The Instigator
Lennox
Pro (for)
Losing
12 Points
The Contender
Lysis17
Con (against)
Winning
21 Points

Resolved:the Ivy League has lost its prestige and allure as many non-Ivy schools have exceeded them.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/7/2007 Category: Education
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,148 times Debate No: 165
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
Votes (11)

 

Lennox

Pro

Harvard, Yale, Princeton, these names no longer mean what they used to. Today, cost-benefit effectiveness and the ability to produce globally effective persons of society are what makes a University prestigious, not overpricing you to stay in a building built hundreds of years ago and be taught by geezers five times your age. Other non-Ivy schools such as Stanford, Georgetown, and Northwestern have proven themselves to be able to stand up to the Ivy hegemonts. Some colleges such as Loyola, COlumbia, and American do this at a lower cost. Older isn't always better and while the Ivy schools are busy organizing alumni tea parties, newer more contemporary schools are on the fore front with developing ideas and plans to address problems such as global warming and the alarming rate of the depletion of the minority races.
Lysis17

Con

First of all I must ask what you consider prestigious to mean? Most people consider prestigious to signify "the best". Yes, many of our state universities provide not only adequate, but top notch quality education. But I would disagree with the statement that being "cost effective" would classify one as prestigious. In fact the word "prestige" is often associated with wealth and connections. Yes, perhaps these Ivy League schools seemed overpriced to your average student but to many it seems worth the extra cost for the coveted "label". Just as some people will pay more for that "brand name" clothing item, the same goes for certain classes and their education. Yes, that off brand jacket is sufficient enough to keep you warm but the majority of consumers will pay a larger price for one similar just because it carries a well known name.

As far as your comment about the old buildings I have one word to say about that "History". Not much different to one of the prime rules of selling and buying real estate "Location, Location, Location." Build the same house, one in the middle of Kansas, the other on a beach in Malibu….which will cost more? Also there are many out there who are willing to pay more for the experience of studying in an institution such as Harvard that has had a superb reputation for over three hundred years. Then there is that added benefit of bragging rights. Though some desire the experience just to impress others by telling them that they lived and studied in the same place as "President so and so", others (like me) are fascinated with the past and love the nostalgic feeling that only older universities can incite.

As far as being taught by old geezers. From my college experience I found the "old geezers" to be the best teachers of all. They captivated me with not only their knowledge but experience. Those are the classes I learned the most in, and remember most fondly. I can't say much for the many classes in which I was subjected to TA's (student teachers or teacher assistants) which were barely out of college themselves and knew minimal about what they taught.

I will agree with the fact that one can receive just as great, maybe even a better education at a more cost efficient university. However, your argument contends that Ivy League schools have lost their "prestige and allure". In 2006 The New York Times wrote that "The most prestigious college in the world, of course, is Harvard, and the gap between it and every other university is often underestimated. Colleges that emphasize teaching may well offer a better education that Harvard. But it still exerts a pull on teenagers that is unmatched."

If they have lost their allure then why was this a record breaking year for applicants being rejected from these schools? An article in the April 4, 2007 edition of the New York Times written by Sam Dillon, "A Great Year for Ivy League Schools, but Not So Good for Applicants to Them." proves that these schools will not lose their bragging rights anytime soon.

"Ten years ago a student with perfect SAT's or a valedictorian could have easily gotten accepted at the college of his/her choice, provided of course that the essays and the recommendations were respectable. This has all changed. According to Dillon, "Harvard turned down 1,100 student applicants with perfect 800 scores on the SAT math exam. Yale rejected several applicants with perfect 2400 scores on the three-part SAT, and Princeton turned away thousands of high school applicants with 4.0 grade point averages. Needless to say, high school valedictorians were a dime a dozen. It was the most selective spring in modern memory at America's elite schools, according to college admissions officers. More applications poured into top schools this admissions cycle than in any previous year on record,"
Debate Round No. 1
Lennox

Pro

There are many other schools who offer the same things you mentioned, history, experienced professors, and a prominent label. These schools include Stanford, Columbia, there really is a long list. However, these schools do not come with the same overwhelming cost as the Ivy League schools. Despite, what Shakespeare said, there really isn't that much in a name and if a rose were called betty it would still smell sweet. As a person who went to Princeton for my undergrad and then to Georgetown for my law degree I can say that going to Princeton really wasn't worth the money. As for you arguement about location for any major that you are pursuing at the Ivy League there is a non Ivy school that can provide you with that same major in a better way simply becasue of thier location. A polisci degree would be better recieved at American or George Washington who are right in the nation's capitol. A medical degree would be better earned at John Hopkins were they have dozens of research centers. There are simply things that an Ivy League cannot provide but you sure are payign for anyway.
Lysis17

Con

Like I said before, you can obtain just as good, if not better, education at some of these other "cost-effective" schools. However, your argument was that the Ivy Leagues were losing their prestige and allure(ment).

As far as location, I was simply using that as an example that just as location is a major factor in successful real estate, so is history and reputation when it comes to education.

Schools like Harvard provide "prestige" and often provide "connections" which make it easier to get a high paying job. It's not necessarily fair, but many employers associate Harvard with higher intelligence and prominence and will be more likely to hire the person with that school on their resume.

I personally don't think one has to go to an Ivy League to obtain the best education or to become successful. For that matter there are many who have become millionaires without even finishing college. Both the founders of Microsoft and Facebook are Harvard dropouts....and there are several on the Forbes top 500 richest people who dropped out of other colleges. However, your argument is contending that these schools have lost their appeal...once again I ask you to look at the articles stating otherwise.

What things are Ivy League schools not providing for but students pay for anyway? In your opening argument you mention that they are overpriced because of "old buildings" and "old geezers". Now you are saying that they are paying for something they are not getting? I'm sure that those attending Ivy Leagues are well aware of what they are paying for and if not "Daddy" sure is.
Debate Round No. 2
Lennox

Pro

I am in agreement with in many ways. The Ivy League is still highly desirable but I am still higly opposed. Did you know that the Ivy League was orginally founded as a sports league? Now it is supposedly the icon of education. However, the fact that other schools are more inviting and "accepting" than many Ivy League schools increases their allurement and decreases the Ivy League's allurement. Exclusivity is often coupled with ignorance.

What you are paying for that you are not getting is the best. What you are really getting is all talk and some action. The Ivy League has much to credit to their name but it simply isn't worth the cost. Education is the most overpriced industry in America and teh Ivy League isn't working to make it available to more people than before.
Lysis17

Con

I'm glad that you've conceded that the Ivy Leagues have not lost their appeal...you stated that "the Ivy League is still highly desirable". As far as the Ivy Leagues schools not being worth the cost, I guess that would be a matter of opinion to the students that go there. If they don't think it is worth the money then they do have the choice to go elsewhere, yet they still choose to go there.

Your statement may have some truth to it as far as exclusivity is coupled with ignorance. Yes, some of the reasons these students choose these schools are for the prestige and exclusiveness, and that may seem shallow and stupid to others...but they apparently are willing to pay for this.

Your argument in the beginning however was geared toward the loss of appeal and prestige and I just proved to you that they had in fact not lost either. However, your point about high cost of education is important and perhaps you should start another debate and word your argument a little differently.

Thanks for presenting this topic to debate.
Happy Holidays!
Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by Drewseph 9 years ago
Drewseph
Correction: Wesleyan (or Wash U or Chicago or Tufts) definitely have not equalled or surpassed Harvard, Princeton and Yale IN TERMS OF PRESTIGE. Quality wise, all ofthese and many others do equal or surpass the ivies.
Posted by Drewseph 9 years ago
Drewseph
Hahahahahaha

Harvard, Yale, Princeton. These names mean EXACTLY what they used to. Yes, some schools are equal in quality. One of those is my alma mater, Wesleyan University. However, Wesleyan (or Wash U or Chicago or Tufts) definitely have not equalled or surpassed Harvard, Princeton and Yale.

Many students are choosing not to pursue the ivy league. I did, even though I am a legacy at Brown, because Wesleyan fit my interests better. But I was well aware of the fact that I was losing prestige and name recognition by doing so.
Posted by la_bella_vita 9 years ago
la_bella_vita
i'm not sure that it's that students are less interested in applying and being accepted to Ivy Leagues, but more that in the workplace an Ivy League education on the transcript simply doesn't mean as much.

it used to be that simply having attended and graduating from one of the top Ivy Leagues would have been enough to get you any job you wanted. nowadays, employers are much more savvy and want to see more of what the potential employee has to offer rather than just looking at a name on their resume. in this way, i definitely agree that Ivy Leagues have lost their appeal. people are realizing that an Ivy League education doesn't necessarily make someone the ideal employee, or even mean that they have the best skills for whatever job they are applying for.
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
Oh please

Im just comparing TUITION

R&B and other expenses can vary WIDELY

I paid 1200$ a semester tuition and 1280$ a semester for room and board in the COOPS at UC Berkeley in 1987-1992

thats only about 10K per year, altough it was 15 years ago

Compare TUITION ONLY, my friend, and you will see Im right
Posted by Chuckles 9 years ago
Chuckles
read OSC about this @
http://www.ornery.org...
there's more about it too by orscon scott card.
Posted by DarkBlue04 9 years ago
DarkBlue04
Solarman, a point for you as well. Currently, the annual cost of attending UC-Berkeley (Tuition, room, board, and required fees) for an in-state student is $25,308. For an out-of-state student, the annual cost of attendance is $44,928.

While the cost for a Californian to attend UC-Berkeley would be significantly less than attending Stanford (or Harvard or Yale, for that matter) it is a bit of an exaggeration to say the cost would be 1/10.

Source: http://students.berkeley.edu...
Posted by DarkBlue04 9 years ago
DarkBlue04
Just one point of clarification. Lennox, you keep including Columbia as one example of a non-Ivy school with a great deal of prestige. For the record, Columbia is in fact an Ivy League school. The "Ancient Eight" are:

Harvard
Yale
Princeton
Brown
Dartmouth
Columbia
University of Pennsylvania
Cornell

Source: www.ivyleaguesports.com/whatisivy/index.asp

Corroboration: http://en.wikipedia.org...
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
I am in agreement- the Ivy Leagues are slipping

UC Berkeley is a great example of a superior public school, which is about 1/10 the price of IVy leagues

the problem is liberalism infesting the campii.

Read Horowitz' book, THE 100 Most Dangerous professors, which outlines how the out and out commies infiltrated the Universities and like a cancer, are rotting their student bodies with AntiAmerican rhetoric

http://www.amazon.com...
11 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by riddlegrl7 9 years ago
riddlegrl7
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Vote Placed by Derek.Gunn 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by Lysis17 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by Drewseph 9 years ago
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