The Instigator
Ahijah
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
KeytarHero
Con (against)
Winning
21 Points

Resolved the Bible teaches: Salvation follows baptism and is for the remission of sins.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/13/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,423 times Debate No: 16493
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (76)
Votes (3)

 

Ahijah

Pro

Notice: The person seeking to refute the proposition must hold the Baptist view on baptism.
Definitions:
Bible, 66 books of the Old and New Testament.
Salvation, is the part that God does in order to save someone from their eternal destruction.
Baptism, the total immersion, in water of a repentant believer.
Remission of sins, to have ones past sins forgiven.
Like the above argument says, baptism is for the remission of sins. You cannot go to heaven without having your sins forgiven. Therefore you cannot go to heaven without being baptized.
Jesus, before He ascended into heaven left His apostles some very critical information about His plan to save people. We have this commission given here in the book of Matthew and again in Mark. We also have a history written in the book of Acts and throughout the New Testament. That tells us that this is exactly how the apostles carried out this commission given to them by Jesus.
Matt. 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.
Mark 16:15-16
And he said unto them, Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, and he that disbelieves shall be condemned.
Somehow men have left this teaching of Jesus. And have invented their own plan for mans salvation. So, if I can find a willing opponent. I would like to have the opportunity to discuss the purpose of baptism. If it is not for the forgiveness of sins. What is its purpose? I stand with what the Bible teaches and that is that baptism is necessary for ones salvation.
I will begin with a few Bible verses and see if the scriptures will back up what I am saying. Again I look back to what Jesus commanded His apostles. The book of Mark makes it perfectly clear that Jesus laid out the plan that the apostles followed and practiced in the book of Acts and the epistles to the New Testament church. Jesus told His apostles Mark 16:15-16, And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. And that is exactly what we read in Acts 2 when the New Testament church was established. After Peter peached his sermon. The people ask Peter what the they needed to do. He said in verse 38, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins. And afterwards we see in verse 41, They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls. Thats it! We become saved when we become Christians. God forgives our sins when we accept His Son, Jesus Christ. When we repent of our sins and we are buried whit Him in the waters of baptism. Then we are raised in the newness of life as a Christian. So if you have not repented of your sins, confessed Jesus, and been buried with Him in baptism. You are not walking in the newness of life where Jesus Christ is walking Romans 6. In Gal. 3:26-27 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. If we have not been baptized into Christ we are still in the world and doomed to eternal destruction. Why does the religious world make it so difficult? Why not obey what we read in the Bible? The simple truth of the matter is that we have some men seeking their own vain glory. They are seeking to please men, and not God. And many people have itching ears wanting some of these men to scratch them. Look at Romans once more tell me where I am missing the fact of baptism.
Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him in his death. We will certainly be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. --Romans 6:3-8
During this debate, each opponent must ask the other opponent three question. The questions must be listed at the end of the debate letter, as I have listed my first three questions. The questions must pertain to Bible scriptures relating to baptism. The questions must be copied and then answered at the end of each argument. Then list the question submitted to the other opponent for that round of arguments. A failure to submit or answer questions will forfeit the debate. And the debate will be awarded to the other debater.

I look forward to a good discussion with my opponent.

My first three questions:
1. Can you prove (with the Bible) the thief on the cross was not baptized?
2. If baptism does not save, what saves a man from his sins?
3. After the day of Pentecost, give the name of a person that was said to have had their sins remitted, forgiven, washed or such like.
KeytarHero

Con

Greetings. I would like to thank my opponent, Ahijah, for issuing this challenge. I hope to be a worthy contender for my side of the argument.

I contend that Baptism is a sacrament of the church in which every professing believer is required to go through or be disobedient to our Lord. However, it is not a requirement for salvation, as I will show. First, I will respond to his arguments, then I will argue my point.

Matt. 28:19-20
Notice there's a very specific order given here. Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Belief must precede baptism. The disciples here were told to make disciples first, then baptize them.

Mark 16:15-16
At first glance, this verse seems to indicate that baptism is, indeed, a prerequisite for salvation. However, if baptism is required for salvation and failure to do so will keep you out of Heaven, why, then, did Jesus not say, "he that disbelieves and is not baptized will be condemned"? Jesus inconspicuously skips over failure to baptize as condemnable. Remember that the most important way to properly interpret Scripture is to take it in context, and to compare it to itself. Here, failure to be baptized does not condemn you and in other places, there is no evidence to suggest that you must be baptized to be saved. Jesus in many other places told us to repent, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand, but baptism was not included in those proclamations.

Acts 2
I'm not sure which translation you're using, but I looked up several respected translations of the Bible (KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, and ESV), and they all say "repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins." The word for can have different meanings, but I believe, based on interpreting Scripture with itself, that the best translation here is "because of" the remission of your sins. I could say, I won the race for I came in first place. This is the same meaning the word "for" has in this passage. Also, notice that the believers believed first, then were baptized. This is important, for belief must always precede baptism. It is belief that saves you, not baptism (as I will show in a bit).

Gal. 3:26-27
It is interesting Ahijah uses these two verses, taken out of context. If you read the passage before (in the interest of space, I won't quote it -- please search it out to read it). If you read the passage before it, you will see that it's quite clear that it is our belief, our faith that saves us, not baptism. We are "baptized into Christ" because being baptized is an outward expression of sharing in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

"So if you have not repented of your sins, confessed Jesus, and been buried with Him in baptism."

I find it telling that Ahijah actually misquotes a verse here. Romans 10:9 says, "…that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Again, no baptism required. What is required for salvation is confession and belief. Confess your faith in the Lord, and believe in your heart God has raised Him from the dead.

Now that we have shown these verses really aren't saying that we must be baptized to be saved, allow me to make a couple of key points here.

Jesus did not need to be saved. Jesus, Himself, was baptized (and He had not yet died, been buried, or resurrected) (Matthew 3:13). He was our constant example of how to live. This was no different. He had no sins to wash away, and had not yet been to the cross. However, this was the key point at which He began His earthly ministry. Baptism is not required for salvation, but could possibly be seen as a prerequisite for work in the ministry.

Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly states that we are saved by God's grace, through our faith, and not by works. By requiring baptism to save us, you are adding works to salvation by grace. If I am baptized and go to Heaven, I can boast that I'm there because of what I did. However, my salvation has nothing to do with me and everything to do with God. If we're going to boast, let us boast in what God has done, not what we have done (Galatians 6:14).

Responding to Ahijah's questions:

1) I believe it can be logically inferred. After all, the thief on the cross wasn't hanging there because he claimed to be God. He was obviously a sinner and the Scriptures make no indication he was a believer until Jesus was crucified. If baptism was required for salvation apart from belief, it's an important enough detail that it would have been included.

2) We are saved by God's grace, through our faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). Baptism is not required for salvation. Confession and belief are (Romans 10:9).

3) I'm not entirely sure I understand this question. There were some who followed Paul and believed after he spoke at the Areopagus, namely Dionysius and Damaris. Belief is necessary to have your sins forgiven, so I would say they qualify.

My questions for you:

1) If baptism is necessary for salvation, why did Jesus not preach to be baptized when he came to John to be baptized, Himself?

2) Can you find anywhere in the Scriptures that someone was baptized before they believed?

3) If baptism is necessary for salvation, why did Paul tell the Corinthians that Christ sent him not to baptize, but to preach the gospel?

I look forward to your response.
Debate Round No. 1
Ahijah

Pro

I want to thank my opponent KetarHero for accepting the debate proposition. I am glad to have a chance to discuss this matter with him and let the readers use their ability to reason so that they can make a choice as to what the Bible teaches on this important subject.
Lets start, my opponent says before you can obey something you must hear. I don't disagree one must hear the truth and believe the same. That is what was said In (Matt. 28:19-20.) But that is not where Jesus stops. Jesus did not stop there. Jesus said, to make believing, disciples and then baptize them.
On to (Mark 16:15-16)
He starts here to mince words here. But it's simple to explain. Some would try and say. Yes, but what about those that believe and are not baptized…. It doesn't say they will be condemned… Oh yes it does! Baptism = faith. Those that do not believe will not be baptized to start with. The Bible does not spell out every single thing we have to do to be lost. Instead, it tells us what we have to do to be saved. If we don't obey it, we will be lost. Christ clearly warns in Mark that baptism is such an important matter that it will be criteria for judgment.
Lets look at it this way. Question 1: who shall be saved? Answer: Those that believe and are baptized. Question2: Who will be condemned? Answer: Those that do not believe.
Notice Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."
Now, notice what Jesus did NOT say. He did NOT say, "He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized."
But this is what most denominations teach. He that is saved will be baptized. That is Not what Jesus said! This should send a chill up the spine of anyone who is truly seeking to follow the teachings of Christ.
Moving along, my opponent said that his best interpretation of the Greek word eis means "because of" as it relates to Acts 2:38. (Greek eis) According to Thayer's lexigon, eis means "entrance into, or direction and limit: into, to, towards, for, among. There is, not a single instance of the Greek word eis in the KJV translated as "because of." Nor any version of the Bible that translates Acts 2:38, "Repent, and be baptized . . . because of the remission of sins." This is an unsupported assertion by my opponent. I would ask the readers and my opponent to find a reputable translation of the English Bible that translates eis to "because of" in the case of Acts 2:38. My opponent would have you believe that Acts 2:38 reads like this> Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ because of your sins, that have already been forgiven, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. This is a ridiculous assertion.
And as far as Gal. 3, I will be happy to post it here for the readers to see. Gal 3:25 But now faith that is come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ. It says, now that faith has come. We are no longer under a tutor (the OT law) For we are sons of God. Why? because we were baptized into Christ. See, that's simple if you don't let someone muddy the water. If you want to be God's son, have faith and be baptized.
Notice: I did not misquote Roms 10:9. My opponent has misrepresented me. If you will go back to my first argument I never said a word about Rom. 10:09. My opponent needs to set the record straight. He needs to stop here and make a correction in this statement he made (His words)> quote: "I find it telling that Ahijah actually misquotes a verse here. Romans 10:9 says, "…that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
I find it telling when my opponent forces me to use up space to set the record straight. Now there will be no more of this kind of foolishness. Romans 10:9 does say confess and be saved. I don't argue with that verse. Rom. 10:13 says, your saved by calling on the name of the Lord. But the Bible also says baptism saves.
My opponent says, quote "If I am baptized and go to Heaven, I can boast that I'm there because of what I did. However, my salvation has nothing to do with me and everything to do with God."
That's true if you are baptized for the remission of your sins and you go to heaven. You will not be able to boast of what you did. Because you did not do anything. The Bible says, Colossians 2:12 and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. It says, God did the work in baptism, not you! If you were sick and went to the doctor. And he preformed an operation on you and made you whole. Would you say you did the work? Baptism is not a work we do. It is a work that God performs on us during baptism.
Now I am going to knock this faith only thing in the head, once and for all! In Ephesians 2. The Bible says,
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: > (when were we raised up?) The Bible says, Romans 6:4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. (so we are raised up when we come out of the waters of baptism)
Eph. 2:7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: (what is this grace of God?) The Bible says, 2 Corinthians 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might become rich. (so the grace of God is His gift to the world, He gave His Son, Jesus Christ to the world. This includes saints and sinners alike)
Eph 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (They try to use this verse to exclude our obedience to faith) The Bible says, James 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. (This is the ONLY place in the Bible that has the phrase "FAITH ONLY." And when you see faith only. You see the Bible says, NOT by faith only!!!)
Eph. 2:9 not of works, that no man should glory. (Like I said, this is what they don't tell you. Baptism is not a work of man, as the Bible says,) Col 2:12 "having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead." (Baptism is the work God does. It has nothing to do with mans works. We can't forgive or own sins. But when we obey or faith and we are baptized. God does the work and washes away our sins.)
I need to move on. My opponents questions>
1) If baptism is necessary for salvation, why did Jesus not preach to be baptized when he came to John to be baptized, Himself? John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John) Can you find anywhere in the Scriptures that someone was baptized before they believed? (No, because belief is the first part of salvation. You have to believe anything before you can obey. But belief is not the last step.)
3) If baptism is necessary for salvation, why did Paul tell the Corinthians that Christ sent him not to baptize, but to preach the gospel? (this passage, actually indicates that two things are required before a person may call himself after another person. First, Paul would have to die for that person; and second, that person would have to be baptized in the name of Paul. This actually parallels perfectly with Biblical teaching that Christ has died for us, and we rightfully call ourselves Christians when we put Christ on in baptism.")
Questions
1)Can you provide a Bible that translates: eis>"because of"?
2)Will anyone in heaven be allowed to enter with their sins?
3)Can evil spirits confess and believe in Jesus?
Thanks
KeytarHero

Con

Again, I would like to thank my opponent for the chance to discuss this. Iron sharpens iron, as the Word says, and any chance to discuss doctrine can be beneficial for both parties. Also, I should note that I am copying and pasting my opponent's words and he wrote them, so I ask that I not be judged for spelling and grammar when it comes to quoting my opponent.

"I don't disagree one must hear the truth and believe the same. That is what was said In (Matt. 28:19-20.) But that is not where Jesus stops. Jesus did not stop there. Jesus said, to make believing, disciples and then baptize them."

My opponent is actually making my case here. I contended that this is the order of things to be done, as given by our Lord: to make disciples, and then baptize them. Baptism comes after making disciples (i.e., they have believed and confessed as per Romans 10:9).

"He starts here to mince words here [sic]. But it's simple to explain. Some would try and say. Yes, but what about those that believe and are not baptized…. It doesn't say they will be condemned… Oh yes it does! Baptism = faith. Those that do not believe will not be baptized to start with. The Bible does not spell out every single thing we have to do to be lost. Instead, it tells us what we have to do to be saved. If we don't obey it, we will be lost. Christ clearly warns in Mark that baptism is such an important matter that it will be criteria for judgment."

Actually, the Bible does spell out what will make us lost. The Bible clearly states certain sins that will keep us out of Heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Galatians 5:19-21, et al). There's also an unforgivable sin which will keep us out (Matthew 12:31). Not being baptized is never stated in Scripture that it will keep us out of Heaven. In fact, allow me to quote Romans 10:9: "…that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." There are three possibilities: either Paul, and writing under inspiration, God was lying (and obviously, this isn't true as God cannot lie), Paul was in error and this verse should be stricken from the Bible (again, he was writing under inspiration of God so he was not in error), or this verse is true. This verse clearly states if you believe in your heart and confess Jesus, you will be saved. If you are not baptized, while in disobedience, you are still saved according to this verse. And we must interpret Scripture with Scripture. Christ does not "clearly warn" that baptism is criteria for judgment, and you will not find one verse in all of Scripture that warns this.

"Lets look at it this way. Question 1: who shall be saved? Answer: Those that believe and are baptized. Question2: Who will be condemned? Answer: Those that do not believe."

Right. So not being baptized will not condemn you.

"Now, notice what Jesus did NOT say. He did NOT say, ‘He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized.'"

No, He did not, but other verses in Scripture teach this, and all Scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16). Jesus also did *not* teach that failure to be baptized is grounds for judgment or condemnation.

"Moving along, my opponent said that his best interpretation of the Greek word eis means "because of" as it relates to Acts 2:38. (Greek eis)"

I may not have been very clear here. Allow me to try again. The Greek word has many translations, one of those being "for." However, this is the fickle thing about language; one word can have many different meanings, especially in English. The word "for" has several meanings, in fact, one of those being "because of." An example would be: "She wept for pure relief." In this context, and because Scriptures are quite clear that baptism does not save, neither does failure to be baptized condemn, a better rendering of the word "for" would be "because of." We are baptized because our sins are washed away. It is not the method of washing our sins away. Repentance is how we are forgiven (1 John 1:9). Confessing our sins and asking forgiveness is how we are forgiven, not being baptized.

On Galatians 3:
Again, my opponent is misrepresenting the Scriptures here. The passage he quoted says nothing about baptism. We must take the Scriptures in context in order to properly interpret them. We cannot take them out of context to mean what we want them to. We "put on Christ" not by being baptized, but by being saved by repentance and confession (to become "like Christ"), and to keep ourselves grounded in the Word (the Scriptures) so that we cannot be led astray. Also, faith plays a major role in this passage, which only serves to back up what I was saying. It's by grace we are saved, *through faith,* not of works lest anyone should boast. In this passage, Paul is saying we are no more under the Law, but we are now justified by faith.

"Notice: I did not misquote Roms 10:9."

Perhaps not intentionally. But here is what you said originally: "So if you have not repented of your sins, confessed Jesus, and been buried with Him in baptism." Here is what Romans 10:9 says: ""…that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Do you not see how you are adding baptism to the list of what we must do to be saved, which the Bible doesn't even teach? Your words sounded like Romans 10:9 with an extra step added. A step that Paul, under the inspiration of God, did not teach.

On Colossians 2:12:
Again, my opponent continually takes verses out of context to fit his theology. Allow me to quote Colossians 2:11, the verse immediately preceding the verse he quoted: "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." (Colossians 2:11-12). This passage does not teach we are saved by baptism. We are saved when we forsake our sins (i.e. repent). After we are saved, we share in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection by being baptized (which is an outward expression of the event).

Also, the analogy of the doctor doesn't work. Yes, my doctor is the one who operated on me and saved me, but he wouldn't have been able to heal me if I didn't go and see him first. We must first call on Christ before being baptized, and it's calling on Christ that saves us, as the Word continually attests to.

"I am going to knock this faith only thing in the head, once and for all!"

If my opponent is so confident his arguments will land a TKO on my position, why did he, in fact, want five rounds in which to debate? I believe I have successfully shot down my opponent's objections, and have sufficiently proven my own.

On to the questions:

1) "Can you provide a Bible that translates: eis>"because of"? Actually, I expounded upon this in the body of my debate. I did not mean it should have been translated "because of," but "because of" would be a better and more accurate rendering of the word "for" in English.

2) Will anyone in heaven be allowed to enter with their sins? No. But this is irrelevant to the discussion. We both contend that sins must be forgiven, we just disagree on the method of forgiveness.

3) Can evil spirits confess and believe in Jesus? No. In fact, Hell was created for the Devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).

Now for my three questions:

1) If baptism is necessary for salvation, why does Paul leave it out in Romans 10:9?

2) If baptism is necessary for salvation, why is it not listed as a sin that will keep us out of Heaven, or as an
unpardonable sin?

3) Other denominations contend there are other works which we must add to our salvation (e.g. Communion). Do you also believe these are necessary for salvation?

I look forward to my opponent's response.
Debate Round No. 2
Ahijah

Pro

My opponent refuses to make a rebuttal to my arguments. I have posted this video to explain better my position. Maybe if he understands my position he will make his rebuttal argument. My rules for question and answers still stand. They are listed below. And I will return to the written portion of this debate after this brief video. I hope after the explanation in this video. My opponent will understand the proposition. Also if he wishes to have a video rebuttal he is welcome to it. I will give any martial he presents my full attention.

Before I answer my opponents questions. I will make a comment on his answers to my previous questions.

I ask the following question> 1) "Can you provide a Bible that translates: eis>"because of"?

He said: quote, "I did not mean it should have been translated "because of,"
Well if you did not mean it why did you say it? That is being dishonest!

2) I ask the following> Will anyone in heaven be allowed to enter with their sins?

He said: quote "No. But this is irrelevant to the discussion. We both contend that sins must be forgiven, we just disagree on the method of forgiveness."

So in fact, he saying devils and evil spirits will be in heaven. By is own admission it only takes belief for sins to be forgiven. And The apostle James says the devils also believe. This man's heaven is in reality a hell! Because the only way the Bible says our sins are remitted is through baptism.

That question lead me to this one. Because I knew he would answer number two the way he did. I said>3) Can evil spirits confess and believe in Jesus?

He said: quote 'No. In fact, Hell was created for the Devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).

Oh, my opponent said, devils could not confess and believe. Well he is DEAD wrong! The Bible says different.
In Mark 1:23-24 the Bible says, "a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus thou Nazarene?" 1) A confession of Jesus made by a unclean spirit.
And in, James 2:19 the demons also believe, and shudder. 2) Belief by a demon.
UNBELIEVABLE!!!

So here we have devils and demons confessing and believing. This man, my opponent with his doctrine has a heaven with devils and demons before the throne of God. How ridiculous, I have never heard such a blunder. And this is what is in our churches. Can you believe it!

Now for my three questions:

1) If baptism is necessary for salvation, why does Paul leave it out in Romans 10:9? Because he said it in 42 other places, including in the book of Romans

2) If baptism is necessary for salvation, why is it not listed as a sin that will keep us out of Heaven, or as an
unpardonable sin? Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins. It is not a sin to be put in some list in the Bible.

3) Other denominations contend there are other works which we must add to our salvation (e.g. Communion). Do you also believe these are necessary for salvation? That is not the proposition. And baptism is not a work done by man. God does the work. Col. 2:12

My questions:
#1) In the Book of Acts when was the apostle Paul saved?
Was it when he saw Jesus and believed?
Was it when he prayed?
Was it when he was healed?
Was it when he was baptized?

#2) Can you tell me Book, chapter and verse. Where the Bible teaches, to invite Jesus into your heart through prayer?
#3) If we do not obey the direct command to be baptized can we be saved?

Thanks
KeytarHero

Con

I have, in fact, proven my proposition and my opponent knows this. Hence, he has passed from rational debate into ridiculous discourse. I have given many rebuttals to my opponent's propositions which proves he takes the Scriptures out of context to prove his own theology, plus I have proven my own propositions which he has never rebutted. We still have two more rounds, but I have proven that baptism is not a requirement for salvation, although it is an ordinance and not doing so would be disobedient.

Also, I will not be responding to the video because my debate is with Ahijah, not the person in this video. If he cannot articulate his position, he should not be debating in the first place.

"Well if you did not mean it why did you say it? That is being dishonest!"

I explained it quite well, in detail, what I meant. You obviously didn't read my second round argument very well.

"So in fact, he saying devils and evil spirits will be in heaven."

That is not what I said, and you are being ridiculous. I actually got ahead of myself. Demons and evil spirits do believe in Christ, but they can't make a saving confession and they don't have a saving belief in Christ. They had their chance and they blew it when they rebelled against God. They can't be saved for the same reason it's too late for us after death. I never once said devils and evil spirits will be in Heaven, and now you're being disingenous and outright lying, which the Scriptures say is a sin that keeps us out of Heaven. I would urge you to react with honesty in the future.

"Because he said it in 42 other places, including in the book of Romans"

He did not say it in 42 other places. Baptism is not necessary for salvation. I have proven this already, but to reiterate: Romans 10:9 says if anyone confesses with their mouth the Lord Jesus and believes in their heart that Christ has risen from the dead, he will be saved. Either Paul was lying, flat-out wrong, or the only things necessary for salvation are confession and belief. This does not apply to devils and evil spirits because they're already in the afterlife. They were there with God and blew it by rebelling against Him. There is no hope for them. In fact, Hell was created just for them.

"Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins. It is not a sin to be put in some list in the Bible."

This is irrelevant. If being baptized is required for salvation, then surely it would say somewhere that not being baptized would condemn us. Yet it never does. If it keeps us out of Heaven, then it's a sin.

"That is not the proposition. And baptism is not a work done by man. God does the work. Col. 2:12"

I have already addressed Colossians 2:12. Baptism is a work done by man. You have to go to a pastor or priest to be baptized. You can boast in your baptism, as per Ephesians 2:8-9. However, Ephesians 2:8-9 says that we are saved by grace, through faith, not of works. Baptism is a work.

Here are his questions:

1) I can't say for sure when Paul was saved. I wasn't there. It was probably when Ananias laid hands on him, for he said this: "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." That's when he received the Holy Spirit and was saved.

2) "Can you tell me Book, chapter and verse. Where the Bible teaches, to invite Jesus into your heart through prayer?" Not off the top of my head. But that's irrelevant. The topic of this debate is if baptism is necessary for salvation. It is not. Confession and belief are (Romans 10:9).

3) "If we do not obey the direct command to be baptized can we be saved?" Again, yes. We are saved before we are baptized. However, if we are not baptized we are in disobedience. Also, one should be saved before beginning the ministry, as I indicated in my first argument.

Now for my questions:

1) Why would Paul receive the Holy Spirit before he was baptized if he wasn't saved?

2) Why would Paul lie or be in error in Romans 10:9 if baptism really was necessary for salvation? Why would God allow people to be misled like that?

3) Can you find me one verse which states not being baptized will condemn you or keep you out of Heaven? I don't mean one where Christ alleged teaches we must be baptized to be saved (I have already shown how He is not saying that). I mean one in which it is said that not be baptized will condemn you or keep you out of Heaven.

I look forward to my opponent's response.
Debate Round No. 3
Ahijah

Pro

Good day, dear readers I want to start by saying that the only argument my opponent has offered to defend his position is Romans 10:9. And I have said in my response in don't have a problem with Roman 10:9. This is one verse in the Bible. That he tries to make all inclusive salvation. Even though he denies it. His argument includes demons in heaven. He has a ridiculous argument. And has not answered any of my propositions in this debate.

He quotes me, quote "I contended that this is the order of things to be done, as given by our Lord: to make disciples, and then baptize them. Baptism comes after making disciples"

This very command he agrees with, found in (Mark 16:15-16) but then, he says has no bearing on us as Christians. He is saying the same thing as the proposition says. He is agreeing with me! He says salvation follows baptism! But what he is really trying to do is play word games. What he is really saying is after one becomes a disciple there is not need for baptism. He is inconsistent in his argument.

Again the argument is about when the Bible says sins are pardoned. And what the Bible says is this. After a person has faith (believes) he has to repent of sins, confess Jesus as the Son of God and be baptized for the remission of past sins. I presented this unmistakable truth with the Bible. My opponent says Romans 10:9 excludes baptism. But he is trying the hide the truth for the honest readers of this debate. The truth is when the Bible says to have faith to be saved he believes it. When the Bible says to repent, he believes that. But when the Bible says to be baptized. He says no. How can he lift one passage of scripture from the Bible and say that is it, there is nothing else. What he trying to do is destroy the Bible. Oh, but the God of heaven said His word will not be so weak that a man can change it. And in the day of judgment we will be judged by the things written in the Bible and that includes baptism. Faith is not the last act of obedience. Faith is the very first thing we have to do. We have to believe first. But if we stop at faith we are no better than the demons. The Bible teaches faith, confession, repentance and baptism. All must be obeyed. And the only one of these acts that is NOT a work by man is baptism. God perform the work in baptism by remitting our sins.
My opponent is under the same problem that many of the Bible readers have. That is the understanding of faith, works and grace. He does not know how to read the Bible and understand how a person is to be saved.

I will offer an argument that I copied from wiki. That explains his flawed exegesis of scripture.
(FAITH)
"By contrast, many recent studies of the Greek word pistis have concluded that its primary and most common meaning was faithfulness, meaning firm commitment in an interpersonal relationship.[10][11][12][13] As such, the word could be almost synomymous with "obedience" when the people in the relationship held different status levels (e.g. a slave being faithful to his master). Far from being equivalent to 'lack of human effort', the word seems to imply and require human effort. The interpretation of Paul's writings that we need to "faithfully" obey God's commands is quite different to one which sees him saying that we need to have "faith" that he will do everything for us. This is also argued to explain why James was adamant that "faith without works is dead" and that "a man is saved by works, and not by faith alone," while also saying that to merely believe places one on the same level as the demons (see James 2). The New Perspective argues that James was concerned with those who were trying to reduce faith to an intellectual subscription without any intent to follow God or Jesus, and that Paul always intended "faith" to mean a full submission to God."

GRACE
"Old perspective writers have generally translated the Greek word charis as "grace" and understood it to refer to the idea that there is a lack of human effort in salvation because God is the controlling factor. However those who study ancient Greek culture have pointed out that "favor" is a better translation, as the word refers normally to 'doing a favor'. In ancient societies there was the expectation that such favors be repaid, and this semi-formal system of favors acted like loans.[16] Therefore, it is argued that when Paul speaks of how God did us a 'favor' by sending Jesus, he is saying that God took the initiative, but is not implying a lack of human effort in salvation, and is in fact implying that Christians have an obligation to repay the favor God has done for them. Some argue that this view then undermines the initial 'favor' - of sending Jesus - by saying that, despite his incarnation, life and death, Christians still have, as before, to earn their way to heaven. However, others note this is the horns of a false dilemma (all grace versus all works). Many new perspective proponents that see "charis" as "favor" do not teach that Christians earn their way to heaven outside of the death of Christ. Forgiveness of sins through the blood of Christ is still necessary to salvation. But, that forgiveness demands effort on the part of the individual (cf. Paul in Phil. 3:12-16). [1]"

Now you can see how his is making faith exclude every other command in the Bible. Let me illustrate. When God delivered to Hebrews from Egypt bondage. They were told to have faith that they would be delivered. When they arrived at the Red Sea. God told Moses and the people to cross over the sea. Now my question to the readers, is this: If the people did not act on their faith and cross through the sea, would the Egyptian army have killed them? The answer is YES. And the same is true with our faith. If we refuse to act on our faith we refuse the grace of God.
James said, faith without works is dead. Jesus was asked, what is the greatest WORK a man can do? Jesus said faith was the greatest work done by man. My opponent says, faith is not a work. Who do you believe, Jesus or him?http://www.biblegateway.com... The Bible says God does the work in baptism. My opponent says, men do this work. Who are you going to believe, him or the Bible
http://www.biblegateway.com...
I have proved my argument and my opponent has not demonstrated any knowledge on the subject at hand. I only regret he accept the debate. Not having the ability to defend his position. He has offered 1 verse to defend what he says about faith, there are over 31,000 verses in the Bible. Sad, sad.

To my answers, for the questions he ask:
1) Why would Paul receive the Holy Spirit before he was baptized if he wasn't saved? Cornelius also received the Holy Spirit before his baptism :http://www.biblegateway.com...
But he was still commanded to be baptized and so was Paul. The Holy Spirit was given for a sign in the apostolic days to prove God's work. Today we have only water baptism. http://www.biblegateway.com...)
2)Why would Paul lie or be in error in Romans 10:9 if baptism really was necessary for salvation? Why would God allow people to be misled like that?
If that is the only verse in the Bible God gave us you would be right. But God gave us ALL of the Bible. And we are commanded to be baptized to wash away our sins.http://www.biblegateway.com...
3) Can you find me one verse which states not being baptized will condemn you or keep you out of Heaven?. You most certainly have NOT shown that. I can not believe you would go as far as calling Jesus a lair! I will post what Jesus said and let the readers decide>http://www.biblegateway.com...

My questions:
1 Do you believe ALL of the Bible?
2 Is baptism a commanded in the Bible?
3 Please put these acts in order of your most importance. Belief, baptism, grace, forgiveness
KeytarHero

Con

Greetings again, dear readers. My opponent, Ahijah, has resolved into outright lies against my position, as I will show you in this argument. I have successfully proven my proposition, and he has not successfully rebutted them. He has formed several strawman arguments against me.

"I want to start by saying that the only argument my opponent has offered to defend his position is Romans 10:9."
This is not true. I also used Ephesians 2:8-9, which clearly shows it's God's grace through our faith that saves us, *not of works* (e.g. baptism). Romans 10:9 also clearly shows the only things necessary for salvation are belief and confession. No baptism necessary, unless that verse is in error and should be stricken from our Bibles.

Ahijah has not offered compelling evidence that any of those verses mean anything other than what they actually say, which I have shown.

Also, I argued that Jesus did not need to be saved, and had not yet died, been buried, and resurrected. I have given at least three pieces of evidence (if not more), on top of refuting his arguments. I have argued quite strongly for my position, and he has not refuted it at all. If you take an honest look at our debate, I think you will see that my position is the stronger one. So please forgive me for extending my arguments, which have gone unchallenged.

"He is agreeing with me! He says salvation follows baptism!"

Hardly. One must now ask him or herself whether Ahijah has actually read my arguments! I said the order of the verse in Mark is that disciples are made first (i.e. they are saved), then they are baptized. I made no such assertion that salvation follows baptism, and my opponent continues his disingenuous arguing in a feeble attempt to prove his proposition.

"But when the Bible says to be baptized. He says no."

Again, Ahijah is misrepresenting my views, friends. I never said we are not to be baptized. All I said is that baptism is not required for salvation. I believe it's an ordinance and not being baptized is to be disobedient. I also said that it might possibly be seen as a prerequisite for the ministry. But for salvation? It is not required.

He even goes so far as to claim I believe there are devils and fallen angels in Heaven. I believe my readers to be far more honest than my opponent, and you will realize I have never made such a claim. In fact, I even said that Hell was created for Satan and his angels. They will not be in Heaven. They have no chance at salvation like we do because they are already in the spiritual realm.

Now he goes on to prove the weakness of his own argument by quoting from Wikipedia. Obviously he is not confident in his own argument. In the interest of space, I will respond to only a couple of points from the Wikipedia article.
Regarding the words of James, he does say that faith without works is dead (James 2:14-26). This just goes further to prove that we must take Scripture in context, and not pull it out to make it fit our theology. This passage is not stating that works saves us, because that would clearly contradict Ephesians 2:8-9, which says that we are not saved by works. But an honest exegesis of James shows that works comes along with saving faith. We are saved unto good works, not by good works. Our Lord also said we will know Christians by their fruit (Matthew 7:15-20). A true, genuine saving faith is one in which the disciple will do good works. A "faith" that doesn't do good is a dead faith; it can't save. After all, there's nothing magical in the baptism water that suddenly makes someone want to do good. It must be a conscious decision, and no one who isn't saved will want to follow the teachings of Christ. This is what James means by "faith without works is dead."

Also, James didn't say we are saved by our works because again, this would clearly contradict Ephesians 2:8-9. He says that we are *justified* by our works (big difference – James 2:22-26). James uses the examples of Abraham and Rahab the harlot. It was not their works that saved them, James attributes it to their faith. But they were justified
(proven) by their works.

"Jesus was asked, what is the greatest WORK a man can do? Jesus said faith was the greatest work done by man."
This is ironic. I checked out the Bible Gateway link Ahijah posted, and it actually says the exact opposite of what he claimed. It says, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." Jesus is not saying "faith is a work of man." He's saying the work of God is to believe on Him whom He has sent. Faith is a work of God, and in order to "work the works of God" belief must first be present.

"I have proved my argument and my opponent has not demonstrated any knowledge on the subject at hand. I only regret he accept the debate. Not having the ability to defend his position. He has offered 1 verse to defend what he says about faith, there are over 31,000 verses in the Bible. Sad, sad."

Now here my opponent abandons the strawman argument for a clear ad hominem attack. Do you see, readers? Not only are his arguments unsound and taken out of context, he resorts to lying about my position (I made more arguments than simply one verse), clearly misrepresenting my views, and to attacking me, claiming I have no knowledge on the subject when I've just taken four rounds to discuss my position. I do not have to tell you how to vote, friends. I think you will see whose position is stronger.

I will now answer his questions.

1) Do you believe ALL of the Bible? Yes, I do believe all of the Bible. It's all given by inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16). However, I take Scripture as a whole and do not pull verses out of context to "prove" my theology.

2) Is baptism a commanded [sic] in the Bible? Yes, baptism is commanded. It is not, however, required for salvation. Many things are commanded in the Scriptures, but failing to follow them will not keep us out of Heaven.

3) This is not actually a question. I believe this would mean he forfeits the debate. However, I believe I have argued my views strongly enough that I don't have to rely on calling him on his own rules for the debate. I will, however, respond: "Please put these acts in order of your most importance. Belief, baptism, grace, forgiveness" I'm not sure I can adequately order these. Grace, forgiveness, and belief kind of go hand-in-hand. When we belief, we repent and seek forgiveness for our sins, which God offers by His grace. All of these are necessary for our salvation and to be reconciled with God. Baptism would come next.

Here are my questions:

1) Let's say, for the sake of argument, I only had one verse to back up my position. Would not one verse be enough? Or does God flip-flop in His teachings that even though it says something in one place, He could contradict it in 100 places to make it true? Is God a liar?

2) What is it about baptism that suddenly forgives us from our sins, since God doesn't forgive our sins when we ask (which, by the way, clearly contradicts 1 John 1:9).

3) Why was Jesus baptized by John the Baptist, when even John the Baptist though he should be baptized by Jesus, if baptism is supposed to wash away our sins?

I thank you for reading, and look forward to our last round.
Debate Round No. 4
Ahijah

Pro

My opponent has not answered my arguments for the need for baptism. He has only said we must believe and confess. I have showed that even devils do this much. His gospel plan has even the wicked people going to heaven. Before we can respond to God we must realize our lost spiritual condition:
Isaiah 59:2 - your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, so that he will not hear.
1 John 3:4 - Every one that doeth sin doeth also lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
Since we are sinners we must realize that we cannot earn our salvation:
Ephesians 2:7-8 - that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Below, in detail shows, with book, chapter and verse the Bibles plan of salvation.

The Gospel Plan of Salvation>

In order to be saved we must obey God's offer of grace and mercy. We must believe in God and in Christ Jesus through hearing his gospel:
Matthew 28:19-20 - Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.
Romans 10:17 - So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Hebrews 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
James 2:20-24 - But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect; and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God. Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

We must repent:
Luke 13:3 - I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all in like manner perish.
Acts 17:30 - The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked; but now he commandeth men that they should all everywhere repent:

We must confess the name of Christ before men:
Matthew 10:32 - Every one therefore who shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven.
Romans 10:9 - because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:

Be baptized into Christ for the remission of our sins:
Mark 16:15-16 - And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.
Acts 2:37-38 - Brethren, what shall we do? And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Galatians 3:26-27 - For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.
1 Peter 3:20-21 - that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

Once inside Christ, live a life of faithful, loving, obedience to Christ:
Revelation 2:10 - Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee the crown of life.

My opponent's failure in this debate is to reconzie baptism as a part of God's plan to redeem mankind. The Bible was written so that a person could read and understand how God has given His grace, His Son, Jesus Christ. But it takes a honest heart to search God's word for His will for man.

I will now answer my opponents questions. First, I would like to say, when I ask someone to put a series of words in order. That constitutes as a question by me. I did not try to be misunderstood, it was truly a question.

His questions:

1) Let's say, for the sake of argument, I only had one verse to back up my position. Would not one verse be enough? Or does God flip-flop in His teachings that even though it says something in one place, He could contradict it in 100 places to make it true? Is God a liar?

NO!!! one verse does not constitute God's Bible plan for man's salvation. The Bible is the word of God in Romans 10:9 and it is still God's word in Acts 2:38. It is fallible mans who is the liar.

2) What is it about baptism that suddenly forgives us from our sins, since God doesn't forgive our sins when we ask (which, by the way, clearly contradicts 1 John 1:9).

When a individual is baptized, God remits his sins. It places that person in Christ where all spiritual blessing are. Children of God are the only people that have the right to ask for forgiveness i.e. 1 John 1:9. Unbaptized persons are told to follow the same plan the Christian followed to become Christians. Acts 2:38. Then they can have Jesus as their High Priest to offer prayers to God through Jesus.

3) Why was Jesus baptized by John the Baptist, when even John the Baptist though he should be baptized by Jesus, if baptism is supposed to wash away our sins?

Your right Jesus had no sins. But we do have sins! Jesus said, His baptism was to fulfill all righteousness. And as Jesus fulfilled all righteousness we are required to also. We may not understand all the reasons why Christ submitted to baptism. We have a limited view of that wonderful event. We should, however, note this: If the sinless Son of God did not refuse this divine ordinance, how much less should men today neglect the command, which is declared to be "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38)

My questions:

Why is it so important to the anti-baptism folks to preach against sinners who want follow the command to be baptized?

Would your faith deny to baptize a repentant sinner, who has believed and confessed Jesus Christ?

Would a proper definition of a Christian be (Someone who has obeyed ALL of Christ's teachings)?

I really do want to think all of the readers of this debate and my opponent. I know feelings were hurt here at times. But I hope that only good will come from this debate. The Bible says: 1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Not to say who is right or wrong in this debate. That is why we have these discussions to motivate the reader to go to God's word with prayer and learn from God what the truth is on this and any matter that pertains to life here and here after. One's eternal destination only depends on the response of that individual. What I say or what my opponents says to the contrary notwithstanding. We can only give an account for our own salvation. God bless each and everyone. And God bless my opponent.
KeytarHero

Con

Again, I want to thank my opponent and the readers for honestly considering the words of this debate.

You must realize by now that my opponent's arguments have been nothing more than to take the words of the Scriptures out of context in order to prove his points, and he has constantly resorted to strawman arguments and ad hominem attacks throughout this debate. These are not the actions of one who is strong in his arguments.

Also, I will offer no new arguments since my opponent will not have a chance to respond to them. But I hope by now you realize that my opponent has not refuted any of my arguments, he has only tried to side-step them in an attempt to "prove" his own proposition. I do not need to tell you how to vote; you can make up your own minds.

"My opponent's failure in this debate is to reconzie [sic] baptism as a part of God's plan to redeem mankind."

In other words, my opponent asserts that the conditions of the debate are not to make compelling arguments against him, but to change my mind and believe as he does after this debate. This is simply silly.

"First, I would like to say, when I ask someone to put a series of words in order. That constitutes as a question by me."

That is not a question, and you did not specify before the debate, but I will let it slide. As I stated, I believe I have enough to clinch the debate without having to call you on your own rules.

"NO!!! one verse does not constitute God's Bible plan for man's salvation."

But any verses that speak against would contradict God's Word and make Him a liar.

"Children of God are the only people that have the right to ask for forgiveness i.e. 1 John 1:9."

Given the context, there's no reason it doesn't apply to unbelievers who are confessing their sins for the first time. After all, the things required for salvation are belief and confession (Romans 10:9). If you believe and confess Jesus, you are saved, and God will hear your prayers of forgiveness.

He has asked three final questions, so I will address them here.

1) "Why is it so important to the anti-baptism folks to preach against sinners who want follow the command to be baptized?" Who here is anti-baptism? Is this another ad hominem attack? There's nothing wrong with being baptized; in fact, our Lord commands it and He led by example. However, it has no place in the work of salvation, as I have shown. It's for disciples.

2) "Would your faith deny to baptize a repentant sinner, who has believed and confessed Jesus Christ?" No, of course not. Baptism is for professor believers, Christ's disciples.

3) "Would a proper definition of a Christian be (Someone who has obeyed ALL of Christ's teachings)?" No, of course not. My definition of a Christian is someone who has confessed Christ and believes in His heart Christ has risen from the dead (Romans 10:9), and who has a faith that does good works (James 2), that we may know them by their fruit (Matthew 7).

I will not ask any questions as my opponent will not have a chance to respond.

Again, I would like to thank my opponent for the discussion, and any readers who have taken time out of their day to read the debate and vote on the winner. I just ask that you vote based on who had the stronger arguments, not based on whom you agree with.
Debate Round No. 5
76 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by JoshBrahm 5 years ago
JoshBrahm
I forgot to write this in my vote: Posting a 28-minute video to add to your argument is CHEATING. Between that and everything else, Pro had the worst conduct I have ever seen in a debate on this website.
Posted by ReformedArsenal 6 years ago
ReformedArsenal
kjw...

Orthodox Christianity has always taught that God's saved will live on the renewed Earth of Revelation 20-22
Posted by kjw47 6 years ago
kjw47
Theres another problem with the trinity religion- they all teach heaven or hell and Gods word teaches this-- The righteous will possess the earth and reside forever upon it--Jesus said-- The meek will inherit the earth--Why do the trinity religions throw these truthful teachings out?
As we find in the book of revelation the ressurection happens after Harmageddon- also 2 timothy 2:18
Posted by KeytarHero 6 years ago
KeytarHero
Actually, KJW, judgment follows death (Hebrews 9:27). Once we die, there is no more opportunity to "know the truth." Either you go to Heaven or Hell based on whether you believed the truth in this life.
Posted by kjw47 6 years ago
kjw47
The wages of sin is death- thus at death the sin is paid in full- the thiefs will be ressurected into Gods kingdom and be given the opportunity to learn and apply truth- then Gods word teaches satan will be loosed from the abyss for a little while and some will follow- they all get thrown into the lake of fire- the second death. That is how he gets into paradise in Gods kingdom. Not because he was baptized- Baptism would have meant nothing if he was a practicer of sin.
Posted by ReformedArsenal 6 years ago
ReformedArsenal
Really? The Bible indicates he knew a lot about the message of Jesus and where Jesus came from...

"But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." - Luke's contribution

"Those who were crucified with him also reviled him." - Mark's contribution

"And the robbers who were crucified with him also reviled him in the same way." - Matthew's contribution

That is EVERY word the Bible has to say about the second thief on the cross... and you think that gives us enough to know that he was baptized under John, knew of Jesus and his message, lived an obedient life under the law of Jesus, and was converted?
Posted by KeytarHero 6 years ago
KeytarHero
I don't really think we should be putting words in God's mouth, or adding to the Scriptures. There is no Biblical reason to assume he was baptized, or that he was a good man prior to being confronted with our Lord, hanging on the cross.
Posted by Ahijah 6 years ago
Ahijah
A lot of men make mistakes in life, murder, stealing lying.... then when it comes to the end they seek forgiveness. So more than likely the thief was a good hearted man, at Jesus thought so. He had more than likely knew of John's baptism and about Jesus. The Bible indicates he knew a lot about the message of Jesus and where Jesus came from and where He was going. So, I said the odds are he was baptized into John's baptism. And until Jesus died that was the baptism in effect.
Posted by ReformedArsenal 6 years ago
ReformedArsenal
It's an imposition on the text to assume that he was baptized into John's baptism, or otherwise. Besides, the Bible makes it clear that baptism into John's baptism is not the same as Christian baptism by the fact that in Acts they come across some who were baptized into John's baptism, and they are baptized again... it is only after they are baptized in Christian baptism that the Holy Spirit descends upon them.

Furthermore, I can hardly believe that the Thief was obedient to Christ's commands, if he was being crucified, likely for murder.
Posted by Ahijah 6 years ago
Ahijah
Reform That was my dear friend Dan whacking you in the head with the Bible. As far as the thief on the cross is concerned. He sure did know a lot about Jesus and His kingdom. So I think there is a better chance than not he was baptized into John's baptism. He knew more about the plan of salvation than you seem to know.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by JoshBrahm 5 years ago
JoshBrahm
AhijahKeytarHeroTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: I've never read a debate before where I could accurately give one side of the debate every single point during the voting period. This one takes the cake. While Con was somewhat argumentative by the halfway point of the debate, Pro spent most of his time acting like a jerk. He constantly used strawman arguments against Con, he resorted to ad hominem attacks, and his hermeneutic skills are poor to say the least.
Vote Placed by MontyKarl91 6 years ago
MontyKarl91
AhijahKeytarHeroTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Lack of organization and poor arguments loses this one for Ahijah. He was incapable of mounting an intelligent argument.
Vote Placed by ReformedArsenal 6 years ago
ReformedArsenal
AhijahKeytarHeroTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Ahijah is right that KeytarHero's primary argument rests on Rom10:9... but that's fine because it's significant. He does not respond to why Paul lists these two things as requirements for salvation... and not baptism. Furthermore, Ahijah would have lost conduct and sources for posting a 28 minute video instead of making his argument himself. Ridiculous. But then he goes on t misrepresent KeytarHero's argument with a straw an about demons in heaven. Finally the sloppy formatting lost him so