The Instigator
Loveshismom
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Raymond_Reddington
Con (against)
Winning
18 Points

Resolved: the old Mega Man games are anti-Christian.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
Raymond_Reddington
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/1/2014 Category: Games
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,666 times Debate No: 58436
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (11)
Votes (4)

 

Loveshismom

Pro

I am in favor of the resolved and understand the BOP to be on me. Let's define "anti-Christian":

Opposed to Christianity or Christian values [1].

Rules:

1. Please do not semanticize
2. No trolling
3. No swearing (substitute swearing counts too)
4. No name-calling
5. No getting even somewhat off the subject
6. No definition-twisting

In short, please do not do anything that will turn this debate into a troll debate. Failure to comply will result in an automatic 7-point forfeit.

Structure:

R1: Acceptance/Con may argue first if they would like
R2: Arguments/Rebuttal from Pro if Con argues first
R3-5: Rebuttals

Source:

[1]- http://www.oxforddictionaries.com...
Raymond_Reddington

Con

I accept. Pro has the full burden of proof that the old mega man games are definitely anti-Christian.
Debate Round No. 1
Loveshismom

Pro

Argument 1: Dr. Light: is he bearing Atheist stereotypes about God?

In Game Theory's "Who is Mega Man's true villain?," Mega Man's creator, Dr. Light is shown to be the one causing all the chaos in the old Mega Man games [1]. He seems to be bearing two stereotypes about God:

Stereotype 1: God is a slave owner.

Dr. Light created Mega Man able to make his own decisions [1]. He apparently was not thinking for himself when he was killing Dr. Wily's robots. "He hates it when his creations begin to think for themselves," like the stereotype goes.

Stereotype 2: God is unintelligent.

Dr. Light saw the harm he was doing, and what did he do? He made more robots that caused the same harm as turning Rock into Mega Man did [1].

Argument 2: A negative stereotype borne about Christians by Dr. Light's robots

The "Christian see, Christian do" stereotype is borne by Dr. Light's robots, who, as long as they are trying to stop Wily, appear to have no free thought whatsoever.

Argument 3: Dr. Wily's positive representations... about Satan.

Since Dr. Wily is supposed to be the bad guy, we can consider him to be symbolic of Satan. In Mega Man 9, he convinces them to work for him by making promises he cannot keep, as such, in Christianity, Satan is conceived as doing. They agree to let him reprogram them, which can be symbolic of "selling one's soul to the devil." He also gets Dr. Light's robots to start thinking for themselves, whereas in Satanism, Satan is not a symbol of evil, but of free thought. In basis, the game is taking Satan, editing him to look like a scientist, and making him look like the bad guy when the developers knew someone would prove him innocent. The person to prove his innocence was Matthew "MatPat" Patrick, the host of YouTube's "Game Theory."

Argument 4: Atheist portrayals of Christian views on free thought

In the games, free thought is portrayed as a bad thing. Once Mega Man started actually thinking for himself, he tried to kill Dr. Wily. With all the other evidence hat these games are anti-Christian, this is probably a portrayal of the common atheist belief that Christianity shuns free thought.

Conclusion

Since this series is apparently portraying Satan as good, taking the atheist idea of God and portraying it as a good guy, and promoting the belief that Christianity shuns is anti-free thought, it is anti-Christian.

Source:

[1]-http://m.youtube.com...
Raymond_Reddington

Con

All of my rebuttals will come from the same youtube video that my opponent used. -->

I will point out any possible Christian symbolism throughout
Some background... Basically Dr. Light (God) and Dr. Wiley (the devil) went to the same robotics school where they both became experts in the creation of robots. The greatest difference was that Dr. Light aced robot ethics and Dr. Wiley failed it. The norm when creating robots was to always give them three rules:
  1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
  2. A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
  3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

Dr. Light had a vision; however, and was intensely set on giving his robotic creations the gift of free will. Free will was great and everybody was happy until Dr. Wiley came along and convinced some of his robots to allow Wiley to reprogram them (the fall of mankind). This essentially turned some of these robots (mixed with some of Wiley's creations) into killing machines. In the end megaman (probably best classified as Jesus due to his protagonist role) defeats Wiley and kills him (sentencing satan to eternal damnation). My opponent will say this is anti christian. The story actually seems to stay spot on with Christianity, what the youtube video does is point out certain unfavorable things (like the fall of man) and say it's antichristian, even though it occurs in the bible and the game! I will show that my opponent's arguments do not stand, and are based solely on his interpretation of a video, that is a self admitted theory.

The majority of my opponent's arguments are completely false. Most of the mega man story stays close to the bible story, so any arguments my opponent gives against mega man can equally be applied to the bible. A direct imitation that supports free will and good vs. evil is about as far as it gets from making fun of it.

Stereotype 1
This argument is pretty far from the truth. The entire premise of the story is based on Dr. Light being pro free will. If you don't believe me watch the video.

Stereotype 2
The argument doesn't stand because first of all, he attended the Robot Institute of Technology (RIT), and secondly all of his endeavors were to give robots free will, which is definitely a pro christian value. Either way it is comparable to the Christian god still creating humans, so if anything it is simply based on biblical stories, saying that one is making fun of the other is refusing the fact that both are pretty much the same. Since nobody condemns god as unintelligent for continuing to bring humans into existence, we can hardly say that mega man is making fun of the bible by having Dr. Light create more robots.

Argument 2
I'm wondering if my opponent even watched the video, because it outright says several times that Dr. Light goes against the norm by giving his robots free will.

Argument 3
Wiley was never considered innocent, ever. He actually reprogrammed robots to do his bidding since Dr. Light had given them free will. Even if this were true it would be comparable to the tree of knowledge of good and evil which satan convinced eve to eat from. It's not making fun of it, it's basically a direct imitation. We could apply Pro's "logic" to the genesis story. Satan convinced Eve to gain knowledge of good and evil promoting "free thought". The logic is flawed.

Argument 4
So Mega Man (Jesus) tried to kill the bad guy, Wiley (Satan). This is imitating judgement day when satan will be sentenced to die. How exactly is this discouraging free will or any other Christian value?

Conclusion
My opponent claims that the game portrays satan (Wiley) as good and god (Dr. Light) as bad. Here is an excerpt from the wikipedia page.
"Doctor Thomas Light, known in Japan as Doctor Thomas Wright (|88;}40;}10;|73;}39;}21;|52;|88; T!3;masu Raito?), is depicted as an aged scientist, who is a peerless robotocist. He is the creator of protagonist Mega Man and several other robots. While a pacifist, he reluctantly recognizes that the use of force can be a necessity."
"Doctor Albert W. Wily (Dr.}27;|52;}22;}40; Dokutā Wairī?) was originally Dr. Light's partner, and helped him create a series of humanoid robots to help mankind, such as the boy robot Rock and the construction robot Guts Man, though the world ignored his contribution. Out of jealousy for Light, he reprogrammed the robots, with the exception of Rock, to assist him in taking over the world. He was however defeated by Rock, who voluntarily upgraded to the combat robot "Mega Man". Wily returned as the antagonist in subsequent titles of the main series with a different scheme each time, only to be defeated and surrender to Mega Man at the end."

It is incredibly obvious that the mega man games are your stereotypical good vs. evil pro free will video games not only supporting christian values but basically imitating biblical stories. The fact that anyone could claim otherwise is absurd, and insulting of the Christian religion due to it's extreme similarities to the Mega Man games.
Debate Round No. 2
Loveshismom

Pro

I will demonstrate that by using the same video I did, my opponent has refuted and perhaps debunked his own arguments.

Rebuttal 1: Con argued: "The greatest difference was that Dr. Light aced robot ethics and Dr. Wiley failed it."

Actually, as demonstrated in the YouTube video we both used, Dr. Light was terrible at roboethics.

"A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law."


Actually, because Mega Man had free will, he disobeyed his creator, so if Mega Man is symbolic of Jesus, as mentioned later in your argument, then we are basically saying that Jesus is supposed to be a sinner. This goes against Christian beliefs.

Rebuttal 2: Con argued: "Dr. Light had a vision; however, and was intensely set on giving his robotic creations the gift of free will. Free will was great and everybody was happy until Dr. Wiley came along and convinced some of his robots to allow Wiley to reprogram them (the fall of mankind)."

The game seems to be portraying it as a bad idea for Dr. Light (God) to give robots (mankind) free will, which is most definitely anti-Christian of the game.

Rebuttal 3: Con argued: "This essentially turned some of these robots (mixed with some of Wiley's creations) into killing machines. In the end megaman (probably best classified as Jesus due to his protagonist role) defeats Wiley and kills him (sentencing satan to eternal damnation)."

I discussed this in rebuttal 1. Trying to kill Wily was not what Dr. Light wanted Mega Man to do, which means that if he is supposed to represent Jesus, then the games are calling Jesus a sinner.

Rebuttal 4: Con argued: "The story actually seems to stay spot on with Christianity, what the youtube video does is point out certain unfavorable things (like the fall of man) and say it's antichristian, even though it occurs in the bible and the game!"

Actually, since Dr. Light was wrong to make autonomous robots, as demonstrated in the video we both used, it means that Wily was right to trick his enemy's robots and is saying the fall of man was good. Also, if Wily is a symbol of Satan, that makes the series pro-Satan.

Stereotype 1

The difference between the biblical creation story and the Mega Man creation story is that God, being omniscient, actually knew that Satan would trick his creations into rebellion.

Stereotype 2

"The argument doesn't stand because first of all, he attended the Robot Institute of Technology (RIT), and secondly all of his endeavors were to give robots free will, which is definitely a pro christian value."

Dr. Light was wrong+MatPat is right=the games are anti-Christian.

Argument 2

"I'm wondering if my opponent even watched the video, because it outright says several times that Dr. Light goes against the norm by giving his robots free will."

Of course I watched it, and it demonstrated Dr. Light as being wrong to give his robots free will.

Argument 3

"Wiley was never considered innocent, ever. He actually reprogrammed robots to do his bidding since Dr. Light had given them free will. Even if this were true it would be comparable to the tree of knowledge of good and evil which satan convinced eve to eat from. It's not making fun of it, it's basically a direct imitation. We could apply Pro's 'logic' to the genesis story. Satan convinced Eve to gain knowledge of good and evil promoting 'free thought'. The logic is flawed."

Another argument refuted by not arguing against the YouTube video. Dr. Light was wrong+/=Wily is innocent= the game is pro-Satan= it's anti-Christian.

Argument 4

"So Mega Man (Jesus) tried to kill the bad guy, Wiley (Satan). This is imitating judgement day when satan will be sentenced to die. How exactly is this discouraging free will or any other Christian value?"

Another argument refuted just by using he same YouTube video I did. If Wily is innocent, then Mega Man was wrong to try and kill him, even if not subject to Asimov's laws.
Raymond_Reddington

Con

1. There is a huge problem in Pro's argument here, and that is Christianity supports "free will" over god programming us to be perfect. Free will is in no way putting down Christianity, quite the opposite in fact. If the Christian god considered free will worth the risk, then the same thing being done in a video game is imitation, not attack. The portrayal of free will in the video games is similar to the portrayal of free will in the bible. It is held up as one of the greatest gifts to humanity, as in the video games, free will is given to the robots as an incredible gift. There is no anti-christian sentiment here. There is also no evidence of megaman ever disobeying his creator given in the video. Megaman never symbollically "sinned" in the video games, and nothing of that kind is said in the video. He did attempt to kill doctor wily, but that is not antichristian since Jesus will kill satan. This is just a theory, that is honestly speculation, with zero evidence to back it up.

2. Nowhere in the video games is free will displayed as a bad thing. It is not said in the video game and my opponent gives zero evidence to support this.

3. It's about as antichristian as jesus damning satan in the end days. Dr. Light gave Megaman free will so that Megaman could make the choice. It is never stated that Light was against killing Wily.

4. The entire video is a theory. Nothing in the actual games says that Light was wrong to give robots free will. The point you are trying to make is that free will is unethical when it could potentially cause harm. This is not an supporting the resolution, because you could apply it equally to Christianity. The bible portrays free will as a gift, not as an immoral problem. The Megaman games doing the exact same thing is not insulting to Christianity, it is a copy of Christianity. Wily's reprogramming of the robots is the entire evil side of the plot. It is the development of the problem. Wily changing the robots, or the fall of man, is not portrayed in a favorable light in any way. My opponent has not provided any evidence, just speculation.

Stereotype 1
I'm not entirely sure if this is an argument for the resolution, or an argument against Christianity. Yes the christian god would be omniscient, and know what satan would do, but my opponent never says how Megaman is insulting christianity. There is no argument here.

Stereotype 2
My opponent just gives an opinion here. There is no evidence given.

Argument 2
Nowhere in the game is Dr. Light considered bad for giving robots free will, and the video just speculates that free will may have caused some damage, but free will occasionally causes damage in the christian bible as well, so there is no reason that this is antichristian. It's also important to note that the robots were not evil until Wily reprogrammed them.

Argument 3
My opponents argument- "Another argument refuted by not arguing against the YouTube video. Dr. Light was wrong+/=Wily is innocent= the game is pro-Satan= it's anti-Christian."
My opponent provides yet another unsupported opinion. If Dr. Wily represents satan, and dr. wily is the bad guy in the series, then it follows that satan is portrayed as bad. Dr. Light is considered a good guy, presumably represents god, and gives his robots the gift of free will, then it follows that Dr. Light is portrayed as good. It's a pretty simple concept.

Argument 4
What? Where exactly is Wily portrayed as innocent? He reprograms good robots into killing machines. Dr. Wily, according to Wikipedia, "Out of jealousy for Light, he reprogrammed the robots, with the exception of Rock, to assist him in taking over the world." (http://en.wikipedia.org...) Rock is the previous name of Megaman. He is the definition of evil in this video game series.

Conclusion
My opponent has yet to provide actual evidence that the megaman games are actually antichristian. He is relying purely on speculation.
Debate Round No. 3
Loveshismom

Pro

Loveshismom forfeited this round.
Raymond_Reddington

Con

My opponent has shown that the megaman games are very similar to Christianity, but has failed to show how they are anti-christianity in any way whatsoever. The forfeit is disappointing.
Debate Round No. 4
Loveshismom

Pro

I was arguing based off of a technicality.
Raymond_Reddington

Con

My argument has yet to present evidence. Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 5
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by TedTheAtheist 2 years ago
TedTheAtheist
Christianity is evil, so who cares?
In fact, all theistic religion is evil to all of mankind.
Reason and logic should replace.
Posted by Loveshismom 2 years ago
Loveshismom
@9spaceking that's a great idea. I think I'll try harder.
Posted by Loveshismom 2 years ago
Loveshismom
If they're moar than 20 years old then yeah
Posted by LogicalLunatic 2 years ago
LogicalLunatic
How about Megaman Star Force? Those games were fun, but when I think back on them I realize that they were probably very stupid games.
Posted by Loveshismom 2 years ago
Loveshismom
Just a very understandable GAME THEORY
Posted by Forte 2 years ago
Forte
It seems like this is basically becoming an argument over how to interpret a youtuber's interpretation of the MM franchise.

But that's just a theory, A GAME THEORY
Posted by Loveshismom 2 years ago
Loveshismom
I guess the MBN doesn't count as old
Posted by Loveshismom 2 years ago
Loveshismom
@ Preston, what does ET have to do with Mega Man games?
Posted by Preston 2 years ago
Preston
ET is based of Christianity
Posted by Loveshismom 2 years ago
Loveshismom
Don't know what it is
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by leonitus2464 2 years ago
leonitus2464
LoveshismomRaymond_ReddingtonTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: pro never proved anything that could be linked to Christianity so all pro did was make connections that aren't there.
Vote Placed by Splenic_Warrior 2 years ago
Splenic_Warrior
LoveshismomRaymond_ReddingtonTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Con gets conduct due to Pro's forfeited round, and arguments because Pro pretty much conceded.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
LoveshismomRaymond_ReddingtonTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Concession
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
LoveshismomRaymond_ReddingtonTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: ff and failure to provide anything in the final round. You should try this hard on your other debates, loveshismom.