this. John 3:16 makes it pretty clear: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." If you believe in Jesus, you will have eternal life--salvation. In fact, Paul was so sure of this that he wrote in Romans 8:38-39, "For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." I don't know how you can be any more sure than that!

Side Note: The Original Church
Unlike what some believe, the Catholic Church is not the original church. It is hard to put a date on when it began, but arguably it began when Emperor Constantine established himself as the head of the church around 313 AD. The first actual pope was Leo I (440-461 AD), long after Peter lived. The apostles obviously didn't believe in a "pope".

Though there are many more contentions I could make against Catholicism, due to restraint of time, I wish to share with you the verse that set Martin Luther free: "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, w have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1

So, in summery, the Catholic Church does not teach that you can be saved by faith alone in Christ alone, that God is the only one who can save you and who should be worshiped, or that you can actually have faith that Jesus' death on the cross has saved you. For these reasons I believe a vote for Con is justified.

[1]-[3] Catechism of the Catholic Church. "Part 2 - Section 2 - Chapter 1 - Article 1". The Vatican. http://www.vatican.va...
[4] Catechism of the Catholic Church. "Part 2 - Section 2 - Chapter 1 - Article 2". The Vatican. http://www.vatican.va...
[5] Catechism of the Catholic Church. "Part 2 - Section 2 - Chapter 1 - Article 3". The Vatican. http://www.vatican.va...
[6] Brian Pizzalato, (MA in Theology and Christian Ministry and MA in Philosophy from Franciscan University of Steubenville). "Wonders of the Sacraments". Catholic News Agency. http://www.catholicnewsagency.com...
[7] Catechism of the Catholic Church. "Part 2 - Section 1 - Chapter 1 - Article 2". The Vatican. http://www.vatican.va...
[8] Catechism of the Catholic Church. "Part 1 - Section 2 - Chapter 3 - Article 9 - Paragraph 6". The Vatican. http://www.vatican.va...
[9] Salve Maria Regina, (Official Bulletin of the Fatima Cell Program). "The Blessed Virgin Mary and the Precious Blood of Jesus". http://www.salvemariaregina.info...
[10] Catechism of the Catholic Church. "Part 1 - Section 2 - Chapter 3 - Article 9 - Paragraph 5". The Vatican. http://www.vatican.va...
[11] Catholic Answers. "Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth". Revised Second Edition. 1996. http://www.catholic.com...

*All scripture references were taken out of the English Standard Version.
Max.Wallace

Pro

BUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP! etc..........
Debate Round No. 2
McIvor

Con

My opponent has rudely forfeited. Because of all the reasons previously stated, vote Con
Max.Wallace

Pro

I did not forfeit, but thanks for pouncing on the opportunity to claim victory, You have revealed yourself.
Debate Round No. 3
21 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by dsjpk5 2 years ago
dsjpk5
Understood. School is more important than a silly website.
Posted by McIvor 2 years ago
McIvor
Hey dsjpk5, I may take you up on that offer, but it will not happen in the near future, as I am currently very busy with school.
Posted by littlejerry 2 years ago
littlejerry
Although i respect catholics and their denomination, i would be weary to say that its the original church. It really is not biblical at all. In fact many practices of the church go against the good principals that are taught.
Posted by Max.Wallace 2 years ago
Max.Wallace
Catholicsm is tough love, that is why the society of panty waists cannot take it.
Posted by Max.Wallace 2 years ago
Max.Wallace
Why do I always win against quitters? Usually anyways, some quitters have beat me. Oh the lashes they hurtses!
Posted by PETRO 2 years ago
PETRO
.... Catholicism was Christianity until the protestant reformation.. so really Catholicism is the Original Christian Church, that is a historic fact as well as biblical
Posted by dsjpk5 2 years ago
dsjpk5
McIvor, if you are not satisfied with this debate with max Wallace, feel free to send me a debate challenge with the same resolution.
Posted by Max.Wallace 2 years ago
Max.Wallace
Catholicism is simple the biggest cult of Christ, nothing more, nothing less.
Posted by THEBOMB 2 years ago
THEBOMB
Dang. I wanted to take this debate. It could actually be interesting (if framed correctly.)
Posted by Emilrose 2 years ago
Emilrose
As the central figure of Catholicism is "Christ"--this is somewhat unarguable.

Catholicism is simply a form and denomination of Christianity.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Tweka 2 years ago
Tweka
McIvorMax.WallaceTied
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Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 2 years ago
dsjpk5
McIvorMax.WallaceTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: No arguments made by con. Again McIver, if you want a do over with someone who will take it seriously, feel free to send me a debate challenge.